puzzlefish
Legend
Loyaler
There actually is, and I believe it has already been solved. It is called backtesting. You look for repeating artifacts in the output of the RNG (ex. If X happens in this round with this hand, then Y happens on the next hand) and then plug this exact same scenario back into the RNG when you encounter it next to see if the same result happens. Once repeating events are identified, it opens the RNG to further backtesting using similar scenarios. I believe this is a major reason why many players are seeing what they are seeing in online poker. The only question is whether there is house player involvement or if the backtesting has been done externally.
P
Promontory Rydr
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Psychic Studies On RNGs
I agree with the faster play/more hand explanation making it seem like more bad beats rather than fixed gaming. How about another possible rabbit hole though?- someone is psychically controlling the cards. Psychic research purportedly has shown everyone can very slightly shift rngs with thought/will and a very small percentage of people can move them more significantly.(2 number random generator with subject chosing 1 or 2) Your opponent is gifted or maybe you are doing it to yourself
Belief is a funny thing...
I agree with the faster play/more hand explanation making it seem like more bad beats rather than fixed gaming. How about another possible rabbit hole though?- someone is psychically controlling the cards. Psychic research purportedly has shown everyone can very slightly shift rngs with thought/will and a very small percentage of people can move them more significantly.(2 number random generator with subject chosing 1 or 2) Your opponent is gifted or maybe you are doing it to yourself
Belief is a funny thing...
P
Promontory Rydr
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Psychic Studies On RNGs
I agree with the faster play/more hand explanation rather than fixed gaming. How about another possible rabbit hole though?- someone is psychically controlling the cards. Purportedly all subjects trying to mentally shift a 2 number rng can do it a a very slight amount both directions away from 50/50. A very small amount of individuals :fight:can shift it significantly. Is it then possible your opponent is causing this or maybe you are doing it yourself
I agree with the faster play/more hand explanation rather than fixed gaming. How about another possible rabbit hole though?- someone is psychically controlling the cards. Purportedly all subjects trying to mentally shift a 2 number rng can do it a a very slight amount both directions away from 50/50. A very small amount of individuals :fight:can shift it significantly. Is it then possible your opponent is causing this or maybe you are doing it yourself
el_soma77
Visionary
Silver Level
The truth is, that is a very good question, I have no idea how poker systems are handled worldwide, I think you have to ask a systems technician or 888 or americascardroom or pokerstars...
LadderingUp
Rock Star
Silver Level
As random as a program can be. The argument is what incentive is there? I think there is one in MTTs to move the action along and keep the thing moving towards the end. In ring games its obviously more rake, however, the fundamentals of finding big calls and folds still make the difference.
DizzyDeb717
Visionary
Bronze Level
You'll have KK, get 2 callers (AA and 33) and that 3 will hit so often, you get used to it. It's also amazing how many times you see AA and KK in a hand together. That's just one example. It does seem to be set up for the "excitement" factor, and I have to admit it makes it interesting. It also seems certain seats hit everything. You'll get crazy beats everywhere all day, then hit a tournament where you're winning every hand.
I've played over 6,000 tournies at one site alone, and you can't deny the ongoing patterns. After one too many bad beats early on, I decided to never make deposits, and play online for entertainment only. I play micro/low and freerolls and just use the money I earn from those. It works for me. I withdraw when I hit a certain amount, leaving myself a couple bucks, and enjoy the building process again
This is my experience anyway.. Personally, I wouldn't invest a lot of funds in online gaming because of the crazy constant miracles.
Have fun, good luck, and welcome to CardsChat!
It also seems certain seats hit everything. You'll get crazy beats everywhere all day, then hit a tournament where you're winning every hand. I've played over 6,000 tournies at one site alone, and you can't deny the ongoing patterns. After one too many bad beats early on, I decided to never make deposits, and play online for entertainment only. I play micro/low and freerolls and just use the money I earn from those. It works for me. I withdraw when I hit a certain amount, leaving myself a couple bucks, and enjoy the building process again
This is my experience anyway.. Personally, I wouldn't invest a lot of funds in online gaming because of the crazy constant miracles.
Have fun, good luck, and welcome to CardsChat!
R
Royal9012
Rock Star
Silver Level
Play and learning from mistakes.
)
ornell7
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I also think that, happy weekend everyone !
I also think that, happy weekend everyone !
I also think that, happy weekend everyone !
J
Jrobbz10
Enthusiast
Silver Level
randomness of online poker card shuffle generators
So my thoughts on this matter are that I play on multiple platforms and the randomness of the cards is very different depending on the platform. I may be completely wrong here. But I run a club on one of the platforms and the suck outs and bad beats are ridiculous compared to many of the other platforms I play on. I don't know if this is true or not but based on my personal experience, I believe that some sites are set up to generate more action than others which of course leads to more bad beats.
So my thoughts on this matter are that I play on multiple platforms and the randomness of the cards is very different depending on the platform. I may be completely wrong here. But I run a club on one of the platforms and the suck outs and bad beats are ridiculous compared to many of the other platforms I play on. I don't know if this is true or not but based on my personal experience, I believe that some sites are set up to generate more action than others which of course leads to more bad beats.
Rockyfour
Visionary
Silver Level
poker sites are almost certainly not rigged.
Not everyone is a winner, and sometimes people look for excuses to why they are losing, so they say the site is rigged.
That's the simple truth of it.
Not everyone is a winner, and sometimes people look for excuses to why they are losing, so they say the site is rigged.
That's the simple truth of it.
D
denissaangerami
Rising Star
Silver Level
The truth is, I have no idea about this type of information, the truth is that I imagine that this is handled by the same system, or the same program, I don't think that almost anyone or any specific player has access to those generators.
Alizona
Visionary
Bronze Level
Keep in mind, there are only 52 cards in the deck. This means that EVERY card deal has a 2% chance of being predicted... for instance, the dealer gives you a card and before you turn it over, you have to guess what it is. You guess Ace of Spades, and since there are 52 cards in a full deck, the odds you are right are 1 out of 52, or (roughly) 2% chance of being correct.
The point is... when each single card ALWAYS has a 2% chance of appearing on the next street... that's not an "infinitely small" chance, its a small but very possible chance... thus it should never be a "mind-blowing" event when that one-outer hits. You just accept your random bad luck fate as graciously as you can and move on without further upset or bother.
The next time you take a "brutal beat" I hope my explanation helps. It's not the end of the world, it's just one hand of cards out of the millions you will likely play in your lifetime. Quit yer bellyachin' and get back on that horse that bucked you off, son!!!!!! hahaha Good luck at the tables, we can all use some from time to time...
If poker were "rigged", there wouldn't be players who consistently beat the game no matter what site they play on... case closed, pretty much.
The point is... when each single card ALWAYS has a 2% chance of appearing on the next street... that's not an "infinitely small" chance, its a small but very possible chance... thus it should never be a "mind-blowing" event when that one-outer hits. You just accept your random bad luck fate as graciously as you can and move on without further upset or bother.
The next time you take a "brutal beat" I hope my explanation helps. It's not the end of the world, it's just one hand of cards out of the millions you will likely play in your lifetime. Quit yer bellyachin' and get back on that horse that bucked you off, son!!!!!! hahaha Good luck at the tables, we can all use some from time to time...
If poker were "rigged", there wouldn't be players who consistently beat the game no matter what site they play on... case closed, pretty much.
filippfilm
Rock Star
Bronze Level
What PM? I haven't received anything.
You're admiring my posts? Oh it can't be, cause i'm such a ....... well, you know, cause since you know what I know, then you must also know that I know what I wanted to type there .
I believe that example with the salt was nice one, It was an answer to some sort of "we shouldn't use programs at all" message. It's like "Use it but don't over use it, or you'll do damage to yourself". 1kilogramm of salt during a day is a deadly doze for almost any human. No salt at all will lead to diseases and death. So there must be a balance - right? What is the correct balance? In case of poker - both online poker rooms and live casinos want to ruin balance of each individual player to obtain manipulative control. It's not like there is a team sitting and observing you to find out your weaknesses(well, maybe in live casinos such teams exist), but in case of online poker rooms - it's just their game of trends and psychological tricks written in code and represented to you in forms of interface, bonuses, promotions and such trash. It's a virtual manipulation, the deeper you fall in it the more promising it looks, you can almost touch the cards, you can almost feel the perfume and sweat of your opponents.But everything is just a gigantic con.
Why it's a con? Any good and prospering relationship in human society is based on "win-win" scheme. Person must realize that his only and single chance to win is if he accepts the fact that he's paying money and time and some energy for the feelings he will be getting. At this point it doesn't matter if individual is a winning or losing player. That's a single subjective point of view where individual can feel that "win-win" works for him. From all other objective points of view 100% of poker players are losers, they lose time, they lose money, they work for a program, they're not doing anything useful for the society in general and for themselves too, statistically online poker leads to real life debts, divorces, problems with law, alcohol, drugs and so on. SO Casino wins, players lose. If you accept the fact that you're a loser - go ahead and catch your quads on the river, that's what subjectively your mind is looking for to give you a fake feelings like "I'm a winner"... Ok Ok, You're a Winner of the pot? no problem, WINNER of the tourney? no problem, WINNER OF THE YEAR? Great, but still You're a loser. If someone is not getting it still then let's have a look at two drug users, both of them are using heroine, one is richer, the other one is homeless, one can have his doze of perfect clean heroine several times per day, the other one is getting some trash portions mixed with replacements. Both of them are feeling like they're winners, but what do you feel when you're looking at them from apart? Do they look like winners? That's what majority of the society objectively thinks about card players. The first step to solve the problem is to understand the problem and describe it as deep as possible, to find the roots and see where this problem is coming from. Whole poker media world is screaming loud "It's not a problem" So LOL, why would some poker fan will ever read my posts, while there is a post written by Daniel or whatever Phil, where they say how shocking iot was to see Nine at the river... Some say that it's entertainment, but once again - where is the balance with this salt? It's a nice entertainment when you're watching a movie once every two months, it's a nice entertainment when you're playing some live poker with friends once a month or three. It's nice to reward yourself with a cigar and glass of some nice strong stuff once during couple of months, but if you're addicted - you must realize that you're not rewarding yourself anymore, you're sick and it's a road of self destruction of your character. It's hard for a human to be his own psychologist... too hard, I guess that i'm analyzing myself through posts of some other people at this forum and lol for past 3+ years it worked for me like if cardschat is some sort of "Alcoholics anonymous" but in the field of gambling.
Can you explain what exactly do you mean by saying "alternate suggestions" ? Can you find these suggestions in what I've typed above, or you had something else in mind?
I completely agree with you. I will also add that Pokerrooms are a business. And for a business, such as a casino, all means are good . They will not disdain anything. And it makes no sense to talk about an interesting game in this context. The RNG will never work towards the player
_____________________________
Ah it is not difficult to deceive me I am glad to be deceived myself. Pushkin
B
beatlebug
Visionary
Bronze Level
I do believe that the number generator works to its ability although it doesn't always seem to be random. To me it seems that flushes always come out even when you feel you have the best hand. Be wary of the way the generator works.
Beatlebug
Beatlebug
Z
Zild
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Technically it is impossible for computers to generate numbers purely at random (I'd even argue that people cannot "think of a random number", and that every dice will have a slight bias through their imperfections - the result, ironically, of the randomness of their own manufacture!) So I can say with 100% certainty that the cards are not random! However, I think they are pseudo-random - random enough not to be able to predict, and not created according to some secret agenda.
I think the unlikely events players attribute to suspicious card generation are in fact simply the result of online play:
1: You see many, many more hands than in the real world so you will see more instances of improbable outcomes.
2: Players are more wild online, so you are more likely to see people chase those highly unlikely outcomes in the first place.
I've only played in a casino once, thanks to Covid closing all the casinos here for the past 14 months, but even then I saw one particularly bad beat - my friend had pocket rockets on his last hand of the night, so he decided to shove all-in pre-flop. The table nit called with his KK and won. I guess that's one result we all see quite often, though!
I think the unlikely events players attribute to suspicious card generation are in fact simply the result of online play:
1: You see many, many more hands than in the real world so you will see more instances of improbable outcomes.
2: Players are more wild online, so you are more likely to see people chase those highly unlikely outcomes in the first place.
I've only played in a casino once, thanks to Covid closing all the casinos here for the past 14 months, but even then I saw one particularly bad beat - my friend had pocket rockets on his last hand of the night, so he decided to shove all-in pre-flop. The table nit called with his KK and won. I guess that's one result we all see quite often, though!
B
BodyCount
Rock Star
Silver Level
And I am left with this impression.
puzzlefish
Legend
Loyaler
Which players are those?
Poker Orifice
And Still...
Platinum Level
Excellent response! It's amazing how many players (on this forum) choose to think otherwise. Personally I like the ones who suggest there's obvious patterns... and yet they're not crushing the games????
Poker Orifice
And Still...
Platinum Level
Do you watch online poker tournaments? Do you follow/rail any of the players? Do you follow (or have you followed) the HSMTT action online? There are & have been hundreds who are regularly winning. The ones crushing it 10yrs. ago often aren't competitive today but they were 10yrs. ago. Today it obviously takes more work but there are many out there who are doing it. (hint: they're not the ones looking for 'patterns' in the deal)
J
jeffman123
Rock Star
Bronze Level
You're experiencing something called "cognitive bias". Your brain is simply not equipped to accurately calculate statistics over large percentages of data. Your brain remembers unlikely or frustrating events more vividly than expected outcomes. If you really want to make claims about cardrooms being rigged, the only way to do it is by recording a large data pool (at least 10000 hands) and then analyze it. And if you did that, surprise surprise, you won't find anything wildly different to what you would expect. In fact, online poker rooms are a lot more random than live games, since live shuffles aren't 100% perfect! (like online cardrooms basically are.)
SightUnseen
Rock Star
Silver Level
In theory nothing can be truly random when dealing with computers since it's programmed by man. Man designs and scripts every software and game produced for computers to their personally liking. It can be artificially random but not truly random, that is something that happens in real life. All you can do when playing poker is make the best decisions possible. With that being said that means you're suppose to do your best to play the most +EV poker possible and have great equity. The game is all about reading players and good decision making, the cards are only one part of the game, the best hand doesn't always win. After a large sample size in poker is where you see the pros prevail, stop looking at short term losses and focus on the long term. Continue making good decisions for the victory in the long run.