Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Aces2w1n]

Here's a hand I butchered from the other night. I meant to bet less and then jam river. What would be the best sizing here?

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database

NL Holdem $2(BB)
BB ($205.2)
UTG ($244.5)
HJ ($304)
CO ($240.2)
BTN ($200)
HERO ($233.5)

Dealt to Hero Q<font color='red'>♥</font> K<font color='red'>♥</font>

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Raises To $6 (Rem. Stack: 234.2), BTN Calls $6 (Rem. Stack: 194), HERO Raises To $25 (Rem. Stack: 207.5), BB Folds, CO Calls $20 (Rem. Stack: 214.2), BTN Calls $20 (Rem. Stack: 174)

Flop ($80) Q<font color='black'>♠</font> 2<font color='black'>♣</font> 3<font color='red'>♥</font>
HERO Bets $26 (Rem. Stack: 181.5), CO Calls $26 (Rem. Stack: 188.2), BTN Folds

Turn ($132) Q<font color='black'>♠</font> 2<font color='black'>♣</font> 3<font color='red'>♥</font> K<font color='black'>♣</font>
HERO Bets $66 (Rem. Stack: 115.5), CO Folds

HERO wins $194

Check raise perhaps... if hes on a draw we may induce a shove

 

[Entrik]

Thank you an interesting thing)

 

[John A]

Well I'd hardly consider it butchered.
There just wasn't a hand good enough to continue against you.
Assuming the river bricks the only hand I can only see stacking off to a shove that we are beating is AK and maybe AcQc QcJc, but those hands probably call the $66 on the turn anyway.
I can't see any realistic 2 pair combo's other than the chop.
AA seems unlikely.

So he calls flop with 22 33 77-JJ QJs KQ AQ AK and slow played KK AA QQ but I'd expect those latter big starting hands to 4bet pre most of the time, especially at 6 max and against someone like you.

Lets say you made it $30-40 on the turn, firstly what's calling $30-40 that isn't calling $66? Qx, but Qx doesn't usually call a shove?
I think all his single underpairs fold when the K brings two overcards.
Yeah 66 does look a bit big and we miss out on the odd $40 maybe
66 its going to make the pot around 250 with 115 behind but all the more reason to call it off with AK. Even if you made it 40 the pot is still 200ish with 140 behind.


I've still got plenty of free time so I'd like to help review the course material. It would probably do me good anyway.

I did butcher that hand. It was a little bit of a trick question because I should have bet either really small or checked. And with his aggression, I should have checked. But I like the analysis... good job!

Hit me up on the skype channel and I'll provide the info on the content. I'm still organizing, evaluating and adding more right now. Thanks Bruce.

 

[John A]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $11.93 (59.7 bb)
BB: $7.86 (39.3 bb)
UTG+1: $10.18 (50.9 bb)
UTG+2: $21.55 (107.8 bb)
MP1: $36.51 (182.6 bb)VPIP: 42, PFR: 14, 3B: 19, AF: 3.6, Hands: 161
Hero (MP2): $22.47 (112.4 bb)
MP3: $22.60 (113 bb)
CO: $20.13 (100.7 bb)
BTN: $23.01 (115.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q

Q

2 folds, MP1 calls $0.20, Hero raises to $0.72, 3 folds, SB calls $0.62, BB folds, MP1 calls $0.52

Flop: ($2.36) 8

9

7

(3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets $1.12, Hero calls $1.12, SB folds

Turn: ($4.60) 2

(2 players)
MP1 bets $2.18, Hero calls $2.18

River: ($8.96) A

(2 players)
MP1 bets $8.52
Hero?

There are definitely some sets/straights possible and maybe Axs, but i'd also expect a large amount of whiffed draws here.

Looking at this hand maybe a raise on the turn might have been OK

What does that flop bet sizing telling you about where his range is at?

And yes, you should be raising that turn all day.

 

[rhombus]

What does that flop bet sizing telling you about where his range is at?

And yes, you should be raising that turn all day.

Usually weak especially on wet flop

Although see alot of streamers at higher stakes cash and MTTs and the players they play against CBET about 35 - 40% of pot and say it's so they can bet their entire cbetting range??
Is this the new optimal strategy or just a phase

 

[Figaroo2]

What does that flop bet sizing telling you about where his range is at?
And yes, you should be raising that turn all day.

Well he's so wide and aggro I really have no idea what he has, from what I recall he was leading out regularly.
The sizing is pretty ambigious tbh he could be drawing or trying to sweeten it, its a dynamic board he could easily be quite strong here.
If he was semi bluff drawing I might expect a check raise or a bigger lead out.
Should we raise flop or turn to clarify on these boards? and if we raise are you folding to a reraise/shove?
I did call this bet by the way.

 

[rhombus]

Hand 1 WTF does villain have
Hand 2 Do I fold Pre or on flop or on turn lol

Hand1
poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $5.07 (101.4 bb)
BB: $13.68 (273.6 bb)
UTG: $8.96 (179.2 bb)
MP: $7.55 (151 bb)
CO: $2.43 (48.6 bb)
BTN: $5 (100 bb) 36/29 3B16.7 AG6.0 AG%60 14 hands

Preflop: Hero is SB with J

K

3 folds, BTN raises to $0.12, Hero raises to $0.35, BB folds, BTN calls $0.23

Flop: ($0.75) 9

K

2

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.32, BTN raises to $0.64, Hero calls $0.32

Turn: ($2.03) T

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.86, BTN raises to $4.01 and is all-in, Hero ??



Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $11.50 (230 bb)
BB: $5.53 (110.6 bb)
UTG: $10.29 (205.8 bb)
MP: $6.45 (129 bb)
CO: $7.73 (154.6 bb)
BTN: $6.04 (120.8 bb) 14/14 3B 0.0 AG3.0 AG%50

Preflop: Hero is SB with J

A

3 folds, BTN raises to $0.13, Hero raises to $0.44, BB folds, BTN raises to $1.20, Hero calls $0.76

Flop: ($2.45) 8

Q

J

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.22, Hero calls $1.22

Turn: ($4.89) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.62 and is all-in, Hero ???

 

[Figaroo2]

Rhom I take it this is zoom as this sort of over aggro play happens all the time.
KJ his AF is 6. His weakness is playing too many hands and betting too much with weak holdings. These players force you to gamble but you have to take a stand and this hand is good enough to call his sorry ass down.
I'm not sure why you lead the turn into him but chances are he's trying to use the last bit of fold equity/leverage to get you out of the pot. You are going to be beaten some times but if you choose to go to war with a trouble hand like KJ then expect some trouble!

AJ this player is much tighter I'd give up on the flop as played. I also don't 3bet hands like AJ suited from the blinds for exactly the reason that you don't want to have to face a 4bet with it.
This is where the polarised range is great for facing a 4bet you can easily fold your junk and play back with your premiums. These top 4-10% hands do great against the late position opening ranges so I just flat them. I might 3bet the hand against someone who is loose and rarely folds to 3bets and rarely 4bets as it's going to stand up ok against those ranges

 

[John A]

Well he's so wide and aggro I really have no idea what he has, from what I recall he was leading out regularly.
The sizing is pretty ambigious tbh he could be drawing or trying to sweeten it, its a dynamic board he could easily be quite strong here.
If he was semi bluff drawing I might expect a check raise or a bigger lead out.
Should we raise flop or turn to clarify on these boards? and if we raise are you folding to a reraise/shove?
I did call this bet by the way.

I'm going to quote Rhom here:
"Usually weak especially on wet flop

Although see alot of streamers at higher stakes cash and MTTs and the players they play against CBET about 35 - 40% of pot and say it's so they can bet their entire cbetting range??
Is this the new optimal strategy or just a phase "

You don't fine the bolded to be true?

And as far as Rhom's question about bet sizing, well ~40% does allow you to bet your whole range, so mathematically it's sound. I think this is happening more in MTT's than cash games though because there's just too much to do in cash games to get someone off a lot of their weak/mid range hands.

 

[Figaroo2]

I'm going to quote Rhom here:
"Usually weak especially on wet flop
You don't fine the bolded to be true?.

I was crushed it was a pot sweetner

 

[John A]

I was crushed it was a pot sweetner

Well, we're not talking about this specific hand, we're talking about overall in general. What are those size bets MW on that kind of texture?

 

[rhombus]

Rhom I take it this is zoom as this sort of over aggro play happens all the time.
KJ his AF is 6. His weakness is playing too many hands and betting too much with weak holdings. These players force you to gamble but you have to take a stand and this hand is good enough to call his sorry ass down.
I'm not sure why you lead the turn into him but chances are he's trying to use the last bit of fold equity/leverage to get you out of the pot. You are going to be beaten some times but if you choose to go to war with a trouble hand like KJ then expect some trouble!

AJ this player is much tighter I'd give up on the flop as played. I also don't 3bet hands like AJ suited from the blinds for exactly the reason that you don't want to have to face a 4bet with it.
This is where the polarised range is great for facing a 4bet you can easily fold your junk and play back with your premiums. These top 4-10% hands do great against the late position opening ranges so I just flat them. I might 3bet the hand against someone who is loose and rarely folds to 3bets and rarely 4bets as it's going to stand up ok against those ranges

Looks like I did something right.

Hand 1. He's so full of $h1t so I called and he had 5h7h

Hand 2. Think i called as we were both quite deep 120bbs. Flop beating all his AK, TT, 99 77 etc so think call ok maybe?? then folded on turn

 

[rhombus]

I'm going to quote Rhom here:
"Usually weak especially on wet flop

Although see alot of streamers at higher stakes cash and MTTs and the players they play against CBET about 35 - 40% of pot and say it's so they can bet their entire cbetting range??
Is this the new optimal strategy or just a phase "

You don't fine the bolded to be true?

And as far as Rhom's question about bet sizing, well ~40% does allow you to bet your whole range, so mathematically it's sound. I think this is happening more in MTT's than cash games though because there's just too much to do in cash games to get someone off a lot of their weak/mid range hands.

Did you mean, you don't find the bolded to be true?

At the micros weak bets usually mean weak hands or weak draws. They are almost like blocker bets so they can draw cheaply.

Occasionally the better players do it especially if against an aggressive opponent to induce, but these players are in the minority.

re the question. MTTs mostly watching Tonkaaa he bets usually about 35% and alot of the players he plays against do the same.

In cash Ive seen Ryan Riske (PokerWithRiske) do it alot at the micros on his bankroll challenge and he absolutely crushes the games admittedly running like the proverbial Kenyan on Roids!!!

His main game is $100NL Zoom and $200 Zoom at about 4bb/100
but at the micros he's up at about 20bb/100

they both tend to bet alot flops around 30-40% then Turn CBET nearer 60-70%. If the flop CBET is mathematically sound, what about the Turn CBETS?

 

[John A]

Looks like I did something right.

Hand 1. He's so full of $h1t so I called and he had 5h7h

Hand 2. Think i called as we were both quite deep 120bbs. Flop beating all his AK, TT, 99 77 etc so think call ok maybe?? then folded on turn

Nh 1, and hand 2 maybe bet turn, but hard to say w/o seeing the whole hand.

 

[John A]

Did you mean, you don't find the bolded to be true?

At the micros weak bets usually mean weak hands or weak draws. They are almost like blocker bets so they can draw cheaply.

Occasionally the better players do it especially if against an aggressive opponent to induce, but these players are in the minority.

re the question. MTTs mostly watching Tonkaaa he bets usually about 35% and alot of the players he plays against do the same.

In cash Ive seen Ryan Riske (PokerWithRiske) do it alot at the micros on his bankroll challenge and he absolutely crushes the games admittedly running like the proverbial Kenyan on Roids!!!

His main game is $100NL Zoom and $200 Zoom at about 4bb/100
but at the micros he's up at about 20bb/100

they both tend to bet alot flops around 30-40% then Turn CBET nearer 60-70%. If the flop CBET is mathematically sound, what about the Turn CBETS?

If you're talking to me about the bolded... no. I'm saying that it means a weak bet generally, especially on a wet board.

And I already answered your question earlier. I'll re-paste:


And as far as Rhom's question about c-bet sizing, well ~40% does allow you to bet your whole range, so mathematically it's sound. I think this is happening more in MTT's than cash games though because there's just too much to do in cash games to get someone off a lot of their weak/mid range hands.

 

[John A]

I want to gather some reviews about my coaching content, and coaching in general. If anyone has anything to say here I'd appreciate it. I'm going to put it up on PZ w/ the new free course I'm finishing putting together. ty...

 

[John A]

 

[rhombus]

WTF, Where did you get a pic of the wife

 

[rhombus]

Nh 1, and hand 2 maybe bet turn, but hard to say w/o seeing the whole hand.

Hand 1 and 2 posted here https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...er-vol-i-study-group-227214/post-3574711.html

 

[rhombus]

If you're talking to me about the bolded... no. I'm saying that it means a weak bet generally, especially on a wet board.

And I already answered your question earlier. I'll re-paste:


And as far as Rhom's question about c-bet sizing, well ~40% does allow you to bet your whole range, so mathematically it's sound. I think this is happening more in MTT's than cash games though because there's just too much to do in cash games to get someone off a lot of their weak/mid range hands.

You don't fine the bolded to be true?
Just checking as you said fine instead of find and wasnt 100% sure

Also added an extra part as you said mathematical ok to bet 40% on flop is it then good to inccrease to maybe 60-70% on turn

 

[rhombus]

I want to gather some reviews about my coaching content, and coaching in general. If anyone has anything to say here I'd appreciate it. I'm going to put it up on PZ w/ the new free course I'm finishing putting together. ty...

Wasn't sure what you meant by coaching content - Are you referring to software on your site, e.g. leakbuster pokerdrills etc


Review of coaching advice!

Very Good.

Clear concise answers with great input and respected by 90% of the forum members.

With so much contrasting advice you seem to cut through and separate the good stuff from the bs!!

 

[rhombus]

Call River even though his hand looks face up. Maybe other options throughout the hand
Think C/R flop is wrong but maybe Bet fold river???


Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $2.12 (106 bb)
BB: $1.63 (81.5 bb) 40/40 AG 4.0 5 hands
UTG: $2.32 (116 bb)
Hero (MP): $5.35 (267.5 bb)
CO: $2 (100 bb)
BTN: $2.53 (126.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T

T

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.06, CO folds, BTN raises to $0.18, SB folds, BB calls $0.16, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.55) 2

3

6

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.32, BB calls $0.32, Hero calls $0.32

Turn: ($1.51) K

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($1.51) 7

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.45, BB folds, Hero ????

 

[Figaroo2]

Call River even though his hand looks face up. Maybe other options throughout the hand
Think C/R flop is wrong but maybe Bet fold river???

Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $2.12 (106 bb)
BB: $1.63 (81.5 bb) 40/40 AG 4.0 5 hands
UTG: $2.32 (116 bb)
Hero (MP): $5.35 (267.5 bb)
CO: $2 (100 bb)
BTN: $2.53 (126.5 bb)
Preflop: Hero is MP with T

T

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.06, CO folds, BTN raises to $0.18, SB folds, BB calls $0.16, Hero calls $0.12
Flop: ($0.55) 2

3

6

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.32, BB calls $0.32, Hero calls $0.32
Turn: ($1.51) K

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks
River: ($1.51) 7

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.45, BB folds, Hero ????

Yes I'd call, You are getting 3.35 to 1 so you don't have to be right very often here to show a profit.
I think check call is correct, if you bet it appears unlikely that anything worse will call and you just fold out his air that he might bluff with.
If button had a king he should be betting it for value on the turn.
His sizing is small enough to be either as cheap a bluff as he thinks he can get away with, with something like AQ, AJs. Or small thin value from QQ JJ.
I don't think he will fold QQ or JJ to a river raise though as you don't rep anything after checking flop and turn.

 

[John A]

Wasn't sure what you meant by coaching content - Are you referring to software on your site, e.g. leakbuster pokerdrills etc


Review of coaching advice!

Very Good.

Clear concise answers with great input and respected by 90% of the forum members.

With so much contrasting advice you seem to cut through and separate the good stuff from the bs!!

Yes, I just meant a concise quotable testimonial. I want to put some of them together for the training course. I'm not a fan of testimonials, but I'm told people like them.

 

[John A]

You don't fine the bolded to be true?
Just checking as you said fine instead of find and wasnt 100% sure

Also added an extra part as you said mathematical ok to bet 40% on flop is it then good to inccrease to maybe 60-70% on turn

Yes, exactly.