Building from a baby bankroll

djoepadilha

djoepadilha

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nice one bro !
really good and clear post to help with essencial steps to start the path to become profitable in online poker, thanks for it bro
 
Polytarp

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The Kelly criterion and maximizing opportunities to gain entry into more games at zero or minimal cost are important considerations. I would like to make six figures a year..possibly seven.
What's a good recipe?

Assuming I start with $100, what is the proportion of skill and luck required to complete this objective within 365 days with 100% probability of success?

What would the proportion be for a 1% chance of success?

One component is the requirement to enter some big games...which site(s) would be the best to play to chase this goal?:confused:
 
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AL THOMAS

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ignore the money

I fall into the trap when if the prize pool or buy is micro I don't really care and play too loose. my advice is to always ignore the cash until situations like the bubble or final table icm play and play you best poker whatever the stakes.
 
Peppinotom

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I fall into the trap when if the prize pool or buy is micro I don't really care and play too loose. my advice is to always ignore the cash until situations like the bubble or final table icm play and play you best poker whatever the stakes.

I totally agree, forget about the money, go for the chips. Once you have enough, have a look around and see how the others were doing. Now it's time for ICM and decide whether to protect your stack or bully some more.:flute:
 
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Hunterlewis31

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seriously, that makes so much sense. any time i play when my wife and kids are up. im doomed
 
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Fastone2

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I see that you have went into depth to discuss bankrolls. Thx.
I agree with your statements... I had much to learn an decided to remain play low buy ins an focus on improving my game. And its working...
 
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phatty408

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BRM for different sized games of the same type?

Should I be able to cover a minimum of X amount of Buy-ins depending on what game I play?

For example (JUST FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES):

1-2 NLH (min 30Buys)
2-5 NLH (min 40Buys)?
 
Peppinotom

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IT WILL NEVER WORK

As soon as I see the light, the lights go out.
I won a 5$ ticket, put it on a Twister, as there are no nice tournaments for 5$, won 10$ and thought I will put it on a slot, and if I can make it 20, I will have 10 buy ins for cash games and give it a run.
Guess WHAT??? I got 15 freespins, the prog crashed. Usually you are taken back to the place you were before, but not in my case, huh? I heard the sound of the freespins in the BG, but nothing popped up.
They don't want me to win, they want me to deposit MORE AND MORE AND MORE.
Some sites just suck, now I'm down to PS and maybe 888, because when it comes to online poker and money involved, I cannot stand not even one single mistake from their side. Am I wrong here?:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
Sure I throw away the rest of my money:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
rohankamble9

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That was a nice post OZ. Every rookie should read this post and abide by it.
 
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Inuksah

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Thank you for your advices, as a beginner player that really wants to progress i think it'll help me :)
 
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TEIS22

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I'm new to actual cash games and this is a great post to read and go buy. I usually play a lot of mixed gaming but I see it makes since just to play one type of game and get that down before multitasking
 
dj11

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Should I be able to cover a minimum of X amount of Buy-ins depending on what game I play?

For example (JUST FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES):

1-2 NLH (min 30Buys)
2-5 NLH (min 40Buys)?

Most of the more accomplished members here will say 100 BI's for either. I have always thought that was too tight, but then rings games have been my downfall on more than a few occasions.
 
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reppair

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I am going to bookmark this one for future reference. Thanks for the thread!
 
bc2017

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The original post is really useful advice. At the moment, I'm just sticking to freerolls, just building up experience, learning what cards to play in each position etc. Once I hit a win, I'll be planning careful on what game I would actually try using that cash to enter. And should I lose it, I'll just start all over again. As long as I'm having fun in the process I don't mind.
 
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danielcai

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Great post, thank you so much for the information.

Building the bankroll from a tiny money definitely helps to improve your game.
You can learn from the micro-stake and grind yourself to probably high stakes.
 
HK_47

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This was a very informative post, I definitely think that playing from just purely free rolls and working up to larger bankrolls (1k+) is definitely possible. I did it the first time I played poker. Granted that was me learning the game and it took me about 2 years playing on average 2+ hours a day, but honestly I don't think there's a better way to learn all aspects of poker ESPECIALLY Bankroll management.

This past month I've worked up to a $74 Bankroll on intertops after winning a Weekend warrior for 11.25 before they changed their payout structures. And on ACR I managed to make just under $20 mainly from (Mainly from winning a $75GTD), but honestly ACR has so much more potential in terms of sustained play as apposed to Intertops which really only has maybe 3-4 good tournaments a day.

However this past month has been an absolutely incredible learning experience just focusing on MTTs and I'd recommend it to anyone who's looking to work on their MTT game to do something like this just to have that make or break mentality as there is much more focus IMO when every little cent matters.
 
Viper ChipIt

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Great post, im trying to build a br from scratch my self. Alot of good advice that ill definitely take on board :D
 
Ragequit

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Yeah really good. It's also worth adding that you can build in your own buffer zones into your bankroll. So for a $40 Bankroll for NL2, you continue to grind until you have $80, then you can start taking shots at NL5 ($100), with the 8 extra $5 Buyins you now have. If you lose it all and drop back to $40 then that's ok. Just rebuild and try again.
 
Duraphig

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Thank you for taking the time to write this out. I am just starting out and slowly building a bankroll off of freerolls. A lot of the points you covered were questions I had going through my mind recently.
 
Ragequit

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Good post, well written. Verneer is another great read for climbing up stakes.


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rafffinamore

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Good Morning.
I really enjoyed the tips, I'll start explaining myself with this today. How would you tell me what your nickname is on pokerstars? I currently have something around $ 100 on 888 and $ 3.45 on PS.
 
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no idea if this helps anyone ive never used/been strict enough to stick with bankroll management but am about to now going into the future, but this is my bankroll management plan for no limit texas holdem going into the future lol got a minimum bankroll requirement for each stake and a working bankroll for each stake if you drop to near or below the minimum for the stake you drop down a level and play there instead and move up when got the working bankroll for a stake so basically you got 5buyin shot each time you move up to make it work at the next stake, the difference in bankroll requirements for each stake is based on the fact that if you are an actual winning player longterm your have more of an edge so less variance and potentially big winrates in the lower stake games but as you move up in levels opposition gets tougher trickier and edges become smaller so variance increases as does your risk of ruin so bankroll requirements for each stake progressively gets larger to negate risk of ruin and also so you can actually play there long enough even as a loser/dog to get enough experience learn to become a winner
minimum bankroll requirement for each stake
2nl =5buyins $10
5nl =9buyins $45
10nl =13buyins $130
25nl =15buyins $375
50nl =17buyins $850
100nl =19buyins $1900
200nl =22buyins $4400
500nl =25buyins $19'000
working bankroll requirements
2nl =10buyins $20
5nl =14buyins $70
10nl =18buyins $180
25nl =20buyins $500
50nl =22buyins $1100
100nl =24buyins $2400
200nl =27buyins $5400
500nl =30buyins $15'000

so my advice is to just start at the level you can afford follow the rules and go from there and if you can only afford to start at 2nl keep playing there until you manage to make a deposit stick and learn to win grow a roll, treat it like a game cause that is what it is after all and each stake level like unlocking a level in computer game or something


Mine is nearly the same. If you play low you don't need that many buy it's 5 is enough, if you lose 5 buy in a row that low,your bank role management isn't going to help you. You need to improve your game
 
Kanetuck

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Wonderful Advice

We get a lot of discussion on here around what to do when you're trying to build a bankroll from a small amount. Maybe you've just had a freeroll cash, maybe a friend's been kind enough to transfer you a small amount or maybe you've deposited in the past and you've only got a few bucks left. How do we take that amount and turn it into a real bankroll?

What I've tried to do below is dump the bulk of my experience on the subject into one post. For those wondering about my credentials, I've been playing for the past couple of years on a roll built from freeroll cashes. I'll warn readers from the outset, I don't have any easy answers or shortcuts. But I think what's written here might be helpful in at least dispelling some of the myths and crazy ideas people have about undertaking this task and hopefully keep them on track while they're attempting it.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET

There's loads of discussion on this point - time after time people have asked "What's the BEST game to play with a bankroll of (insert tiny amount here)?"

The truth is there IS no answer to that question. Everybody's different and we all have different strengths and weaknesses as players. I might have built a roll playing nothing but small stakes limit mixed games. Does that mean it's going to work for you? Dear gawd no! That'd be suicide for most people, since most people don't have the first clue how to play mixed games.

That's an extreme example, I know. It should be obvious to most people that if they suck at mixed games then they shouldn't be putting any of their baby bankroll on a mixed game table.

But there's other advice that sounds more reasonable but can be just as dangerous. How often have we heard, for example, that limit hold 'em is a great way to build a bankroll because it doesn't carry the risk of losing your whole stack in one hand like NLHE does? I know there's more than one lesson in the Full Tilt Academy that suggests it and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but guess what? If you suck at LHE, slowly but surely (and maybe not even that slowly) you're still going to lose your roll.

My point is, there is no magic bullet. There's no one game where everybody who plays it surely but steadily builds a roll. Far and away the best game to play is the one that YOU are best at. That might be LHE, it might be STTs, it might be $2NL 6-max. It doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU play YOUR best game, not someone else's.

I have an exeption to this rule regarding certain games NOT to play, BTW, which I'll discuss in a minute. But for the moment, let's move on to...

PICK A GAME AND STICK TO IT

Once you've settled on your best game, I'm recommending that you stick to it and play nothing else. A lot of people talk about how they played STTs for a little while and had some small wins, then they tried LHE for a while then lost the rest of their bankroll playing HU cash games.

There's a couple of reasons I think you should play just one game. The first is that we want to leverage our skill as best we can. It makes sense that our skill advantage will be biggest when we're playing our best game. The second reason is that we'll learn more when we concentrate on just one game. If we skip from game to game to game we won't be improving much at any of them because we won't be playing them for long enough. If we stick to one game not only are we maximising our skill edge, we're also maximising our chances to get better at the game, increase our skill edge and build our roll.

There'll be time for dabbling in mixed games and learning new things later, after we've built a stable roll.

YOU HAVE TO GET LUCKY

This is the bit that's going to hurt for some people. Even when we stick to just playing our best game, we're STILL going to need to get lucky in order to build our roll. By definition we've probably got less than good BRM dictates we should have to play in the lowest stakes games. If you're starting off with enough for just one buy in obviously you'll need to get very lucky - you'll need to win in the first game you play in and then keep winning in quite a number after that so that you've got some breathing room.

Even if you start off with, say, 10 or more buy ins though you'll still need a bit of luck to avoid a downswing that wipes out your roll. They happen all the time to players with full size rolls and there's nothing that says it can't happen to us either.

What I'm saying is remember that luck plays a part. Pick your best game and play your best. If you still wind up busto, don't dwell on it or let it get you down. Just pick yourself up, start over and hope for a little more luck next time.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, STOP PLAYING MTTs!

Here's the bit where I'm going to contradict myself.

If I were to tell you I'd just made $10 from a freeroll and I was going to take it straight to a PLO cash game table to start trying to build a roll from it, how many people would think I was mad?

I think it might be more than a few. A select few of them will have prior knowledge of how much I suck at PLO. But others, even without that knowledge, would likely point out that the variance in PLO can be a killer and I'd be better off playing something with a more stable return. They'd probably be right too.

But here's the thing - a lot of those same people probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if I said I was going to take that $10 and play the Daily Dollar or something with it. Which is a funny thing, because as far as variance goes things don't really get much more swingy than multi-table tournaments. You certainly want a lot more than 20-30 buy ins to be rolled for them.

As discussed above, we already need to get very lucky to build a roll from nothing. We don't need to compound our problems by stacking variance against us - instead, we need to concentrate on games that offer us at least some chance of grinding a slow but steady path upwards. That usually means ring games or single-table SnGs and I'm recommending that, at least for the initial stages, you steer clear of MTTs and the horrible swings they bring. Even if you think they're your best game.

BE MILITANT AND CONSERVATIVE ABOUT BRM

In the beginning we're already going to be playing with bad BRM. There's not a lot we can do about it if we're not even rolled for the lowest stakes other than play our best and hope we run our roll up to a point where we ARE properly rolled for the level we're playing.

For that to happen though we have to be militant about the stakes we play. No playing in some random MTT or forum game or whatever, even as a one-off, unless we're rolled for it. Things like that are luxuries that we'll have later when we've built a stable roll.

We also need to be conservative with our bankroll. Most systems will tell you that if you've got 20-30 buy-ins for a given level you're rolled for it. I'm going to suggest you consider yourself "rolled" for a level when you've got 50 or more, that you don't move up in levels until you've got that much or more for the new level and that you move straight back down if you run bad at the new level. We worked hard to build that roll, we have to protect it as best we can from variance. Don't be ashamed of being a bankroll nit.

DON'T GET HUNG UP ON BONUSES

Free money is a beautiful thing. We all love it, and it's especially attractive when you don't have very much of it to start with.

Free money in the form of bonuses, however, usually comes with strings attached and those strings are almost always having to grind out x amount of frequent player points in real money games. Unlocked right, bonuses can be a fantastic way to pad your earnings and move your bankroll along faster. But done wrong they can send you hurtling backwards.

Take the recent Rush Week promo at Full Tilt. Anybody could participate, and to unlock the bronze level $10 bonus you had to grind out 10 FTPs a day on the Rush tables for seven days straight. Pretty sweet deal, right? Maybe, maybe not. If you're not rolled for the minimum $5NL that you'd need to play to earn the points, or if you're not any good at Rush, then taking this bonus on would be a terrible idea - chances are you'll end up losing more than you stood to win in bonuses and you might jeopardise your whole bankroll in the process.

The same goes for other things people consider doing to unlock other bonuses, like adding more tables than they're comfortable with to run points up faster or playing at higher stakes than they're rolled for. It's a slippery slope, I'm suggesting you just avoid it altogether.

As long as there's competition between online poker sites there'll be bonuses, so there's always another one somewhere around the corner. Stick with the plan, work through the bonuses that you can get safely by just and just playing your normal game at your normal limits and ignore the ones you can't get.

STOP TALKING AND START DOING
(OR "NOBODY ACTUALLY READS YOUR BLOG ANYWAY SO WHY STRESS YOURSELF")

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We've all seen it - someone comes along on a board or starts a blog talking a whole lot about how they're going to build a roll from nothing or how they've got this freeroll cash and they're going to run it up and make loads of money. Some of the dedicated ones even give us day by day or game by game updates for a short period... until the inevitable post where they tell us they're busto either because they played bad, they didn't follow BRM, they had to withdraw all their money for some inane reason or, my personal favourite, the donks ate their bankroll.

Save yourself the time and embarassment by talking less and DOING more. Use the time to actually review your games, rather than telling the world about every single bad beat you ever get. Post actual problem hands for analysis and ask meaningful questions that might help you improve your game, rather than telling everyone about every tiny fluctuation in your bankroll.

You're also putting unnecessary pressure on yourself. Chances are somewhere in the back of your mind there's a though along the lines of "What will I be telling my readers after this session?" and that can have an adverse effect on your game. So stop talking and start doing instead.

That's it, for the moment at least. Run good y'all.

I have certainly fallen for chasing after bonuses at the expense of my bankroll. I love the amount of thought that went into the original post as well as the different opinions.
 
Greg Austin

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this is good advice, thanks for the post!! im going back to reading for a bit, I cant even play cardschat freerolls. the restrictions are a little crazy. I need the freerolls to build. so far I have 75c o acr, gotta build!!!!
 
Bankroll Building - Bankroll Management
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