tbdbitl
Legend
Silver Level
Oh that's why Howard's house went on the market recently. So, that's where all the players money went--into buying huge homes and luxury items for the FTP Pros--err owners.
How is this different from Russ Hamilton's scandle at UB? Oh I know, FTP ran with ALL of the players money. Not just the high rollers!
Come on FTP I thought you were better than UB--show us the money!
SavagePenguin
Put the win in penguin
Bronze Level
I don't like the sound of that.
pokerstars paid out so quickly because they were required to keep all of the player funds in a separate account. That money may have been getting them interest, but it was untouchable.
It appears that Full Tilt didn't have that policy, so they do not have enough savings to pay back the American players.
I think they'll get it, eventually. But it's going to take some time.
The Dark Side
Visionary
Silver Level
No your right. Its EXACTLY the same.
Did anyone else recieve multiple rakeback payments this past Sunday?
I got 2 about 1/2 hr. apart. Both for $2.00. This is seperate than the ones I recieved last Friday which was $67. Not sure what happened.
P
PlayedYou73
Visionary
Silver Level
Full Tilt did have the same policy (player's money was supposed to be 'fenced'), but it is rather obvious that they were not enforcing it. There appears to be some serious financial mismanagement activities going on.I don't like the sound of that.
PokerStars paid out so quickly because they were required to keep all of the player funds in a separate account. That money may have been getting them interest, but it was untouchable.
It appears that Full Tilt didn't have that policy, so they do not have enough savings to pay back the American players.
I think they'll get it, eventually. But it's going to take some time.
The fact that they said in their 'non' update yesterday that they were trying to raise money to cover their U.S players, implies that they do not have it. Or, that their financial mismanagement is so bad that they can't tell the DOJ the difference between company and players money. In which case there is little chance the DOJ will unlock the accounts for fear that FTP management will literally take the money and run...to a non-extradition country.
If FTP was a publicly traded company, its stock would be near penny status now. Their lack of communication, irregardless of their legal troubles, would totally destroy consumer confidence in the brand.
And if their financial mismanagement is this bad for USA players, it is likely as bad for other countries as well. So if other countries were to go after FTP for bank/wire fraud issues...which wouldn't be surprising..I have serious doubts as to whether any players money is safe in that situation.
Short answer...don't make any deposits on FTP with money that would hurt you personally (which is a good rule in general anyway).
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
First of all it's pretty unlikely that Full Tilt (or any other site for that matter) will run into a problem of this magnitude with the players from any other country since their activities are 100% legal in pretty much every other country they operate in and the ones where they're not legal (Australia, for example) are small enough not to matter. In short, we can be pretty sure this is a one-time issue.
Second, here's an explanation of how money actually moved back and forth between players and sites and how big chunks of player funds probably ended up being seized even though they were "segregated": http://www.billrini.com/2011/05/12/player-account-segregation-explained-simple-version/
FWIW it sounds like Stars would have had very similar issues but as discussed previously, the difference was that Stars had more spare cash lying around so they could afford to pay US players out of their own pocket. They may or may not also have had the same issues that Full Tilt are faced with when it comes to maintaining asset to liability ratios since they're set up in different jurisdictions (ie: Full Tilt can be a long way from broke but still be unable to pay US players out because doing so out of their own pocket would drop their asset:liability ratio below the required level of the Alderney Gaming Commission - which is almost certainly why they're having to raise capital to pay).
Second, here's an explanation of how money actually moved back and forth between players and sites and how big chunks of player funds probably ended up being seized even though they were "segregated": http://www.billrini.com/2011/05/12/player-account-segregation-explained-simple-version/
FWIW it sounds like Stars would have had very similar issues but as discussed previously, the difference was that Stars had more spare cash lying around so they could afford to pay US players out of their own pocket. They may or may not also have had the same issues that Full Tilt are faced with when it comes to maintaining asset to liability ratios since they're set up in different jurisdictions (ie: Full Tilt can be a long way from broke but still be unable to pay US players out because doing so out of their own pocket would drop their asset:liability ratio below the required level of the Alderney Gaming Commission - which is almost certainly why they're having to raise capital to pay).
coolnout
Legend
Silver Level
Ivey releases a statement about FTP, and filing a lawsuit against Tiltware?
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/statement-phil-ivey-about-ftp-epic-198029/
worries me now that we won't get paid. UGH.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/statement-phil-ivey-about-ftp-epic-198029/
worries me now that we won't get paid. UGH.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
^ this. Netteller payouts took what, over six months in some cases when they were frozen? It's only been six weeks in this case, I don't think there's cause to panic yet.
The fact is Full Tilt is a fundamentally solid company with a licence to print money legally in pretty much every country in the world other than the US. There's every reason to believe that, like party poker before them, they'll continue to operate profitably once this issue is sorted out. Can anyone provide any evidence to the contrary?
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
if the bad press goes on and the player based keeps on getting eroded by over 5% per week ...
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Memory is failing, but I seem to remember my Netteller payout took over 3 months. Can easily see where those who gave up and didn't even bother to check could move the average payout time to over 5 months....
arahel_jazz
Unbalanced and Committed
Silver Level
You are presuming that FTP had a sound business model with good positive cash flow. Maybe before the accounts were seized, but certainly not after.
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
They cut costs dramatically after BF. Revoked loads of red pro contracts. No reason for them not to be profitable if they solve their PR problems.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
We don't know because no one is telling us. From the activity around here, before Black Friday, I always had the impression that TILT was far more active as far as deposits and withdrawals, along with xfers. Stars had the impression for me, of being more stable in that existing players didn't withdraw as often. Just impressions from what I observed here at CC in the threads.
If , IF, my impressions had some validity, then the amounts of $$$ in transit (both ways) may have been much more significant for Tilt than for Stars. The freezing of the banks and accounts may have been more significant than we can realize, and more devastating to the money flow for Tilt than it was for Stars.
Tilt is paying out to European players according to some brief answers I have received, but it is entirely possible that the American money is sitting frozen in 'locked' accounts.
We, the players involved, should demand to know things, TIlt is being way too tight lipped, but the DoJ, the instigator in all this, should be telling us what they know also.
The one thing that still bugs me is that my check from Stars carried the Stars logo, and was clearly from Stars. Either the DoJ was complicit in allowing a breach of the UEGIA post BF, or all the sites ever had to do was to state clearly whose checks the funds were drawn on. If it was the latter, seems to me that will be brought up in court to show how confused, confusing, and ****ed up the UEGIA law was.
At this point, Tilt's biggest sin (IMHO) is in not telling us what is going on.
I also think the DoJ should be telling us what is going on. And from them I don't need any bs about a 'Need to Know'. Damnit, I need to know!
ALL IN CLUBS
Legend
Silver Level
Belgo you live in another Country you still playing on Full Tilt or you put your money on Pokerstars where you know they paid back ??
cardriverx
Legend
Silver Level
I don't like the sound of that.
PokerStars paid out so quickly because they were required to keep all of the player funds in a separate account. That money may have been getting them interest, but it was untouchable.
It appears that Full Tilt didn't have that policy, so they do not have enough savings to pay back the American players.
I think they'll get it, eventually. But it's going to take some time.
I don't think this is necessarily correct. I think a lot of pokerstars + Full Tilt money was seized and is still seized. The difference is that pokerstars had a lot of extra $$$ to be able to pay off the US players, while fulltilt does not.
If FullTilt is able to get the money back that was seized from the crummy fake buisnesses, they'd be able to pay us back now (I think), but since that money is seized, as of right now they don't have a lot of extra $$$ like pokerstars did so they're basically stalling until they make enough money to be able to us our money back and still be able to run smooth.
That's my take.
coolnout
Legend
Silver Level
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/06/01/general-us-online-poker-ivey_8494948.html
Chesnoff claimed in the suit that Ivey believes Full Tilt owes its players about $150 million but failed to maintain a large enough reserve account to return the funds.
Chesnoff claimed in the suit that Ivey believes Full Tilt owes its players about $150 million but failed to maintain a large enough reserve account to return the funds.
Poker Orifice
And Still...
Platinum Level
Stars appears to have a much larger international player pool... whereas on FTP a large percentage of the players were from US.I don't like the sound of that.
PokerStars paid out so quickly because they were required to keep all of the player funds in a separate account. That money may have been getting them interest, but it was untouchable.
It appears that Full Tilt didn't have that policy, so they do not have enough savings to pay back the American players.
I think they'll get it, eventually. But it's going to take some time.
Poker Orifice
And Still...
Platinum Level
How is this different from Russ Hamilton & UB scandal? you're kiding... right?
xdeucesx
Bar Master
Silver Level
the Styb
Rock Star
Silver Level
"Irregardless" is not a word. No matter how many times Katie Couric uses it.