Building from a baby bankroll

[bcappelli]

I’m half laughting half crying today!! I losted all i had, and I have only $0,09 now

 

[konatus]

Long Post But Good

I was reading your post, I agree with most that you said.

We get a lot of discussion on here around what to do when you're trying to build a bankroll from a small amount. Maybe you've just had a freeroll cash, maybe a friend's been kind enough to transfer you a small amount or maybe you've deposited in the past and you've only got a few bucks left. How do we take that amount and turn it into a real bankroll?

What I've tried to do below is dump the bulk of my experience on the subject into one post. For those wondering about my credentials, I've been playing for the past couple of years on a roll built from freeroll cashes. I'll warn readers from the outset, I don't have any easy answers or shortcuts. But I think what's written here might be helpful in at least dispelling some of the myths and crazy ideas people have about undertaking this task and hopefully keep them on track while they're attempting it.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET

There's loads of discussion on this point - time after time people have asked "What's the BEST game to play with a bankroll of (insert tiny amount here)?"

The truth is there IS no answer to that question. Everybody's different and we all have different strengths and weaknesses as players. I might have built a roll playing nothing but small stakes limit mixed games. Does that mean it's going to work for you? Dear gawd no! That'd be suicide for most people, since most people don't have the first clue how to play mixed games.

That's an extreme example, I know. It should be obvious to most people that if they suck at mixed games then they shouldn't be putting any of their baby bankroll on a mixed game table.

But there's other advice that sounds more reasonable but can be just as dangerous. How often have we heard, for example, that limit hold 'em is a great way to build a bankroll because it doesn't carry the risk of losing your whole stack in one hand like NLHE does? I know there's more than one lesson in the Full Tilt Academy that suggests it and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but guess what? If you suck at LHE, slowly but surely (and maybe not even that slowly) you're still going to lose your roll.

My point is, there is no magic bullet. There's no one game where everybody who plays it surely but steadily builds a roll. Far and away the best game to play is the one that YOU are best at. That might be LHE, it might be STTs, it might be $2NL 6-max. It doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU play YOUR best game, not someone else's.

I have an exeption to this rule regarding certain games NOT to play, BTW, which I'll discuss in a minute. But for the moment, let's move on to...

PICK A GAME AND STICK TO IT

Once you've settled on your best game, I'm recommending that you stick to it and play nothing else. A lot of people talk about how they played STTs for a little while and had some small wins, then they tried LHE for a while then lost the rest of their bankroll playing HU cash games.

There's a couple of reasons I think you should play just one game. The first is that we want to leverage our skill as best we can. It makes sense that our skill advantage will be biggest when we're playing our best game. The second reason is that we'll learn more when we concentrate on just one game. If we skip from game to game to game we won't be improving much at any of them because we won't be playing them for long enough. If we stick to one game not only are we maximising our skill edge, we're also maximising our chances to get better at the game, increase our skill edge and build our roll.

There'll be time for dabbling in mixed games and learning new things later, after we've built a stable roll.

YOU HAVE TO GET LUCKY

This is the bit that's going to hurt for some people. Even when we stick to just playing our best game, we're STILL going to need to get lucky in order to build our roll. By definition we've probably got less than good BRM dictates we should have to play in the lowest stakes games. If you're starting off with enough for just one buy in obviously you'll need to get very lucky - you'll need to win in the first game you play in and then keep winning in quite a number after that so that you've got some breathing room.

Even if you start off with, say, 10 or more buy ins though you'll still need a bit of luck to avoid a downswing that wipes out your roll. They happen all the time to players with full size rolls and there's nothing that says it can't happen to us either.

What I'm saying is remember that luck plays a part. Pick your best game and play your best. If you still wind up busto, don't dwell on it or let it get you down. Just pick yourself up, start over and hope for a little more luck next time.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, STOP PLAYING MTTs!

Here's the bit where I'm going to contradict myself.

If I were to tell you I'd just made $10 from a freeroll and I was going to take it straight to a PLO cash game table to start trying to build a roll from it, how many people would think I was mad?

I think it might be more than a few. A select few of them will have prior knowledge of how much I suck at PLO. But others, even without that knowledge, would likely point out that the variance in PLO can be a killer and I'd be better off playing something with a more stable return. They'd probably be right too.

But here's the thing - a lot of those same people probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if I said I was going to take that $10 and play the Daily Dollar or something with it. Which is a funny thing, because as far as variance goes things don't really get much more swingy than multi-table tournaments. You certainly want a lot more than 20-30 buy ins to be rolled for them.

As discussed above, we already need to get very lucky to build a roll from nothing. We don't need to compound our problems by stacking variance against us - instead, we need to concentrate on games that offer us at least some chance of grinding a slow but steady path upwards. That usually means ring games or single-table SnGs and I'm recommending that, at least for the initial stages, you steer clear of MTTs and the horrible swings they bring. Even if you think they're your best game.

BE MILITANT AND CONSERVATIVE ABOUT BRM

In the beginning we're already going to be playing with bad BRM. There's not a lot we can do about it if we're not even rolled for the lowest stakes other than play our best and hope we run our roll up to a point where we ARE properly rolled for the level we're playing.

For that to happen though we have to be militant about the stakes we play. No playing in some random MTT or forum game or whatever, even as a one-off, unless we're rolled for it. Things like that are luxuries that we'll have later when we've built a stable roll.

We also need to be conservative with our bankroll. Most systems will tell you that if you've got 20-30 buy-ins for a given level you're rolled for it. I'm going to suggest you consider yourself "rolled" for a level when you've got 50 or more, that you don't move up in levels until you've got that much or more for the new level and that you move straight back down if you run bad at the new level. We worked hard to build that roll, we have to protect it as best we can from variance. Don't be ashamed of being a bankroll nit.

DON'T GET HUNG UP ON BONUSES

Free money is a beautiful thing. We all love it, and it's especially attractive when you don't have very much of it to start with.

Free money in the form of bonuses, however, usually comes with strings attached and those strings are almost always having to grind out x amount of frequent player points in real money games. Unlocked right, bonuses can be a fantastic way to pad your earnings and move your bankroll along faster. But done wrong they can send you hurtling backwards.

Take the recent Rush Week promo at Full Tilt. Anybody could participate, and to unlock the bronze level $10 bonus you had to grind out 10 FTPs a day on the Rush tables for seven days straight. Pretty sweet deal, right? Maybe, maybe not. If you're not rolled for the minimum $5NL that you'd need to play to earn the points, or if you're not any good at Rush, then taking this bonus on would be a terrible idea - chances are you'll end up losing more than you stood to win in bonuses and you might jeopardise your whole bankroll in the process.

The same goes for other things people consider doing to unlock other bonuses, like adding more tables than they're comfortable with to run points up faster or playing at higher stakes than they're rolled for. It's a slippery slope, I'm suggesting you just avoid it altogether.

As long as there's competition between online poker sites there'll be bonuses, so there's always another one somewhere around the corner. Stick with the plan, work through the bonuses that you can get safely by just and just playing your normal game at your normal limits and ignore the ones you can't get.

STOP TALKING AND START DOING
(OR "NOBODY ACTUALLY READS YOUR BLOG ANYWAY SO WHY STRESS YOURSELF")

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We've all seen it - someone comes along on a board or starts a blog talking a whole lot about how they're going to build a roll from nothing or how they've got this freeroll cash and they're going to run it up and make loads of money. Some of the dedicated ones even give us day by day or game by game updates for a short period... until the inevitable post where they tell us they're busto either because they played bad, they didn't follow BRM, they had to withdraw all their money for some inane reason or, my personal favourite, the donks ate their bankroll.

Save yourself the time and embarassment by talking less and DOING more. Use the time to actually review your games, rather than telling the world about every single bad beat you ever get. Post actual problem hands for analysis and ask meaningful questions that might help you improve your game, rather than telling everyone about every tiny fluctuation in your bankroll.

You're also putting unnecessary pressure on yourself. Chances are somewhere in the back of your mind there's a though along the lines of "What will I be telling my readers after this session?" and that can have an adverse effect on your game. So stop talking and start doing instead.

That's it, for the moment at least. Run good y'all.

 

[Grearix]

tldr but I like the bullet points.

I don't agree with you about not to play MTT to build a baby bankroll. It will take more time maybe yes, but with cash games and Sit and go the chance you will loose all is much higher...

 

[Grearix]

I’m half laughting half crying today!! I losted all i had, and I have only $0,09 now

That's why ring games and sit n go are so dangerous. I am pro MTT. Slowly but surely.

 

[Grearix]

Very good advice, I now have my bankroll started slowly, but costs keep this money, you recommend me to increase my bankroll, I really like playing Mtt, thanks and greetings.

Agree with you on that. MTT is the name of the game.

 

[Grearix]

Hi guys. Unfortunately I have a lot of time that I can give to poker, advise me to start from now on please)))

Just start playing freeroll tournaments or if you don't have the patience to build up slowly, deposit 50 USD and start playing 1 USD MTT, or some NLH cash games (0.02/0.04) for example.

 

[Erase209]

Thank you for post!

 

[DINOAK1612]

Excellent post i really enjoyed reading it .
I will try to apply the principles.
Thank you OZ.:wavey:

 

[OzExorcist]

I don't agree with you about not to play MTT to build a baby bankroll. It will take more time maybe yes, but with cash games and Sit and go the chance you will loose all is much higher...

But... why?

Don't let me stop you playing MTTs if you want to play MTTs, but the facts don't lie: MTTs are the highest variance format of poker there is. Long stretches of missing the money or only mincashing being offset by the occasional deep run and big score. That's the reason I recommend avoiding them: with a micro bankroll you don't have enough to ride out a long unsuccessful stretch, you pretty much need to win straight away.

Other formats don't have that same variance, so you're not taking as big of a risk.

 

[Paya_31]

Agree with you on that. MTT is the name of the game.

Thanks, MTT is a form of poker. It's multi-table tournament. I really like this kind of game. It is what led me to play poker today. To you what format you prefer?

 

[seawolf84]

Great post! Thanks!

 

[badgerjim]

Distractions

Great post, lot's of info. Couldn't agree with One2Watch more, need to have limited distractions.

 

[XYZ2123]

Great post. Concerning BRM and how many buy-ins you need, I agree totally with being a bankroll nit. I would just add that it also depends on how many tables you're playing. Variance increases when playing more tables. You have less time to make each decision and more players and action to concentrate on.

For cash games, if you're playing live or one- tabling online, then around 25 buy-ins should be enough, but the number of required buy-ins should increase with the number of tables. If multi-tabling, then 100+ buy-ins.

For MTT's, which have inherently high variance, it also depends how many times you will rebuy/re-enter. For single buy-ins or freezeouts, I'd say 50-100. For multiple rebuy/re-entries/add-ons, or if playing multiple MTT's at once, anywhere from 200 to 500 buy-ins.

Of course it all depends what each player is comfortable with but in general, the more buy-ins you have the better. Just my two cents.

 

[colbear]

A bunch of us just cashed out our ACR accounts except $10 first 1 to $1k wins

 

[dear7]

I think it is impossible. I tried.

 

[colbear]

Not imposible

I think it is impossible. I tried.

I know a few who have done it already. I personally have gone to 3K from 0 . The biggest issue we are having is ACR right now lol

 

[willko01000]

Good advice

some good points and advice here.

I personally don’t believe in the concept of building up a bankroll from a tiny start.


I firmly believe in reinvesting into your game until you get your skill set up. Then investing into some larger tournaments to get to grips of how it feels handling that situation and then looking at how your skill set changes when you start to pre visualise winnings much larger amounts.


The advice of not getting stuck up on bonuses is very relevant as if your serious you should be looking at what game is right for your investment and return potential not what bonus you can get by playing in games that won’t give you the reward you need.

 

[ps_komaklos]

Oz. Thanks for that by now pretty old but really nice Post!
I think this covers pretty much all.

Im trying to build my bankroll from a very low starting point. Start at 7$. Down to 2$, and at the moment around 40$, im mostly playing NL2. Sometimes one of … no it is the hardest part for me, is to keep calm and just accept the lowest limit and stay disciplined. As long as i don't want to top up i have to grind out this level.
I guess its not that bad actually, I think the game became a lot tougher, last time i played regularly was back around 2009. And there were definitely more players around who played really bad. At NL2 there are still a few "sponsors" around but there are also more Reg like players. And so i guess its good to start at the bottom and work your way up.

 

[Betmakers]

Oz. Thanks for that by now pretty old but really nice Post!
I think this covers pretty much all.

Im trying to build my bankroll from a very low starting point. Start at 7$. Down to 2$, and at the moment around 40$, im mostly playing NL2. Sometimes one of … no it is the hardest part for me, is to keep calm and just accept the lowest limit and stay disciplined. As long as i don't want to top up i have to grind out this level.
I guess its not that bad actually, I think the game became a lot tougher, last time i played regularly was back around 2009. And there were definitely more players around who played really bad. At NL2 there are still a few "sponsors" around but there are also more Reg like players. And so i guess its good to start at the bottom and work your way up.

Nl2 seems to me suitable for starters. But I can not start with such small sums, but I lose a lot, because I do not follow the rules of bankroll. What do you advise? I'm just not interested in playing NL2, but not much money))

 

[ps_komaklos]

well i guess there is not much left then betmakers, play the lvl your comfortable with and lose the amount your comfortable with or start by playing by some guidelines for your bankroll.
F.e. grind for 25x NL2, 5x NL5 buyins. Play NL5 if you lose the 5 buy ins move down to NL2 again and try again, never lose all your money...

 

[Justin Bloomquist]

I am trying to do this myself. It is hard, but I think I can be successful

 

[lifesagamble99]

no idea if this helps anyone ive never used/been strict enough to stick with bankroll management but am about to now going into the future, but this is my bankroll management plan for no limit texas holdem going into the future lol got a minimum bankroll requirement for each stake and a working bankroll for each stake if you drop to near or below the minimum for the stake you drop down a level and play there instead and move up when got the working bankroll for a stake so basically you got 5buyin shot each time you move up to make it work at the next stake, the difference in bankroll requirements for each stake is based on the fact that if you are an actual winning player longterm your have more of an edge so less variance and potentially big winrates in the lower stake games but as you move up in levels opposition gets tougher trickier and edges become smaller so variance increases as does your risk of ruin so bankroll requirements for each stake progressively gets larger to negate risk of ruin and also so you can actually play there long enough even as a loser/dog to get enough experience learn to become a winner
minimum bankroll requirement for each stake
2nl =5buyins $10
5nl =9buyins $45
10nl =13buyins $130
25nl =15buyins $375
50nl =17buyins $850
100nl =19buyins $1900
200nl =22buyins $4400
500nl =25buyins $19'000
working bankroll requirements
2nl =10buyins $20
5nl =14buyins $70
10nl =18buyins $180
25nl =20buyins $500
50nl =22buyins $1100
100nl =24buyins $2400
200nl =27buyins $5400
500nl =30buyins $15'000

so my advice is to just start at the level you can afford follow the rules and go from there and if you can only afford to start at 2nl keep playing there until you manage to make a deposit stick and learn to win grow a roll, treat it like a game cause that is what it is after all and each stake level like unlocking a level in computer game or something

 

[FlopYourNuts]

I build a big bankroll from a small bankroll by taking big shots I feel like the littler ones barely help and aren't really worth the time. I feel like this is especially on Americas Cardroom because of how few entrants and tourneys there are. Would play on pokerstars if I didn't live in the US.

 

[DANQA]

thank you for the excellent information:burnout:

 

[AL THOMAS]

bankroll

I go through phases when I play really well try to think about my game and the games I play but when my bankroll gets to around 3 4 hundred I start joining 82 turbos at the last minute and really playing for the thrill of the gamble, I soon run out of cash miss the game get serious and play my way up again only to blast it off again. its a bit like my relationships with women I put in the effort get a really lovely girl friend then go wild and muck it all up. any advice on the poker the I still like changing girlfriends