'Black Friday' and associated fallout megathread

dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
Agree that it is top 3 or 4 from a players POV, which is what really matters (Stars, Cereus, and soon Yatahay also are great software packages).
Cereus? Are you serious? (Ha, see what I did there?) Cereus software was some of the worst ever IMO. I'd take a ratty old Merge skin client any day.

Because the business was generating income other than by merely selling management positions, I don't think PONZI scheme is a correct description of what went down. Ponzi's, typically, sell the rights to sell rights to sell rights to sell.... = Pyramid schemes.
The term "Ponzi Scheme" is actually most often used to describe a scenario where funds from new investors are used to pay off old investors, which is quite different than a pyramid scheme. In FT's case, it has been alleged (and seems obvious) that they used player deposits to run the business. So while I agree it's not quite "ponzi" it is a closely parallel case of misappropriating funds they shouldn't have been able to touch to fund other areas of their operation (and being at least coy of not downright dishonest about doing so).

So "ponzi" seems an apt term to me, and fits FT much better than "pyramid" does.
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
The Cereus software is on par with Stars and Tilt....IMO. Yatahay has a great groundwork and might evolve to those high standards. If Stars is 100, all 4 of those are above 90, with Carbon at 74, bodog at 68, and Zen at 10. Zynga is in a tie with Zen.:mad:
 
ALL IN CLUBS

ALL IN CLUBS

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Total posts
1,423
Chips
0
Cereus? Are you serious? (Ha, see what I did there?) Cereus software was some of the worst ever IMO. I'd take a ratty old Merge skin client any day.


The term "Ponzi Scheme" is actually most often used to describe a scenario where funds from new investors are used to pay off old investors, which is quite different than a pyramid scheme. In FT's case, it has been alleged (and seems obvious) that they used player deposits to run the business. So while I agree it's not quite "ponzi" it is a closely parallel case of misappropriating funds they shouldn't have been able to touch to fund other areas of their operation (and being at least coy of not downright dishonest about doing so).

So "ponzi" seems an apt term to me, and fits FT much better than "pyramid" does.

What ratty?? RPM skin rocks imo. And they have instant chat with customer service
 
the Styb

the Styb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Total posts
316
Awards
1
Chips
0
From what I can find, it looks like FT's KGC connection is more of a backup than a solution to their current crisis. Records indicate FT received a secondary license from the KGC in July, 2010. This came just two months after KGC and AGCC signed a "Memorandum of Understanding" regarding the sharing of info on past, present and future operators. While the agreement itself remains secret, KGC has released a statement that they are communicating with AGCC regarding FT.

Now, KGC could greenlight FT which would be interesting enough, but if after investigation, KGC decides to revoke FT's secondary license, what would that tell the online poker community? At that point Tilt's only option might just be selling off the software and licensing proprietary games like (ugh!) Rush "poker". Either way, it's going to be fascinating to watch!
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
What ratty?? RPM skin rocks imo. And they have instant chat with customer service
Agreed, although I'm fond of Lock. :) Some skins are better than others, however, and I was attempting to compare the worst Merge skin to Cereus. That said, the best Merge skin is still light years from FT or Stars, though.

Bodog would have been a better example. As much as I hate Bodog's software, they're still better than Cereus, IMO. Cereus had to be one of, if not THE, worst client software I've ever used. Amateur development all the way through.
 
jazzaxe

jazzaxe

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Total posts
1,050
Awards
1
Chips
0
I can't find the original quote, but Dwann is going to give back all of his FTP winnings if the players are not paid. To whom? Certainly not FTP. If so, that won't help the unpaid players. Unless he figures out whom he won all the money from, what is the point of the statement?
 
okeedokalee

okeedokalee

Glory To Ukraine
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Total posts
5,707
Awards
22
NZ
Chips
853
Developments, good or bad!

Just a few minutes ago, AgentMarco from QuadJacks.com tweeted “Source from FTP: ‘Jack Binion is now the company’s investor.’ That’s all I heard.”

Then a few minutes later, he made the following post over on 2+2 forums:

Guys, you are all right to be skeptical. I am skeptical too. I don’t know this to be true. It’s just what I have heard, and now you’ve heard it too. Like I have said in my tweets, all I can say is that this source has been right in the past. Could it be wrong/misinformed this time? Of course.

In fact, I am not even sure what the statement means. Does it mean a deal has actually been finalized? I don’t know. I am trying to find out more.

I have shared this because, in good faith, I want you guys to know what I have heard. Then hopefully we can discuss it together. If you choose to read my very literal tweets as “Binion definitely owns Full Tilt now, swear to God,” then go right ahead, but you cannot say I put you up to it.


And yes, I am well aware of yesterday’s fiasco with the reopening unlicensed bit. (It obviously did not happen, but all I swore even then was that the source was a trustworthy industry insider.) I am also aware of how much accidents like these damage my reputation, which is why I never consciously talk completely out of my ass like some of you have suggested. But I will continue to disclose the things I hear, as long as I feel confident that these are things being said by individuals you’d want to hear from, if I could tell you who they were. I hope that some of you will appreciate this.


These are very turbulent times, and especially in Full Tilt’s situation, events/decisions are probably changing faster than we can keep up with them. It is not always easy to report on what will ultimately and invariably happen. But we are trying our hardest.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
I can't find the original quote, but Dwann is going to give back all of his FTP winnings if the players are not paid. To whom? Certainly not FTP. If so, that won't help the unpaid players. Unless he figures out whom he won all the money from, what is the point of the statement?

It's good PR for him. Duh.

FWIW I 100% believe he means what he says, even if he's not really sure how exactly he'd go about making good on that promise. And I 100% believe that he's hoping he never does have to make good on that promise.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
Just a few minutes ago, AgentMarco from QuadJacks.com tweeted “Source from FTP: ‘Jack Binion is now the company’s investor.’ That’s all I heard.”

QuadJacks = irresponsible arseclowns IMO. They desperately need to stick to what they're good at, which is parody songs and photoshops.
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
I can't find the original quote, but Dwann is going to give back all of his FTP winnings if the players are not paid. To whom? Certainly not FTP. If so, that won't help the unpaid players. Unless he figures out whom he won all the money from, what is the point of the statement?
As I recall, he promised to put up $1M towards paying back players, and was encouraging other FT pros to put up money as well. Not "all of his FTP winnings," which are far more than $1M.
 
the Styb

the Styb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Total posts
316
Awards
1
Chips
0
As I recall, he promised to put up $1M towards paying back players, and was encouraging other FT pros to put up money as well. Not "all of his FTP winnings," which are far more than $1M.

Wow! A whole million? I guess .83% is a start! Now they just need 119 more FT pros to join him! :)
 
ALL IN CLUBS

ALL IN CLUBS

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Total posts
1,423
Chips
0
Not his winnings. He said what Full Tilt paid him as a FT pro.
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
Wow! A whole million? I guess .83% is a start! Now they just need 119 more FT pros to join him! :)
True, but when you consider that he doesn't really have to, I think it's a generous gesture. He's not the one that ran FT into the ground. It wouldn't surprise me if FT owes all of the red pros (well, except maybe Howard and Jesus) money as well.
 
the Styb

the Styb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Total posts
316
Awards
1
Chips
0
True, but when you consider that he doesn't really have to, I think it's a generous gesture. He's not the one that ran FT into the ground. It wouldn't surprise me if FT owes all of the red pros (well, except maybe Howard and Jesus) money as well.

Oh, I know. Just injecting a little larfs!
 
the Styb

the Styb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Total posts
316
Awards
1
Chips
0
Sounds promising, would $150 mill be a steal for somebody wanting the business as a gambling platform.:jd4:

Nope. Consider: FT owes US players anywhere from $100-150 million. (High and low estimates I've seen.) Add in advertising, FT pro pacification money, server and employee costs and cashouts for "X" number of disgruntled non-US players who might be jumping ship and you'd be bankrupt before you even got the servers back up.

Rumours that FT was looking for $200 million for a 50% stake makes me think the monies owed to US players are around the $100-120 million mark, which would leave them a modest stack of capital to work with. If the times article is true and they've sold a majority stake, I can't see them relinquishing control for less than $300-350 million. Unless transferring control is one of the remedies AGCC is imposing, in which case we may be looking at a fire sale.

Of course, there's still the $3 BILLION that Uncle Sam is trying to extort from them…

Until we know more, just pray that the "Euro Investors" aren't Al Quaeda or the Hellenic Republic of Greece!!
 
absoluthamm

absoluthamm

<==Poker Face
Silver Level
Joined
May 5, 2008
Total posts
5,692
Awards
1
Chips
0
I can't see them relinquishing control for less than $300-350 million.
You have to keep in mind that they could potentially be worth jack shit in a couple months time if they don't get any investors, so that could easily bring up a "short sale" situation where they may be willing to go much lower. It would be a completely different story if
a.)BF didn't happen
b.)They didn't get their license completely pulled.

Then they would have some negotiating room to work with, but someone like Binion could easily pull the "OK, fine, deal's off, have fun with bankruptcy...". I don't think the industry like this will have all that many people fighting over making an investment into a company that is ablaze atm.
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
Verified the L.A. Times article was in the newspaper.

If someone got control of FT, what is their first move? IMHO?
Fire all the pros. Especially the ones who took too much money 'on spec' out of the FT coffers.

The strength of FT was/is in it's software, not in it's promo hogging pros. There is still time (again IMHO) to reclaim a decent and rebuild-able reputation , IF they publicly announce this fast and give a reasonable back story as to why it took so long. Also contingent on getting back up quickly. I think days rather than weeks. If they are down more than a month, say 'Hasta la vista baby'! FT would have to essentially start all over again, albeit with great software, needing little if any (software debugging) rebuild time.

One of the things they could consider is allowing us with a balance on the site to leave it there, perhaps gathering interest, for some extended period of time. Explaining to us that we are indeed investing in FT's future. I don't have enough to be really bothered if I lose it, a bit less than $100, and would welcome the opportunity to leave it there for a while. If there was some light at the end of the tunnel, like US legislation and regulation that suggests this superior product, without the greedy SOB's who caused the problem, might re-emerge to the US market. I know, extreme long shot, so maybe I would want odds. 3-1 doesn't sound outrageous, does it?:cool:
 
Last edited:
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Verified the L.A. Times article was in the newspaper.

If someone got control of FT, what is their first move? IMHO?
Fire all the pros. Especially the ones who took too much money 'on spec' out of the FT coffers.

The strength of FT was/is in it's software, not in it's promo hogging pros. There is still time (again IMHO) to reclaim a decent and rebuild-able reputation , IF they publicly announce this fast and give a reasonable back story as to why it took so long. Also contingent on getting back up quickly. I think days rather than weeks. If they are down more than a month, say 'Hasta la vista baby'! FT would have to essentially start all over again, albeit with great software, needing little if any (software debugging) rebuild time.

One of the things they could consider is allowing us with a balance on the site to leave it there, perhaps gathering interest, for some extended period of time. Explaining to us that we are indeed investing in FT's future. I don't have enough to be really bothered if I lose it, a bit less than $100, and would welcome the opportunity to leave it there for a while. If there was some light at the end of the tunnel, like US legislation and regulation that suggests this superior product, without the greedy SOB's who caused the problem, might re-emerge to the US market. I know, extreme long shot, so maybe I would want odds. 3-1 doesn't sound outrageous, does it?:cool:

They're not a bank and don't want to be in the business of being one.
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
They're not a bank and don't want to be in the business of being one.

Perhaps, but it is older style banking principles that made for Stars being able to handle things well, while FT, and presumably Cereus have not/can not.

The older style banking principles I refer to are the ones that tell banks they must keep a very healthy percentage of their funds liquid, being able to contend with a 'run on the bank' situation. Enacted after the Depression, those principles helped America specifically, but the rest of the world (post WWII) rebuild a decimated economy. As those principles (and resulting regulations) were relaxed to near pre Depression levels, the banks got greedy and caused the collapse we are still suffering from, mostly globally.

If capital is no problem, then you're right and FT won't want to be a bank. However, since there is a lot of spec about whether or not outside investors can make a difference, they (those outside investors) might want to spread the risk. Think along the lines of a first time deposit bonus, and the idea is not so far fetched.
_________________________

And in a sense, poker sites are a bank, an investment bank. We, the players are investing, either in an entertainment concern, or in a bankroll increasing capacity. We become our own brokers in this investment bank, the company (site) makes its cut from the fees (rake). We are responsible for making sane investments (bets), or calculated risks in order to either entertain ourselves, or make a killing in the market. So IMHO, the sites need to, nay, have to be aware of the banking aspects of online poker.

Again, IMHO, online differs from B&M casinos because the vaster majority of B&M customers are looking to the entertainment side of the game. Those same people, play the lotto's when they get big, but seldom before they get big.
 
Last edited:
LarkMarlow

LarkMarlow

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Total posts
14,664
Awards
1
Chips
1
Most interesting, dj. I wonder whether there is a way you could introduce this concept to the key people involved.

On another note, has Chris Ferguson been heard from at all publicly? I'm really curious as to where he stands on this whole mess.
 
Black Chip Poker - Black Chip Bonus Code - Live Dealer Blackjack
Top