Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

[Matt Vaughan]

Thanks Jilly. Flying out Thursday to be with my family and attend the funeral. Very fortunate to have a very reasonable bereavement leave policy here. It'll be nice to be able to be completely present for it.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I'm really not trying to bitch about runbad here guys, but I don't know what else I'm supposed to do to update.

I was down to $50ish in my account so I re-deposited $175.

I opened a session, 2-tabling 25nl and 2-tabling 10nl, and played about 20 minutes. Managed to lose about $85 before calling it quits after top boat < quads and overpair < overpair both for stacks. Virtually every time I had top pair I got snap folds OR I gii on a wet board vs. a short-medium stack with bottom two lol.

I mean the upside is that I didn't tilt until the end, and I snap-quit b/c I knew I would have thrown money away if I didn't quit. Other upside is... um. Wait no. There isn't one.

I haven't tried to figure it out, but I'm pretty sure I'm on a 40+ BI downswing now if you include live.

 

[BenjiHustle]

I thought you didn't want to play 25 and 10 at the same time...

Was that someone else?

I can't find the statement, so it may have been someone else. Either way, coolers happen, run bad happens, and I was told that the shizz lasts like 100k hands. I've never experienced a swing like that, probably because I wouldn't survive it. I must say that a nasty run like this must be bragged about as something you survived. As such, I made this for you. May it cast away the demons and allow you to experience the run good that a downswing like this should honor you with.

 

[Logan2]

Sorry for your loss man.


On the poker side, why not try regular tables instead of zone?
​

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Lol thanks Benji. Yes, I didn't want to mix 10nl and 25nl, but that was when I thought I could start incorporating WAY more zero-equity bluff lines to my game at 25nl. I was nearly certain it wasn't profitable at 10 though, so playing 2 distinctly different ways was challenging. Now that I'm tightening up at 25, I'm playing similarly across those tables.

Sorry for your loss man.


On the poker side, why not try regular tables instead of zone?
​

Thanks Logan.

As for regular vs. zone, I don't switch because even though they are probably a BIT softer, I don't think they are soft enough to make up for a ~2x difference in hands/hour. Definitely don't think my WR will be twice as high there.

In the past when I've played regular tables I'd say my WR was close to the same, plus I improved much more slowly seeing so few hands. Also a lot easier to get bored, unfortunately.

The plan is to stick with zone through 100nl ideally. Then if I start thinking about shotting 200nl I would probably get out of zone entirely, and start either shotting 200nl regular exclusively, or I would mix 200nl and 100nl regular tables. But I think until then the speed of zone is a huge benefit.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Duggs sweated me today, without his own tables up, which was sick cause he had solid input on tons of hands. We found some spots, and also discussed some of my general leaks. Good stuff to think about.

But overall I played extremely solid today and got completely punished for it. Coolered for stacks a couple times, and bad beat in some really disgusting spots.

It all culminated a few minutes ago at 25nl when I opened 66 in the CO and the SB called. The BB 3b on the small side. I flatted because we were a hair over 200bb deep with each other and the SB had 100bb in front of him. SB folded to the 3b and BB and I went HU to the flop.

Flop came T64 two tone, and villain nearly potted it. It was pretty clear he had an overpair. I made a small raise to ensure being able to get the money in. I figured villan was less likely to fold the flop to a raise than any of the other streets, plus JJ and QQ are a little prone to slowing down on this board type when overcards come.

Villain snap-jammed $50 over my $12 bet. I blinked, making sure this was, in fact, real life. Then I called. Villain had QQ, and for a moment my heart soared - yes - I was finally going to win a pot worth winning today.

Then a Q hit the turn and mouth dropped.

I mean literally dropped. The river card hit and I don't even know what it was except that it wasn't the 1 card left in the deck I needed. An almost breakeven session that had a 96% chance of turning into a winner was now a > 2 BI loser.

I don't really know what to do with myself. I'm not mad about it - just shocked. I know that this thinking is poisonous, but it's like no matter what I do I lose. I get it in with 45-95% equity a ton of the time but I lose most all in confrontations.

It's also incredibly demoralizing to deposit. I've not been a massive winner, making tons of withdrawals or anything, but I've also never been that guy depositing over and over. It's the deposits that make me feel the most like a fish, because I just keep reloading money, yet somehow can't ever win...

The sick part is, I actually draw some sense of satisfaction from today's session, because it's the one session where I was really, truly, SURE that I played pretty well, and have evidence that I ran like absolute crap. It's the only session I've walked away in AGES that's made me feel like I'm a winner in the game. Yet simultaneously it's a slap in the face because my account (that I deposited $175 to yesterday) is back under $70 again.


Again, I don't want to bitch to you guys, so I'm sorry because I know that's what it is. But I don't know how to be positive about this when I've been losing for months. I don't know how to persevere when variance tells me it's not even worth it. I'm not quitting or anything but it sure would feel good to tell poker to go **** itself right about now.

Wait -- I guess I can still do that.

**** you, poker.


And cause I know this post is absolute garbage otherwise, here you go guys:

:congrats:

 

[BenjiHustle]

Finally, a decent post! Lawlz I kid I kid. You're very hard on yourself.

F'real though, you didn't even have 10 buy-ins. It's going to seem really, really bad when you get hit up for so much of your BR at once.

Thought you were moving down. Too good for that?

 

[duggs]

dude i know the depositing stuff can hurt, but its all in your head. after black friday i was skittish about keeping my money online so i pulled it all off and just deposited whenever i needed to. its no biggie when most of your roll is offline, id consider it sensible. its not really busto, its just downswinging with offline.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Well I've deposited a total of 350 now, so more than 10 buyins, plus 25 wasn't the only the limit I've played.

It's not that losing that amount matters a ton, since it's not a huge % of my actual BR, but since depositing has been such a pain in the arse cause of my bank I'd really like to not keep doing it - and it's a complete mind-**** as well. Plus, 10 BI's should be plenty for a limit where my WR is likely pretty close to double digits.

Not "too good" for moving down, but as much as you seem to believe otherwise in other threads, moving THAT far down below my normal limits makes it difficult to play well. Plus thinking about how much exponentially longer it will take me to get anywhere. Moving from 25nl/10nl down to 10nl/5nl would likely add a couple months to the grind that just don't have to be there. But given how excited I am to re-re-deposit (hint: the least excited I could possibly be), I still might end up doing it at least until I can get back up to 150 or 200 online.

Basically, take a supposedly winning player, make him lose for 4 months straight with very, VERY few winning sessions during that time. What do you get? Is he still a winning player? I don't ****ing know tbh. Like I'm starting to think I'm just a breakeven or slightly losing player who ran really hot for a year. Just at the right clip for the right amount of time to convince me I was a winner. And now I'm just actually running standard for the first time these past months but I really suck.


I don't really believe that rationally, but those are the kinds of thoughts that permeate my head after this amount of time. If I could actually string a few wins together once in a while I think it would help enormously, but I just haven't. My winning sessions have been really isolated, so it's like at best I'm treading water vs. this tidal wave of losses.

I'm not even being hard on myself. If anything I should be harder on myself, looking for more leaks and improving my execution in game so I can maximize my chances of breaking out of this. I know these posts are probably really shitty to read so I'm sorry. I just want to describe the state of my brain right now with regards to poker.

In better news, I feel I finally have enough hands to start analyzing some common spots I face in-game. And the sick thing about Bovada is that I can see all the hole cards after the fact.

First spot I've been analyzing is when someone faces a raise to their cbet OTF. (Not necessarily vs. me, but most of them are against me so far lol.)

Have only looked at ~30 hands so far, all spots where UTG is the flop raiser. Shockingly, all of them except for like 2 were either TP or air, regardless of sizing (they ranged from min-raises to about 3x - with one complete airball 4x overjamming the pot). The other 2 were second pair, and third pair.

It's pretty interesting, because some of the airballs weren't even semibluffs either. Not even close. I'm looking forward to getting a bigger sample with more hole card outcomes so I can start to make some decisions about how wide I should be continuing vs. those plays, and what lines will make sense.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

dude i know the depositing stuff can hurt, but its all in your head. after black friday i was skittish about keeping my money online so i pulled it all off and just deposited whenever i needed to. its no biggie when most of your roll is offline, id consider it sensible. its not really busto, its just downswinging with offline.

Hey posted almost same time. Yeah I know it's all in my head - but that's the point isn't it?

I know I don't want to keep much online, but even with the amount I've deposited I shouldn't have to keep doing so in theory.

 

[BenjiHustle]

I don't see how mixing 25 and 10nl is a far step from moving down to just playing 10nl. Is a few months extra grind a lot to you now that you have your sweet job and such? What's the end goal that you've got in mind for grinding online?

Of course a winning player on a downswing is still a winning player. Until proven otherwise (by moving into the red for your career and then quitting while still in the red), you're a winning player. A 20-game hitless streak doesn't make Derek Jeter a scrub, just like a quarter of a year downswing doesn't make you a scrub. Logical fallacies are running amuck. And no, I don't believe that moving down makes you play worse. I've been all the way up and all the way down and it's truly just a matter of ego; mind over matter. It relates back to the question about your end goal, really. If you're in a hurry and have a lot of money to make, I can see impatience being warranted, but without those circumstances, it really doesn't matter, does it? Sticking with baseball references, saying that moving down stakes ruins your game would be like a Major League Baseball player saying that being moved down to the minors is going to ruin his game.

When the Diamondbacks exiled Trevor Cahill to the minors earlier this season, the instructions were clear.

Improve, and that’s the bottom line. Just come back with better execution and keep us in games, the organization said collectively.

During his absence, manager Kirk Gibson said decision-makers asked that Cahill make adjustments with his hand positioning and release point.

Upon his return, Cahill did that and more. In the process, he turned heads with improved performance and the Diamondbacks finally began to realize value with their high-priced right-hander

Trevor Cahill's full majors-to-minors-to-majors story is a perfect example. You can read more at the website listed in the quote if you're in need of some inspiration or belief that you can step back, improve with less pressure and a clear mind, and come back to where you were. Keep in mind that this man wasn't given a choice and was forced to step down which he could have used as an excuse (the game's different, easier, definitely don't need to utilize as many tricks and mental games).

A 10bb/100h winrate at 10nl is just as good as (or better than) a 4bb/100h winrate at 25nl. So, I guess the only question is whether or not you believe you can achieve that winrate at 10nl because that really is the only difference; aside from being easier and having less at risk at one time.

 

[duggs]

iv had plenty of swings, the fact we constantly agree on hands for one thing is reassuring.

i mean the sweat definitely ended worse for me than you.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

@duggs: Tbh agreeing on most hands helps my confidence a shit ton, but tbf I also play worse than I analyze. Obv sweat ended worse for you haha. How you feeling now btw? Tho that 2 outer for -200bb hurt like a bitch.

@benji: While I appreciate you trying to make me feel better I've seen you use this analogy before and still don't agree it applies here. If a pro baseball player moves down to the minors he doesn't change how he plays at all, and the speed with which he moves back up is an extremely different process imo.

There are aspects that are similar but if a pro plays very very well he's almost never getting dropped down in the first place.

I think 10nl is pretty different from 10nl/25nl since that's one of the biggest stake jumps you find. Plus it's 10nl/25nl to 5nl/10nl if I want any kind of reasonable volume. As for being in a rush, I think you're ignoring the fact that I'm not just moving down one limit, and it's not like it just happened this week lol. I was mixing 1/2 and 2/5 live. And the 2/5 I was in was legitimately tough for a live game. Then I dropped down a limit live. Then I went online (decrease of 2x or 4x in stakes to 50nl or 25). THEN drop down again.

If anything it's not like major league going to minor league - it's like someone at the highest minor league level being told he has to go play little league with 5th graders lol.

Realistically now I just don't want to deposit again so I might drop down after all but it's so hard to give a **** when playing for stacks is the equivalent of what feels like a single raise preflop.

It's not even that I'm proud or whatever. Do you like playing poker with no money involved at all? I'm not saying it's at that level, there's degrees to it. But at a certain level of smallness of money involved, progress feels like nothing.

 

[BenjiHustle]

I understand; I'm looking for light at the end of the tunnel here. I mean, I'm grinding 4nl like my life depends on it, with nowhere lower to go. Trust me, after crushing 600nl on Bovada the way I did over a month or two, playing 4nl is definitely not the same "rush" or level of engaging. I also wasn't thinking you'd mix 5 and 10, but instead a step down would be just 10, then a step down would be mixing 5 and 10, then a step down being exclusively 5... etc.

The baseball analogy is one that I've experienced myself (short of major leagues) but equivalent of going from mid-stakes to micros (single-A to AA to single-A short[which is below single-A]). I promise you, even in dollars available to the player (can make a living at AAA, can't below), it is equivalent. Sometimes you're playing your best and everything you hit is right at someone and you end up hitting .117 over 80-some at-bats despite making great contact every single time (equivalent of having the nuts OTF and being beaten OTT or OTR 75 out of 80 times or so, imo). Then you get dropped down. Is it because you're playing badly? No, you're in a slump. Sometimes it just takes a change of scenery to get a guy going right; I think it's the same in poker. Not trying to persuade you that the comparison is 100% spot on, but trying to show you that slumps happen everywhere and that people get pushed back for reasons beyond their control all of the time. The only difference, imo, is that you have the control to move yourself up or down in this case and may be making more of an emotional, stubborn decision than would be optimal.

I def. understand what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree. It's just a different point of view.

Something that I neglected to ask, though I meant to: Is it possible that you're outplaying yourself at 25nl on Bovada? I mean, the skill level is equivalent to most 4, 5, 6, and 10nl on other sites, maybe not even 10nl. You may be out-thinking the competition so much that it's working against you.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Yeah, that all makes sense.

Also, don't want you to think I'm not appreciative here. I like that you push back against some of the downer stuff I say, because it forces me to try to approach this stuff more rationally. I know better than most people that variance is everywhere, and I obviously can't evaluate how the situation would be for a baseball player since I'm not in that situation myself. So it very well could be more similar than I'm seeing.

Anywho, I guess my goal should just be to get a shit ton of volume. It's hard to see it just as a step down, because what it really feels like is just waiting to go busto. Idk if that makes sense, but after this long, there's kind of that underlying expectation of losing. I'm working on eliminating of lessening that, but it's hard when I legitimately don't upswing at all.

I guess moving down might be ok because it gives me the best chance of upswinging and also not having to deposit again. At some point it got into my head that 25nl was the first level where "real poker" happens so moving down below it always sucks.

That's outrageous of course though, since real poker happens at all levels. We still exploit our opponents' mistakes and try to make few mistakes ourselves. So meh, maybe it'll be good for me. But I know I won't like it. There's probably no getting around that though.

 

[BenjiHustle]

Nobody likes moving down. It's your mental stamina and strength that will help you deal with that while others are just wishing that they could experience movement of any sort. Every time I've tried to shoot 10nl so far, I've gotten smashed. I know I *can* beat it, but something's not going right and I'm learning a lot just by analyzing my game where I'm at. All of poker has gotten harder and continues to every day. My signature really says it all when it comes to this.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Are you still playing carbon? Cause carbon is tons harder than brovada.

 

[BenjiHustle]

Yeah, still Carbon. I get no rakeback on Bovada and so, if I end up being breakeven, I can always rely on volume to make me some cash. Sure sounds like a defeatist attitude on my part, eh? Lol

I know the last 2 things I said about you possibly outplaying yourself and the games getting harder are somewhat hypocritical of each other. Outplaying yourself, though, is what I think to be the most possible reality. It's hard to be a thinking player at these stakes sometimes. Super hard.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Fwiw, this really isn't the diff between a 4bb/100 at 25 and a 10bb/100 at 10. I didn't have a big sample at 25, but before my database got lost when my hard drive was wiped I had 45k hands at 25nl and was winning at 15bb/100.

Obv ran hot to have that but I don't think I ran on a super heater tbh.

I'm not doing much different than when I played there before. Aside from paying people off less lol.

 

[duggs]

Was sick for like 2 hours then went to bed, woke up feeling pretty shite but rallied with some pizza and presents, feeling fine now just a bit drained

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Was sick for like 2 hours then went to bed, woke up feeling pretty shite but rallied with some pizza and presents, feeling fine now just a bit drained

Rough. Glad you're feeling better now tho. Keep taking it easy as you're able.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Welp, 10nl zone not running...

 

[Fknife]

Welp, 10nl zone not running...

Whats the average player pool in those Zone games? I cant imagine Rush or Zoom not running, there are always lots of players there ;/

 

[BenjiHustle]

I assumed it was the more popular way to play. That's odd. 10nl reg then?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

No 10nl reg tables either, weirdly enough...