'Black Friday' and associated fallout megathread

NineLions

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Maybe some of this 470 Grand is mine and why FTP can't pay us our money. Total BS that the feds can give out OUR money before everything is settled. Isn't that stealing?

The memo on the check: "Operation Texas Holdem". So brazen to opening admit it's a war against poker not gambling or money laundering. fckrs.


"Federal investigators shared the money after county detectives helped in an investigation that seized more than $33 million from gambling organizations using banks in Guam and Charlotte, NC."

3af8a52c32fec360b3b349772b9dc36f


http://odenton.patch.com/articles/county-police-net-470000-in-online-gambling-seizure#photo-6373325


Brilliant. Photo op, Homeland Security/DOJ tries to buy support from the public.

Then poker players mess up their plans by posting comments and pointing out that it's their money/future earnings that are being donated. :eek:
 
The PoolBoy

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This makes me more Sick than Mad

Brilliant. Photo op, Homeland Security/DOJ tries to buy support from the public.

Then poker players mess up their plans by posting comments and pointing out that it's their money/future earnings that are being donated. :eek:


It not even a joke huh...so disgusting
 
the Styb

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Maybe some of this 470 Grand is mine and why FTP can't pay us our money. Total BS that the feds can give out OUR money before everything is settled. Isn't that stealing?

The memo on the check: "Operation Texas Holdem". So brazen to opening admit it's a war against poker not gambling or money laundering. fckrs.


"Federal investigators shared the money after county detectives helped in an investigation that seized more than $33 million from gambling organizations using banks in Guam and Charlotte, NC."

3af8a52c32fec360b3b349772b9dc36f


http://odenton.patch.com/articles/county-police-net-470000-in-online-gambling-seizure#photo-6373325

Umm… so these ---holes CREATED A PHONY PAYMENT PROCESSOR to bust gambling sites for fraud? Can you say "entrapment"?

"In the gambling case, federal investigators in Baltimore set up a phony New Jersey-based business called Linwood Payment Solutions and handled more than 300,000 transanctions worth more than $33 million. The case involves international owners in five different countries operating off-shore betting operations, mostly in Costa Rica."


Why is a sting on offshore betting titled "Operation Texas Hold'em"?

$33 million in 300,000 transactions $110/transaction. Over the two year period that's fifteen cents per transaction per day. Yeah. Celebrate that awesome victory!
 
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dj11

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Umm… so these ---holes CREATED A PHONY PAYMENT PROCESSOR to bust gambling sites for fraud? Can you say "entrapment"?

Why is a sting on offshore betting titled "Operation Texas Hold'em"?

$33 million in 300,000 transactions $110/transaction. Over the two year period that's fifteen cents per transaction per day. Yeah. Celebrate that awesome victory!


I get this feeling that in the long run, they would make more for their department had they continued collecting fees for processing payments. I think the Department of INjustice is dumber than they appear. And the local agencies are guilty by association.
 
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ruhrohdingdong

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Just a thought...

Inspired by the simple fact that the Stars check I received had PokerStars written on its face. Add in the nagging suspicion that the only thing the sites ever had to do was just that, put their own names on the checks.

Since this whole case involves the movement of money, and some questionable practices, and NOT about the legality of online poker, I think FullTilt should re-open gaming to US players who already have an account. They can prevent new deposits from US players until something comes along to clarify things, and they can pursue helping along things that will help clarify things.

For FT it would mean a large consolidation of the US players money. Many will go belly up, and be unable to continue. A choice that only affects whether they can deposit means they can still play.

For simplicities sake let me use a number of 100 players with limited bankrolls. Also for simplicities sake lets assume they each have the same bankroll. Very shortly after they resume playing, there would be only 50 bankrolled players, shortly after that 25, then 10, etc. In the end there might only be one. FT would have reduced the volume of complaints, without reducing its financial liability, so things could be much simpler.

In the meantime, FT has collected rake or fees, hopefully regained some lost reputation, and until that one remaining player wants his money (a fairly substantial sum by that point) FT has no payout issues at all.

Since the player experience is extremely important, like how many of us like the bodog experience, or the Zen experience or the Merge experience compared to the Stars or Tilt, or even Cereus experience we know we prefer the software of the sites that have abandoned us. And because of this, US players will flock to Tilt. Might be the nittiest play ever, but we would return, full force.

Also in the meantime, all the gears and fallout over the BF disaster can be sorted out.

The sites agreed to not allow US players and allow the DoJ to monitor to make sure they were doing everything they could to prevent them in return for getting their domain names back. Also who knows if that was part of a plea that is going on behind closed doors. On top of that there is still the possibility that the DoJ will win on the UIGEA charges because of state laws (long story short a lot of people think that the UIGEA may be held to mean that if online poker is illegal in some states in which FTP allowed real money play, the UIGEA applies and thus the money laundering charges will stick as well as the illegal gambling charges). The sites are in a ton of trouble and if you think any site currently allowing US players isn't breaking a ton of laws to do so, you're being more than a bit naive.

Also the Styb it's not entrapment if they were doing it before the feds got involved. If the feds convinced them to break the law in the first place they can argue entrapment but if they are already doing it and the feds just provide another payment processor for them to illegally (in their eyes) use it is likely not going to be ruled entrapment. I'm not a lawyer but this is what I've gathered from reading the posts of people who are lawyers.
 
Poker Orifice

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$33 million in 300,000 transactions $110/transaction. Over the two year period that's fifteen cents per transaction per day. Yeah. Celebrate that awesome victory!
You lost me on the math here ^
It's ~45,000/day in transactions if they're ~$110 each on avg.
Just seein' these numbers to me represents who they're really fk'n with..... if avg. transaction is only $110 that to me sounds like the large percentage of players making these transactions are recreational players - - people who enjoy the freedom to partake in a recreational activity in their homes. It's pretty sad imo.
 
Hordling

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the sad part is... it's probably less than that for the avg player. Only takes one large one to offset that avg.
 
OzExorcist

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I don't get it either - obviously I understand how the accounts and funds can be frozen before a trial but how are they able to claim the funds as their own and give them away before a trial?!?
 
WVHillbilly

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I don't get it either - obviously I understand how the accounts and funds can be frozen before a trial but how are they able to claim the funds as their own and give them away before a trial?!?
They aren't and they didn't. The big check posted earlier was from a older separate operation in the state of Maryland.
 
OzExorcist

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Ah - thanks for the clarification :)

On a different note, anyone know if Doyle's Room et al are still letting US players play? The whole second round of seizures seems to have been pretty much ignored in the wake of the Full Tilt mess.
 
arahel_jazz

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Don't know if links have been posted, but Dr. Pauley "Tao of Poker" blog from Wednesday has a couple of links embedded about Full Tilt and their business condition.

Cliff notes: FTP customers are screwed. No way that money is coming back.
 
alaskabill

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Don't know if links have been posted, but Dr. Pauley "Tao of Poker" blog from Wednesday has a couple of links embedded about Full Tilt and their business condition.

Cliff notes: FTP customers are screwed. No way that money is coming back.

I think these are the links. Very good reading. Scary if you have money on Tilt though.

http://ftrain.blogspot.com/2011/06/about-that-river-in-egypt.html

http://www.infiniteedgegaming.com/black-friday/full-tilt-poker’s-last-out/
 
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ruhrohdingdong

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People need to stop posting blogs and bullshit poker "news" sites as facts (*cough quadjacks and gambling911 *cough). There's a lot of unknowns here and rumors and speculations are filling in the blanks. The sad part is given how desperate people are getting (I have a bunch locked up on FTP as well) they just eat up all the "news".

Remember the rumor that FTP had a bank account unfrozen? I was in a poker room the other day that had some poker newspaper I forget what it was but it mentioned that as a fact. That's since been disproven as pure rumor. Please do your part in researching every claim before blindly reposting it everywhere on internet message boards. Most of these sites simply repost every rumor they hear as "news" and then if it turns out to be true they can say "you heard it here first!". All these random no-name blogs and poker "news" sites are not reliable sources of information and if they don't cite their sources be extremely wary.

The bottom line is not many people know what's going on behind closed doors at FTP. We can look at the facts, which are that FTP is still serving non-US players, non-US players are still able to cash out although it is taking longer than normal, FTP is not paying US players, FTP has admitted they are trying to raise capital and thus don't have the liquid funds on hand to pay players. I may be missing a few other facts about the FTP situation but the bottom line is there's a lot of stuff people don't know and a lot of rumor mills out there on the internet trying to fill in what we don't know. Please check your sources before posting stuff on an internet forum, it serves to do nothing other than to create panic.
 
dmorris68

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^^^ the fact is, thanks to Tiltware's handling of this, there are very few facts to be known at this point. All we have to go on are the tidbits that are reasonably known to be true, and then we have to read between the lines. Some of it will be B.S., but some of the speculation is going to be dead on because there aren't many different conclusions a reasonably intelligent person can draw. You can't stop people from speculating -- it's human nature. Personally I'd rather read all possible opinions and then apply my own common sense filter than to read absolutely nothing.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Umm… so these ---holes CREATED A PHONY PAYMENT PROCESSOR to bust gambling sites for fraud? Can you say "entrapment"?

not gonna deny it's an incredibly douchey move but you need to do some more research on what entrapment actually entails. the relevant sites would have and indeed were breaking the law regardless of the intervention of the phony processor, hence it's not entrapment.

^^^ the fact is, thanks to Tiltware's handling of this, there are very few facts to be known at this point. All we have to go on are the tidbits that are reasonably known to be true, and then we have to read between the lines. Some of it will be B.S., but some of the speculation is going to be dead on because there aren't many different conclusions a reasonably intelligent person can draw. You can't stop people from speculating -- it's human nature. Personally I'd rather read all possible opinions and then apply my own common sense filter than to read absolutely nothing.

agreeing with this.
 
WVHillbilly

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People need to stop posting blogs and bullshit poker "news" sites as facts (*cough quadjacks and gambling911 *cough). There's a lot of unknowns here and rumors and speculations are filling in the blanks. The sad part is given how desperate people are getting (I have a bunch locked up on FTP as well) they just eat up all the "news".

Remember the rumor that FTP had a bank account unfrozen? I was in a poker room the other day that had some poker newspaper I forget what it was but it mentioned that as a fact. That's since been disproven as pure rumor. Please do your part in researching every claim before blindly reposting it everywhere on internet message boards. Most of these sites simply repost every rumor they hear as "news" and then if it turns out to be true they can say "you heard it here first!". All these random no-name blogs and poker "news" sites are not reliable sources of information and if they don't cite their sources be extremely wary.

The bottom line is not many people know what's going on behind closed doors at FTP. We can look at the facts, which are that FTP is still serving non-US players, non-US players are still able to cash out although it is taking longer than normal, FTP is not paying US players, FTP has admitted they are trying to raise capital and thus don't have the liquid funds on hand to pay players. I may be missing a few other facts about the FTP situation but the bottom line is there's a lot of stuff people don't know and a lot of rumor mills out there on the internet trying to fill in what we don't know. Please check your sources before posting stuff on an internet forum, it serves to do nothing other than to create panic.

Agreed for the most part but in the absence of official news wild speculation and half-truths are all that we've got.
 
Charade You Are

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It looks very positive. Reid and Barton are working together in the Senate. Even Bachus in the House seems a little more open on the topic.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/jun/10/key-conservative-joins-harry-reid-effort-legalize-/

Best news we've had in a long time. Props to Frank though.

Frank said: “I’ll go for the broadest bill possible. We have an extraordinary restriction on people’s freedom right now, so I would support the broadest bill possible ... but I would take something over nothing.”
 
the Styb

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Dorkus, it IS illegal if they opened the phony processor, then invited those sites to use their services. Think of it this way… if you're engaged in money laundering, are you going to switch to a brand new processor that no one has ever heard of? Not unless they start making promises and offering kickbacks.
 
Charade You Are

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They aren't and they didn't. The big check posted earlier was from a older separate operation in the state of Maryland.
Older than what? Looks to me like they seized the funds and gave them away even before the indictment was issued.
The windfall came on April 26, 2011, after a federal grand jury in Baltimore indicted two gambling businesses and three defendants with conducting an illegal gambling business and money laundering. On May 23, seizure warrants were issued for 11 bank accounts in Charlotte, NC.; Guam; Panama; Malta; portugal; and the netherlands; as well as domain names associated with 10 Internet gambling sites.

This is a press release issued on the indictments:
A federal grand jury has returned indictments charging two gambling businesses and three defendants with conducting an illegal gambling business and money laundering. The two indictments were returned on April 26, 2011 and unsealed today. As part of the investigation, 11 bank accounts located in Charlotte, N.C.; Guam; Panama; Malta; Portugal; and the Netherlands; and domain names associated with 10 Internet gambling sites were also seized today. The indictments are the result of an extensive investigation conducted by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI).​

The following Internet domain names were seized pursuant to court order:
  • Bookmaker.com
  • 2Betsdi.com
  • Funtimebingo.com
  • Goldenarchcasino.com
  • Truepoker.com
  • Betmaker.com
  • Betgrandesports.com
  • Doylesroom.com
  • Beted.com
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Dorkus, it IS illegal if they opened the phony processor, then invited those sites to use their services. Think of it this way… if you're engaged in money laundering, are you going to switch to a brand new processor that no one has ever heard of? Not unless they start making promises and offering kickbacks.

the shortage of processors willing to deal with poker-related transfers because of uigea was and is part of the problem. the fact is that even before the doj set up their fake processor poker transfers were happening with other processors (otherwise we'd have been getting "i can't cash out of ______" stories), but at the same time any sort of interest would have been welcomed. it's not about switching to a brand new processor - any poker site worth a damn uses multiple payment processors.

In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.

the bold is clearly untrue in this case, hence it isn't entrapment.
 
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ruhrohdingdong

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Agreed for the most part but in the absence of official news wild speculation and half-truths are all that we've got.

We have no information yet people are talking about random speculation as if it is fact. These sources literally have been caught making things up, yet people continue to post links from these sources because "they're all we've got". I understand and it's human nature to want to know the truth, but we need to accept that there's a lot we don't know right now rather than fill in the blanks with random rumors heard from unreliable sources. That's all I'm trying to say.
 
Daniel72

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I think this is only the beginning ...i am sure that the dojnks will steal even more money from the players in the next weeks and months. You should only have the bare minimum of poker money online, you never know what happens next...
 
ALL IN CLUBS

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I think this is only the beginning ...i am sure that the dojnks will steal even more money from the players in the next weeks and months. You should only have the bare minimum of poker money online, you never know what happens next...

In the next 6 months they will legalize online poker and we will all be winners (M.P.F.T.F):rolleyes: :cheers: :vroam:
 
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