Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

[skrsh76]

I'm working on an EDI team for a healthcare software company.

Thanks for responding. Good luck with your new job.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Thanks for responding. Good luck with your new job.

Thanks!

No, I mean, you're good enough to play poker and poker provides the opportunity to make unlimited money on a schedule that is written by you which is infinitely valuable in itself. As such, I think it's a valid question.

Ok - I wasn't sure, since as you may be aware, I'm on a pretty massive downswing. To try to answer your question:

Has "going pro" ever crossed my mind? In just a phrase, of course. There are many aspects of poker I find fulfilling, and even though I could potentially struggle with the idea of making my entire living off of people who have no idea what they're getting themselves into, I also understand there are ways to counteract this: being a source of friendly, competitive entertainment to opponents, volunteering for and donating to charities, etc.

From a skill/A-game standpoint, I think I could do it. I don't mean that in an egotistical way, though I understand it has to come across that way a little. But I mostly mean it in that the level I think on at my best is far higher than nearly all the other players I've ever played against. This implies I haven't reached my peak limit yet - and I think there's a ton of room for improvement to my A-game, which would allow me to move up, etc.

That being said, I don't play my A-game 100% of the time. I think that if I were playing full-time I would be forced to improve my execution - thereby playing closer to my A-game more of the time - but I'm unsure whether I could maintain that for the kinds of hours I would have to.

Probably the biggest thing holding me back from even trying to go pro is simply starting capital. I won't go into exact numbers for my liferoll, since I see no reason to, but the fact is that at my peak, my BR was $10,000. Even IF I had a liferoll worth 6+ months of expenses, this would not be enough to go pro with imo. I would be playing live exclusively, since I don't want to move out of the US, so at minimum I'd have to play 2/5 to make enough money to live on (increase liferoll) and ideally move up (increase bankroll).

The disappointing truth is that 10k isn't enough. 20 (or fewer) buyins doesn't decrease my R-o-R enough to the point where I would be comfortable taking that kind of plunge. My parents could help me out if things went horribly wrong, so my true risk is a little lower. But I don't want to take that kind of risk when I don't need to. I have an opportunity with a great company that has both competitive salary and benefits. I'm living in a great area that's safe, and where the cost of living isn't too bad. That's enough for now.

The last piece is that, while poker is a big passion of mine, I have other passions as well. If I'm not playing poker every waking moment, it's okay. I think I'm going to like my job a lot - maybe enough that given the chance I wouldn't try to play poker instead. But if 5 years from now I find myself with the itch...

Well I'll have a heck of a lot more money to my name by then. Maybe not enough to take the plunge, but enough to where I could start saving up and planning.

I hope that kind of answered your question. I ended up writing more than I meant to, but I think all of it is relevant. Hopefully it didn't get too rambling. Let me know if any of that needs further clarification.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

I'm actually kinda pumped Benji brought this up. This is the kind of stuff I Google now and again in hopes of getting thoughts on the subject from players that are similar to myself. Unfortunately, all I usually find is "OH FOR SURE I CAN GO PRO - I'M BEATING 1/2 FOR $35/HR OVER LIKE 75 HOURS" from some random forum posters with a post count of 40. I'll offer my thoughts based on Scourrge's response.

There are many aspects of poker I find fulfilling, and even though I could potentially struggle with the idea of making my entire living off of people who have no idea what they're getting themselves into, I also understand there are ways to counteract this: being a source of friendly, competitive entertainment to opponents, volunteering for and donating to charities, etc.

The last piece is that, while poker is a big passion of mine, I have other passions as well. If I'm not playing poker every waking moment, it's okay. I think I'm going to like my job a lot - maybe enough that given the chance I wouldn't try to play poker instead.

These aspects of the pro poker life - fulfillment and enjoyment - are key, IMO.

First, fulfillment. Say you've got a great sample size, bankroll, life roll, etc., and you are in perfect position to go pro making a decent living. This may seem like a fantastic idea in the short term, but 20 or 30 years down the road, are you going to be able to look back and feel like you have accomplished something or contributed to the world in some way? I know for me, personally, poker wouldn't be enough. As Scourrge mentioned, I'd have to get involved with volunteer work at minimum.

Second, enjoyment in life. Poker isn't the be all end all. Sure, we all love the game, but if it consumed our lives, we might lose passion for it and, more importantly, life itself. It's good and healthy to have family, friends, hobbies, etc. Being stuck inside a casino every day is no way to live.

From a skill/A-game standpoint, I think I could do it. I don't mean that in an egotistical way, though I understand it has to come across that way a little. But I mostly mean it in that the level I think on at my best is far higher than nearly all the other players I've ever played against. This implies I haven't reached my peak limit yet - and I think there's a ton of room for improvement to my A-game, which would allow me to move up, etc.

That being said, I don't play my A-game 100% of the time. I think that if I were playing full-time I would be forced to improve my execution - thereby playing closer to my A-game more of the time - but I'm unsure whether I could maintain that for the kinds of hours I would have to.

To expand a bit, we can't forget the work that is required off the tables. Being a pro isn't as simple as getting good and showing up to the casino everyday. In order to remain pro and sustain the profitability and lifestyle of it, we have to constantly be reviewing sessions, improving, and even learning new forms of poker to ensure we don't fall behind.

On another note, one of the luxuries of playing poker as a hobby is the freedom to not play. If we get sick, take a vacation, or even just don't feel like playing, we can simply not do it and there won't be any real consequences.

Probably the biggest thing holding me back from even trying to go pro is simply starting capital. I won't go into exact numbers for my liferoll, since I see no reason to, but the fact is that at my peak, my BR was $10,000. Even IF I had a liferoll worth 6+ months of expenses, this would not be enough to go pro with imo. I would be playing live exclusively, since I don't want to move out of the US, so at minimum I'd have to play 2/5 to make enough money to live on (increase liferoll) and ideally move up (increase bankroll).

The disappointing truth is that 10k isn't enough. 20 (or fewer) buyins doesn't decrease my R-o-R enough to the point where I would be comfortable taking that kind of plunge. My parents could help me out if things went horribly wrong, so my true risk is a little lower. But I don't want to take that kind of risk when I don't need to. I have an opportunity with a great company that has both competitive salary and benefits. I'm living in a great area that's safe, and where the cost of living isn't too bad. That's enough for now.

Spot on. I think a large portion of amateur players fail to realize how much money is actually needed to begin a pro poker life. As Scourrge said, 6+ months of living expenses AND a full bankroll (40-50 buy ins minimum). And if you intend to build a larger roll and move up, you can't even cash out/withdraw all of your profit from poker. Not to mention occasional tourney buy ins...


Scourrge summed it all up pretty well. I just wanted to drop my input in the thread and fuel the discussion. I look forward to reading more opinions!

 

[BenjiHustle]

Ok - I wasn't sure, since as you may be aware, I'm on a pretty massive downswing. To try to answer your question:

Downswings are a part of poker. A downswing wouldn't ever be considered a reason not to go pro, imo. Your downswing went unnoticed by me, despite the talk about the Vegas trip and so on; I found it all insignificant in the overall picture. I know we don't know each other on any level, but I've read enough.

Has "going pro" ever crossed my mind? In just a phrase, of course. There are many aspects of poker I find fulfilling, and even though I could potentially struggle with the idea of making my entire living off of people who have no idea what they're getting themselves into, I also understand there are ways to counteract this: being a source of friendly, competitive entertainment to opponents, volunteering for and donating to charities, etc.

Here's what I think of when I think of the possibility of playing poker professionally: what I do at the poker table in exploiting other individuals who are challenging me to a competition in which they put their money against mine is fair game. What I do with the money is 100% more important than the way that I get it, especially when it's simply by being better in competition. Volunteering and donating is great, and it is more than I've ever had the time to do while I was working a job and struggling to pay bills.

From a skill/A-game standpoint, I think I could do it. I don't mean that in an egotistical way, though I understand it has to come across that way a little. But I mostly mean it in that the level I think on at my best is far higher than nearly all the other players I've ever played against. This implies I haven't reached my peak limit yet - and I think there's a ton of room for improvement to my A-game, which would allow me to move up, etc.

This will always be true. As long as you continue to believe this, there's no limit to how well you can compete.

That being said, I don't play my A-game 100% of the time. I think that if I were playing full-time I would be forced to improve my execution - thereby playing closer to my A-game more of the time - but I'm unsure whether I could maintain that for the kinds of hours I would have to.

I understand that feeling, but I'm sure that the realization that this means more would be enough to pull you through. You don't seem like the unmotivated type.

Probably the biggest thing holding me back from even trying to go pro is simply starting capital. I won't go into exact numbers for my liferoll, since I see no reason to, but the fact is that at my peak, my BR was $10,000. Even IF I had a liferoll worth 6+ months of expenses, this would not be enough to go pro with imo. I would be playing live exclusively, since I don't want to move out of the US, so at minimum I'd have to play 2/5 to make enough money to live on (increase liferoll) and ideally move up (increase bankroll).

The disappointing truth is that 10k isn't enough. 20 (or fewer) buyins doesn't decrease my R-o-R enough to the point where I would be comfortable taking that kind of plunge. My parents could help me out if things went horribly wrong, so my true risk is a little lower. But I don't want to take that kind of risk when I don't need to. I have an opportunity with a great company that has both competitive salary and benefits. I'm living in a great area that's safe, and where the cost of living isn't too bad. That's enough for now.

Totally legit I would consider this the actual reason. I would take action on a bet that you would go pro if presented with 100k. It's always about the money because when money isn't a factor, the only question is: "What is the dream?"

The last piece is that, while poker is a big passion of mine, I have other passions as well. If I'm not playing poker every waking moment, it's okay. I think I'm going to like my job a lot - maybe enough that given the chance I wouldn't try to play poker instead. But if 5 years from now I find myself with the itch...

Well I'll have a heck of a lot more money to my name by then. Maybe not enough to take the plunge, but enough to where I could start saving up and planning.

If you have the money, it's just all about the dream. If your job makes enough for you to realize your dream, sweet. I just can't see the dream involving working under someone else, personally.

I hope that kind of answered your question. I ended up writing more than I meant to, but I think all of it is relevant. Hopefully it didn't get too rambling. Let me know if any of that needs further clarification.

Absolutely! I appreciate you putting in so much thought and consideration. I understand that I'm super simple. I could only dream of having 10k in any way, shape, or form. I think that's what separates our mentalities the most. That amount of money, to me, is unheard of. If I got that playing poker, I'd sh*t myself. Maybe I'd roll in it. That alone would solve like... All of my problems. Lol I'd probably retire.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Well, I just got back from an 8-hour break-even session (I didn't even touch on what a mind-**** poker is - how many jobs are there where you can not make money or even lose some after working 8 hours?!). So I'm pretty tired. I might come back later with more detailed thoughts, but main points I've gotten from discussion so far:

Sand: Mostly agrees with me - particularly with BR considerations - and emphasizes that there's more to life than poker.

Benji: Thinks I should go pro with the now only 3k I still have in my BR. Hehe.

No but in all seriousness Benji, I know enough about your situation to understand how the thought of 10k fits into your overall poker scheme. I know that you had a lot of trouble getting by, and poker was one of those "only option" type things.

To add a couple thoughts about your reply though:

1. While 10k seems like a lot - and it definitely felt like a lot for most of the time that my BR was that size - that doesn't mean it is enough to use to both grow a BR and pay myself a decent wage. (Here I'm saying decent as in approximately the same, or better than, what I could make working elsewhere.) I'd have to move cities, I'd have to play 2/5, and I'd have to move up. With a 10k BR, and probably fewer than 4 months of living expenses to my name, I'd struggle to not bust. Add the emotional and mental strain, and who knows, maybe I'd start playing bad.

Also, I don't mean to come across as though your accomplishments aren't worthwhile, because I feel the opposite way. But I've read a decent portion of your blog, and I have to say that given your starting BR, you needed to at least run AT EV or better to be as successful as you were.

And for me, even if I started with 10k, and had 4 months of living expenses, and only took 2k out of my BR per month for expenses etc (wouldn't be that great of a wage), there's a reasonably good chance I would be broke by month 7 or 8. I'm not saying my expected outcome would be busto-ness. But it'd probably be around 10-20% chance. That's an enormous risk-of-ruin.

2. Your 100k scenario: This one is pretty interesting imo, and Sand and I have actually discussed this before. The thing about being HANDED 100k (assume all my other money is taken) is that while I could probably survive playing 2/5, I wouldn't be able to save up much etc. So it all kind of depends on whether I'm trying to use poker as a short-term income source or as a long-term career. Both have their issues. For short-term, even if I'm only playing as a pro for about 5 years, it will really limit my ability to get a job in a non-poker related industry in the future. If long-term, it's VERY tough to map the future of poker's landscape. As much as people want to think they will be profitable forever, the truth is that poker - NLHE in particular - is developing extremely rapidly. Also, the variants of today will not be the variants of tomorrow. I've dabbled in PLO, Badugi, 2-7 Triple Draw, HORSE, (p)OFC and some other variants, but I'm by no means proficient. I don't know if I'm capable of learning new games quickly enough to be profitable and maintain whatever lifestyle I want.


Not trying to be a downer, and I honestly really do appreciate your enthusiasm and your confidence in me. But I see a lot of downsides. And again, things would be QUITE different if I hadn't landed this job. This job was plan A. My plan B was literally to move near my gf in PA and to grind out the summer close to full-time while also doing a bit of job-hunting. But if the job hunt didn't go well I was just going to try to stick with it.

 

[Fknife]

Well, I just got back from an 8-hour break-even session (I didn't even touch on what a mind-**** poker is - how many jobs are there where you can not make money or even lose some after working 8 hours?!). So I'm pretty tired. I might come back later with more detailed thoughts, but main points I've gotten from discussion so far:

Yea its probably the only job where 'the source' of your income can also take away money you earned while 'doing your job'...

You're talking mainly about live play, but what about online? Do you think that nowadays its so tough that its not even worth considering it? I mean, you would have to probably play at least small stakes ($1/$0.5; $2/$1) to make a living, am I right?

 

[loafes]

I'm with you scourrge Even though I couldn't even consider turning poker into my main source of income, it's something I've thought about before and decided that it isn't what I would want to do. Becoming 'semi pro' by that I mean having poker as a source of income but also a part time job to take some of the stress away and pay most of the bills is something I'd like to do. But being a full time poker pro presents a lot of challenges and although sounds idlyic in theory it becomes a very different beast in reality.


Also how can someone retire on 10k? Isn't that like 8 months of expenses, I guess if you lived in a cheaper country like mexico or Indonesia it would be a lot, but even then I can't see 10k lasting more than a few years.

 

[stately7]

Interesting convo guys on professional poker. I’ve been considering this issue in depth in 2014 as my live BR playing 1 / 2 has increased dramatically – and then nose-dived – and then started increasing again.

Clearly it’s possible to make a living from this game, but wow, it is no easy feat. Guys are doing it (look at Zach on CC right?) but the mental strain must be enormous. I currently work for myself freelance and I’m fortunate enough to be able to put in reasonable live volume more or less whenever I choose, but there’s no way I’d survive currently without a main alternative income. My goal at this stage is for poker to contribute about 10% to 20% of my total income, but I sometimes feel that even this is pushing it.

I sort of imagine the big tournament score as the only realistic way to generate enough of a big income boost to hit the ground running in any realistic career-orientated way, and we all know what a high variance route the MTT path is. Perhaps this is why the 100k scenario suggested by Benji and discussed by Sand and Scourrge is relevant to this discussion?

Which is why – I guess – that no matter how proficient you are Scourrge is at this game, I really do congratulate you on the software job, and at least the broader focus on other matters. I sort of feel work and life perspective (from other pursuits / interests etc) benefits the pro and semi-pro player too, in that they see more than only the game.

All of that said – I have nothing but respect for players that are doing it – day in, day out. I do believe major talent exists, but it does not look easy! (Easy game, lol)

 

[BenjiHustle]

And again, things would be QUITE different if I hadn't landed this job. This job was plan A. My plan B was literally to move near my gf in PA and to grind out the summer close to full-time while also doing a bit of job-hunting. But if the job hunt didn't go well I was just going to try to stick with it.

Most important is that your plan is working out for you. Like I said, it's a matter of entirely different perspectives.

Sidenote: I totally ran well above EV when I needed it (I'm assuming because I didn't have PT4 or anything, but there's no denying that I ran well). BRM was non-existent and really had no reason to exist since a loss left me in the same place as I was before. That being said, to not lose 3 buy-ins over the entire 6 months or so that I was playing on 3 buy-ins could be used to illustrate the power of NEEDING to play your 'A' game. I'm really appreciative of the fact that you even read a blip, much less enough to have seen how I ran. Thank you.

Yea its probably the only job where 'the source' of your income can also take away money you earned while 'doing your job'...

You're talking mainly about live play, but what about online? Do you think that nowadays its so tough that its not even worth considering it? I mean, you would have to probably play at least small stakes ($1/$0.5; $2/$1) to make a living, am I right?

Every job loses you money in the immediate present, especially if you consider time = money. More importantly, though, you've gotta get to and from work, be dressed well, probably eat out more or eat differently. Every job costs money and any business venture has the potential to go belly-up and leave the owner broke. Playing poker is like owning your own business. Every business, when owned, has the potential of making or losing money just like poker. Poker players are nothing more than day-traders, imo.

If you multi-table 25nl, you can make a pretty decent living, but of course you'd want to continue moving up, so you'd have to consider that. online poker's easier to make a living out of because of the convenience and the literally unending action, as I see it.

Also how can someone retire on 10k? Isn't that like 8 months of expenses, I guess if you lived in a cheaper country like mexico or Indonesia it would be a lot, but even then I can't see 10k lasting more than a few years.

That was a joke. I wouldn't literally retire with 10k. I was just over-emphasizing how important 10k is to me. My own bankroll is 140 dollars. Lol

Which is why – I guess – that no matter how proficient you are Scourrge is at this game, I really do congratulate you on the software job, and at least the broader focus on other matters. I sort of feel work and life perspective (from other pursuits / interests etc) benefits the pro and semi-pro player too, in that they see more than only the game.

All of that said – I have nothing but respect for players that are doing it – day in, day out. I do believe major talent exists, but it does not look easy! (Easy game, lol)

I totally, 100% believe that the job is an awesome thing and more importantly, the focus is amazing. I feel like this focus is one of the key aspects of being able to maintain a poker career.

I don't respect the players that are doing it at all, for the most part. It's actually a majority of the reasoning behind my wanting to eventually go pro, if the opportunity were there. Have you seen/heard/smelled some of these fools? Of course there are respectable players who have respectable backgrounds and future goals and so on and so forth, but the majority of the "pro"s that I've met are people who were handed what they've gotten in life and never once ground through a struggle, in life or in poker. They just do it for the lifestyle and have no real goals other than getting f*cked up and getting b*tches. And don't even get me started on the players who literally just want to degen their lives away and then write about it. Such a waste of human life.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

For short-term, even if I'm only playing as a pro for about 5 years, it will really limit my ability to get a job in a non-poker related industry in the future.

Completely forgot about that too. An employment gap of about 5-10 years on your resume doesn't look all that great if/when you need to start working again.

I think if a low stakes live player was to make the decision to go pro, he or she would have to execute the transition slowly. Maybe work part time for awhile as well until absolutely sure that poker is going to work out. That way long stretches of run bad wouldn't hurt as much and the resume wouldn't come to a screeching halt.



About the being handed 100k thing - I'll have to get back to you on that haha. My entire view on playing for a living has changed in the past month or so. I don't even remember what I said in my discussion with Scourrge, but I'm sure it barely applies anymore.

I don't respect the players that are doing it at all, for the most part. It's actually a majority of the reasoning behind my wanting to eventually go pro, if the opportunity were there. Have you seen/heard/smelled some of these fools? Of course there are respectable players who have respectable backgrounds and future goals and so on and so forth, but the majority of the "pro"s that I've met are people who were handed what they've gotten in life and never once ground through a struggle, in life or in poker. They just do it for the lifestyle and have no real goals other than getting f*cked up and getting b*tches. And don't even get me started on the players who literally just want to degen their lives away and then write about it. Such a waste of human life.

This is kinda what I was referring to when I talked about fulfillment. In the short term, it seems like a sick life, especially to somebody in their mid-20's. But how will we/these guys feel when they're approaching 50, and the only thing they've got to show for the last 30 years is a healthy bank account and perhaps a few big tourney wins that nobody is going to remember anyway?

I've often thought the same about pro athletes, like NFL/NBA/MLB players. Sure they're making tons of money, but when it comes down to it they are playing a game. There is a major difference though. Pro athletes can usually retire by 35-40 years old (and even earlier), so they have half their lives to enjoy and contribute to the world. I used to think "Why would he do that??" whenever I saw a rich pro athlete go back to college to finish his degree, but now I definitely understand why. Not the case in poker. Barring a huge tourney win or some non-poker investment, a pro often has to keep grinding.

I sort of imagine the big tournament score as the only realistic way to generate enough of a big income boost to hit the ground running in any realistic career-orientated way, and we all know what a high variance route the MTT path is. Perhaps this is why the 100k scenario suggested by Benji and discussed by Sand and Scourrge is relevant to this discussion?

Agreed. I'd have to bink at least six figures to feel even slightly comfortable about making poker my sole career.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Wow, some awesome discussion being generated in here. Great to see more life itt, so thanks Benji

Not sure I completely followed this part Benji?

Every job loses you money in the immediate present, especially if you consider time = money. More importantly, though, you've gotta get to and from work, be dressed well, probably eat out more or eat differently. Every job costs money and any business venture has the potential to go belly-up and leave the owner broke. Playing poker is like owning your own business. Every business, when owned, has the potential of making or losing money just like poker. Poker players are nothing more than day-traders, imo.

Are you talking about opportunity cost, or? Also, our dress code is 100% casual I understand the "owning your own business" part, but otherwise I'm not seeing how having a job loses me money in the immediate present, unless you mean literally the first month. After my first month, and after every month following, I should usually have more money than I had the previous month (barring quite-large purchases).

Then at this part,

I don't respect the players that are doing it at all, for the most part. It's actually a majority of the reasoning behind my wanting to eventually go pro, if the opportunity were there. Have you seen/heard/smelled some of these fools? Of course there are respectable players who have respectable backgrounds and future goals and so on and so forth, but the majority of the "pro"s that I've met are people who were handed what they've gotten in life and never once ground through a struggle, in life or in poker. They just do it for the lifestyle and have no real goals other than getting f*cked up and getting b*tches. And don't even get me started on the players who literally just want to degen their lives away and then write about it. Such a waste of human life.

I have to disagree somewhat. I don't think that most pros didn't work to get where they are. This isn't a game that rewards people who are lazy, for the most part. I understand the references you are making, having been in a number of casinos at this point. But for many of the types of people you're referring to, I often wouldn't consider them pros.

Yea its probably the only job where 'the source' of your income can also take away money you earned while 'doing your job'...

You're talking mainly about live play, but what about online? Do you think that nowadays its so tough that its not even worth considering it? I mean, you would have to probably play at least small stakes ($1/$0.5; $2/$1) to make a living, am I right?

If you multi-table 25nl, you can make a pretty decent living, but of course you'd want to continue moving up, so you'd have to consider that. Online poker's easier to make a living out of because of the convenience and the literally unending action, as I see it.

Yeah, I mean ideally I would be playing 1/2 minimum if I played online, and multitabling at least a little. But for the record, I was making about $6/hour grinding 25nl on Bovada. I ran well, for sure, and it was only about 60k hands, but keep in mind I was 1-tabling zone for the majority of that period = 80ish hand/hour or so iirc.

The other thing about online is that I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping a large % of my BR on a site that resides in a legal grey-area currently. So if I wanted to play online, I would either have to move to Las Vegas or New Jersey probably. LV would be nice since I would have many live options in addition to online options. New Jersey has Atlantic City, but their casinos can't really compare to LV.

And again, talking about short-term vs. long-term planning, US online poker is still back in a sort of infant-stage. There's still a non-zero chance (probably 10ish% super rough ballpark guess) that a federal bill will get passed banning OLP altogether. And even if not, the states are currently not 100% combined in terms of player pools, so the games could honestly pretty easily dry up within a few years if things don't change.

 

[duggs]

I wrote this earlier but didn't hit send in time. I agree with sand and scourge tbh, the other thing is that our poker earnings are projected to likely decrease as games get tougher/inflation happens, where as our projected earnings increase over time. The real opportunity cost is in 5 or 10 or 20 years time. If you wanted to play a lot for few

 

[BenjiHustle]

Wow, some awesome discussion being generated in here. Great to see more life itt, so thanks Benji

No, thank you.

Are you talking about opportunity cost, or?

I basically meant what you were saying about the first month (basically until you're paid), but keeping in mind that continued costs are irrelevant and the only way to truly get paid back for what you invest in a company is to eventually leave that company. If you work for one company all your life, they'll always have at least one free month of productivity from you and, as working for others goes, you must also realize that you'll never get what you're truly worth, which is a cost in its own. This is basically to suggest that pay does not inflate as the market does and your pay, starting today, will continue to stagnate while inflation continues to skyrocket (a simple economics assumption that could be entirely wrong in any given circumstance, but is generally useful and correct).

If this is to be the case, then every payday could also include a cost of inflation. As duggs says, poker earnings will decrease with inflation and the added toughness of poker games, but I would suggest that the amount of money to be won at a poker table directly correlates with inflation as the value of a dollar is the only thing that decides who wins or loses in a poker game (The World Series was started by the lone group of individuals that were willing to put up $10k; look at how many do it now). If the games are to get tougher, we would only really notice if we were away for a while and returned; a constant involvement in poker will allow us to grow with the game as opposed to seeing the game outgrow us.

I have to disagree somewhat. I don't think that most pros didn't work to get where they are. This isn't a game that rewards people who are lazy, for the most part. I understand the references you are making, having been in a number of casinos at this point. But for many of the types of people you're referring to, I often wouldn't consider them pros.

I understand what you're saying and to be honest, half of this is simply because you're a better person than I am. The other half is because I exaggerate just how many there are and I feel like you exaggerate just how few there are (degens). We don't have to look much further than poker forums themselves to see just how sick it gets and just how pure it gets, but the truth is that it always has to do with the level of respect that they have for the game and its players on a personal level. While I know pro's will likely not last if they are lazy, I do find a number of them outright disrespectful and immoral. The lazy do have their place, as well, but I have run into about 40% drug addicted fiends, about 40% super smart and super dedicated individuals, and the rest that I've met got into it for "the lifestyle" and could go either way as they're smart and dedicated, but very middle-of-the-road, new, and impressionable. I have one guy telling me currently that he's going to go live in Vegas for half of a year and see how it works out and he's smart, clean, and driven, but who knows what 6 months in Vegas non-stop casino hopping will do? I've seen some promising people go down some very dark paths; 2 of them (literally 2 did the exact same thing) ended up in prison after getting addicted to pills and robbing banks (and they were not cooperating, barely knew each other through a few poker games, and the instances were entirely separate, by years).

My point is that the mass majority of the players I know that went pro were handed a bankroll. Whether it was their college fund, a savings account from their folks, drug money, whatever... They had a bankroll before they started playing poker and have never actually struggled their way through building up a poker foundation to build a poker career on. Most of them used college funds or living expenses checks from school loans. It just makes me sick to see some pretty bad players being able to do it for a living simply because they have the money and I don't. I have a much more cynical view of it all, but I've been on a much more negative end of it all and seen people think they had it figured out just to come to the realization that they could play poker really well, but didn't have life figured out. << This is probably one of the reasons I get awe struck when someone who has such a good head on their shoulders does NOT go pro; because it's literally been the only thing that kept a number of people that I know from successfully doing it themselves.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

This is basically to suggest that pay does not inflate as the market does and your pay, starting today, will continue to stagnate while inflation continues to skyrocket

I mean, of course wages aren't going to match inflation, but generally speaking, they do in fact increase due to raises, however small they may be. A non-poker career can also offer valuable non-wage benefits like health care and retirement, and you can't ignore paid time off since, in poker, if you don't play you don't get paid, whereas at a "normal" job you can take multiple weeks and holidays off and still get a paycheck. There is also the aspect of promotions. Even if, for example, Scourrge's position doesn't see significant pay raises, there is still potential for being hired in to a higher, better paid position either at his current employer or another.

Playing poker for a living means you have to pay for your own health care/benefits, save money for later in life (retirement), and make enough so that you can have "vacation time" and be able to withstand a few weeks without pay, all awhile making sure you earn enough to pay the bills, live comfortably, and build your bankroll for future level increases. It's hard to imagine things wouldn't be incredibly stressful for a 2/5 "pro." Since a non-poker career may offer incredibly low health care costs, extra retirement matching, paid time off, and the opportunity for advancement without cutting into earnings, poker profits have to be significantly more than a salary earned elsewhere.

 

[BenjiHustle]

I mean, of course wages aren't going to match inflation

This statement is sad enough, since this trend is relatively new (since about 1970) and only getting worse, exponentially so in America. However, all of the statements about healthcare and other benefits like paid time off are entirely too true. I simply did not think of them because I've never been granted benefits in a position that I held. True, it is good to have those benefits and should be considered. However, if poker winnings stay in-step with the rate of inflation, this differentiation alone would take care of the benefits and then some after less than a decade. As the dollar becomes less valuable, it just means more of them have to be put on a table in order to get in a game. Inflation directly correlates with how much money we can make in poker.

Generally speaking, I would think it's pretty easy to NIT it up at 2/5 for about 3-3.5 weeks/month and make ~10 buy-ins each month. That alone is a really nice salary; double what I've made in a year at my max, working 70 hours/week in a job that I loathed. Safe to say that this is another discrepancy leading to differing views/opinions?

Do cash game players pay their taxes? I know some that do, some that don't, and the truth is, that's about a $10k+ swing, easily. Does that factor into this equation? It must.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

As the dollar becomes less valuable, it just means more of them have to be put on a table in order to get in a game. Inflation directly correlates with how much money we can make in poker.

That's not really how it works though. 1/2, 2/5, 5/10, whatever aren't going to increase blinds/BI because of inflation. It doesn't make sense that they would since, after all, wages don't change with inflation, so increasing the amount of money required to play would only push people out of the game at a rapid pace. Poker winnings will be unaffected by inflation, and your win rate will remain the same.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

A few things in response to recent posts:

@Benji: While salaries in general tend to fall short of inflation, my company has actually stated that they attempt to keep in line both with competitors, but also other factors such as inflation. Does this mean it's a perfect correlation? No, of course not. But for a first job I really hit the jackpot in that and other respects.

@Everyone: The point about benefits is SO key, and I only didn't mention it before because of the sheer number of other factors that were being mentioned. In my job I get free healthcare, free dental, dirt-cheap long-term disability coverage, life insurance, and a pretty awesome 401k plan. Even if I am only with my job for 5 years, that will be an insanely useful start to retirement planning.

This leads perfectly into my next thought. I actually think that for someone like me, who is passionate about the game, still aspires to going pro, has not quite enough starting capital, but has a good job to go to, it makes even more sense to go with the job. It allows me to build up not only savings for retirement, but also (hopefully) a solid money reserve. It gives me time to build a bankroll not only from playing, but potentially adding into it if I see fit.

So in 5 years, if I leave my job and decide I want to try going pro, I have a solid seed in my retirement savings that is already growing. Feeding retirement early is MUCH more important than adding to it later on, so I wouldn't have to stress as much about "paying into" my retirement while playing. I could potentially have quite a few months of living expenses saved up, on top of a healthy bankroll.

This would lead to a much better transition imo, and let's be honest - I'm still going to be playing poker probably an average of at least 10 hours/week for most if not all of that time. So the games probably wouldn't "pass me by."

Generally speaking, I would think it's pretty easy to NIT it up at 2/5 for about 3-3.5 weeks/month and make ~10 buy-ins each month. That alone is a really nice salary; double what I've made in a year at my max, working 70 hours/week in a job that I loathed. Safe to say that this is another discrepancy leading to differing views/opinions?

Well I'm not sure you really appreciate how much variance there can be playing full-time for months on end, particularly when playing live and your swings just last so much longer. Not to mention I don't see 2/5 as a level where you can just nit it up and win big, but if you are playing in those types of games, point me to them

Regardless, even if I could average $5k/month ($35ish/hour, 140ish hours a month at 2/5?), there's no guarantee I would be making $5k every month. In fact it's conceivable that I could go 2 or 3 months breaking even. So either not paying myself wages (paying for bills from reserve cash), or paying myself wages and watching my BR decrease substantially each month (mind-****).

I 100% agree that our experiences make us see things differently. However, I think you're not appreciating one particular aspect: risk-of-ruin. I completely agree that if I were in a different situation, with no job prospects or a much WORSE job, my acceptable risk-of-ruin would be MUCH higher. I would value the chance at making a living at poker much higher, and therefore the EV of choosing it would go up, in spite of a potentially high risk-of-ruin. Keep in mind too, that the less money you have, the lower the inherent risk, since even if you lose everything, it is less significant. With a larger bankroll comes a greater risk, should you choose to "go all in" in terms of going pro without some sort of back up plan.

I'd like to emphasize that I don't claim that everything I'm saying is "right" in an absolute sense, but rather "right" for my situation. Undoubtedly there are many other scenarios in which I would be playing poker full-time or almost full-time right now. (That was what I tried to clarify by specifying my plan B, had I not landed this job (which again, is effectively a "dream job" for someone fresh out of school).)

I don't want to flaunt it, but it bears stating that there's no doubt I've been extremely lucky in just about every aspect of my life. I don't say it to be rude, but to point out that I'm well aware I don't particularly "deserve" all that much of what's been "given" to me. I worked hard for much of it, yes, but no harder than many other people in many worse situations. I hope that sort of clears up how I think about my situation Benji, since it kind of seems like you are a bit frustrated with how my responses have not been oriented towards the potential financial freedom that poker can afford.


As a bit of a P.S. before I forget: With respect to taxes, I would pay them. It's too dangerous to just keep all your money in cash, and I wouldn't want to have to deal with the IRS wondering how I keep paying my bills if it's not with stolen cash or something.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

That's not really how it works though. 1/2, 2/5, 5/10, whatever aren't going to increase blinds/BI because of inflation. It doesn't make sense that they would since, after all, wages don't change with inflation, so increasing the amount of money required to play would only push people out of the game at a rapid pace. Poker winnings will be unaffected by inflation, and your win rate will remain the same.

I was in the middle of typing when this was posted, so I'll just add my 2c. While I haven't done a ton of particularly high-level thinking about this (let's be honest, when do I partake in "high-level" anything ), Sand's statement was also my reaction. I don't see that the games would "automatically" change/warp with inflation.

What I COULD see happening is that people are paid more dollars (but a lower money value) that falls slightly behind inflation. People would then have a higher (relative to $1) risk tolerance and more people would tend to be willing to play higher limits.

 

[BenjiHustle]

I'm not frustrated, just learning. I dig the whole conversation and it's pretty clear how it all works out. It's a highly-individualized decision, for certain, and this goes to accentuate that. I think this is a good example of the logic and necessary thinking behind a decision like this and it's good that it happened somewhere because people like myself can get a lot better because of it. I mean, I don't know what it takes at all. I learned a LOT! Thanks to you and Mr Sandbag and others that I may have overlooked as I'm not scrolling posts. I don't think anything that I said is "right" either; I'm just a curious individual throwing around hypotheticals.

To be certain, I know that any decision that you make is going to be right for you and that's the most important thing. I was more curious as to why you are choosing to go the route, not trying to suggest that you shouldn't go that route. I'm definitely not trying to be that guy.

As for soft 2/5 games, Talking Stick Resort is a location in which people give away money hand-over-fist in a 2/5/300 split limit game. PF raise to $60? "One time." is the typical response from the fish who frequent these games. I love that response. Le sigh, it's been such a long time since I could get there.

 

[loafes]

With regards to inflation, most jobs actually increase their wages over time. Sure it probably will fall slightly short but it will attempt to keep up. The thing with poker is that blinds will stay the same so you'll be making the same amount but it will be worth less. And pokers prospects aren't only hampered by inflation, the games getting tougher/losing value will occur at a more rapid rate than inflation will occur to combat it a poker pro needs to keep moving up. Plus as others point out there is no extra benefits aside from making your own hours and even this isn't all hunky dory. Whilst it seems like you can chose your own hours, you're actually forced to play at times games are most profitable and will need to put in a lot of hours every week. Money management will be tougher as well, by this I mean that at a regular job you can budget each week based on your wage and extra money due to a bonus or whatever really is extra money. In poker your extra profitable sessions/tournament scores need to be put aside for when you hit down swings, in the mean time you need to keep expenses down because you never know when the next psy is coming or how much it will be.
And I'd also finally like to add a point to money management thing. You can't get loans in poker, except maybe stakes. If you want a car loan or a mortgage you're shit out of luck because I can't see any banks seeing a poker pro as a safe investment.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I'm not frustrated, just learning. I dig the whole conversation and it's pretty clear how it all works out. It's a highly-individualized decision, for certain, and this goes to accentuate that. I think this is a good example of the logic and necessary thinking behind a decision like this and it's good that it happened somewhere because people like myself can get a lot better because of it. I mean, I don't know what it takes at all. I learned a LOT! Thanks to you and Mr Sandbag and others that I may have overlooked as I'm not scrolling posts. I don't think anything that I said is "right" either; I'm just a curious individual throwing around hypotheticals.

To be certain, I know that any decision that you make is going to be right for you and that's the most important thing. I was more curious as to why you are choosing to go the route, not trying to suggest that you shouldn't go that route. I'm definitely not trying to be that guy.

As for soft 2/5 games, Talking Stick Resort is a location in which people give away money hand-over-fist in a 2/5/300 split limit game. PF raise to $60? "One time." is the typical response from the fish who frequent these games. I love that response. Le sigh, it's been such a long time since I could get there.

I hear you loud and clear

With regards to inflation, most jobs actually increase their wages over time. Sure it probably will fall slightly short but it will attempt to keep up. The thing with poker is that blinds will stay the same so you'll be making the same amount but it will be worth less. And pokers prospects aren't only hampered by inflation, the games getting tougher/losing value will occur at a more rapid rate than inflation will occur to combat it a poker pro needs to keep moving up. Plus as others point out there is no extra benefits aside from making your own hours and even this isn't all hunky dory. Whilst it seems like you can chose your own hours, you're actually forced to play at times games are most profitable and will need to put in a lot of hours every week. Money management will be tougher as well, by this I mean that at a regular job you can budget each week based on your wage and extra money due to a bonus or whatever really is extra money. In poker your extra profitable sessions/tournament scores need to be put aside for when you hit down swings, in the mean time you need to keep expenses down because you never know when the next psy is coming or how much it will be.
And I'd also finally like to add a point to money management thing. You can't get loans in poker, except maybe stakes. If you want a car loan or a mortgage you're shit out of luck because I can't see any banks seeing a poker pro as a safe investment.

Good point on loans. I guess the idea is to turn into a balla and just straight up buy a house without credit (thinking about just handing over $200k+ is making me sick to my stomach lol).

Solid discussion - thanks for some awesome food for thought, everyone! It makes me happy that I can go onto an internet forum - often a place full of flaming, trolling, etc - and find a thought-provoking conversation. Cheers to all! :icon_sunn

 

[BenjiHustle]

Solid discussion - thanks for some awesome food for thought, everyone! It makes me happy that I can go onto an internet forum - often a place full of flaming, trolling, etc - and find a thought-provoking conversation. Cheers to all! :icon_sunn

+1

I didn't really think of loans and such, either, but I also just assumed I'd be living my life spitting cash up front.

I did think of the possibility that you have a significant other, relative, etc. that's willing to put down a signature on a loan for ya. Kingpin type stuff.

 

[stately7]

+2 Yeah nice one, this is a great thread / site for some decent discussion!

Benji - you had me laughing with this statement - "Have you seen/heard/smelled some of these fools?" In some respects, that is totally true - the degen vibe really does exist in and around the game - and will probably always be an annoying factor, but at least, seeing as this has been covered, we can all sort of agree that many (the majority hopefully?) of truly successful pros are intelligent, humane and not entirely lazy people.

I think it kind of comes back to the "fairy tale" factor which obv the poker industry must wish to proliferate. I'm talking about the 1 big MTT score, so many pro stories I read seem to begin this way (not all ofc). What I dislike about this is that it's a bit of an "in your dreams" scenario and appears to promote fuzzy thinking in some respects. Oh, it's such a wonderful and maddening game.

 

[BenjiHustle]

+2 Yeah nice one, this is a great thread / site for some decent discussion!

Benji - you had me laughing with this statement - "Have you seen/heard/smelled some of these fools?" In some respects, that is totally true - the degen vibe really does exist in and around the game - and will probably always be an annoying factor, but at least, seeing as this has been covered, we can all sort of agree that many (the majority hopefully?) of truly successful pros are intelligent, humane and not entirely lazy people.

I think it kind of comes back to the "fairy tale" factor which obv the poker industry must wish to proliferate. I'm talking about the 1 big MTT score, so many pro stories I read seem to begin this way (not all ofc). What I dislike about this is that it's a bit of an "in your dreams" scenario and appears to promote fuzzy thinking in some respects. Oh, it's such a wonderful and maddening game.

Definitely agree that there are many pros that fit that profile. Those degens, tho!
That Backflip Tho!

As for the fairy tale factor, I definitely see the proliferation of this notion and what 1 big MTT score can do for you. I definitely see becoming a pro as a much longer process that involves stepping up through levels at cash games to minimize risk, but the hype definitely had me believing that all it takes is one big win and I'm a pro, at one point.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Do you ever feel like you do everything right and get nothing but pain? And no matter how much rationalizing you do, it seems like you're destined for failure?

That's how my last 2 months have felt. I've had scant few winning sessions in that time, and on top of the 2k+ I dumped on tournaments, I had a lot of poker and RL expenses, dropping my BR considerably. As I've said in the past, I'm not quitting poker - but I'm not having a great time of it either.

When I got back from Vegas, I wasn't pleased. But I also knew I'd played pretty solid poker the entire time I was there. I also had some more objective measure of my runbad, in that my hotel roomie, baudib1, also acknowledged the shittiness of many of the situations I was in.

And as I started to grind a little at the local casino here in Madison, I realized that I was indeed still playing fine. I had a couple winning sessions - nothing too special, but enough for me to feel like I was back in the game.

Then my last session this weekend happened. It was amazing on some levels. I was extremely card dead the entire night. But I built my stack from an initial $300 buyin to about $450, pretty much just from isolating with playable hands, cbetting, and double barreling in good spots.

It was good, because it showed me that I was adjusting extremely well to the table, and that I had a sense of who was folding, and how often. But then shit kind of hit the fan.

For one thing, any time I flopped any kind of hand, I either had to fold it on the flop or turn to a clearly dominant hand, or I got ZERO action. In fact I think I only won 2 hands at showdown the whole night (7ish hours). And here's one I had to work my ass off to get value on:

Preflop:
3 limps to me in MP, and I bump it to $15. My image at this point is a little loosey goosey, as people have seen me showdown a few hands that demonstrated very loose preflop iso's. 4 callers, and we go 5-way to the flop, where I'm 4th to act.

Flop: ($75) (5 players)
This is the first flop of the night where I've hit a reasonable top pair or better type of hand. Two players check, and a tight, straightforward player leads into me for $40. I instantly put him on Jx, since a stronger hand would be more likely to x/r, and a weaker hand wouldn't lead. A draw would most likely x/c. We are fairly deep at this point - approximately $400 behind. I opt to call, assuming I'll just blow all weaker hands away if I raise. The others fold and we go HU to the turn.

Turn: ($155) (2 players)
Villain thinks for a few moments and leads for $50. Based on his sizing I am pretty sure again that I am ahead. But his sizing almost appears to be a blocking bet, so again I call, hoping that he'll lead for another medium/smallish bet on the river.

River: ($255) (2 players)
Villain thinks for a fairly long time and checks. My default against many opponents who take this line would be to check, thinking I can't really get value. But even though villain is tight, he's straightforward as I said, and I don't have any reason yet to think he's thinking particularly well. That is to say, even though I only rep AJ+ with a call/call/bet line here, I think he will look me up with KJ and often QJ or even JT.

My only question now is sizing. The thing is, I'm targeting TP hands, and virtually nothing else (even if he has other things in his range), and I think (hope?) that he will be fairly inelastic. I decide to to bet $125, thinking that much better might just scream value too hard.

He tanks FOREVER and eventually calls with an unknown hand that I can only assume was something like QJ.


I went a number of more orbits without winning any kind of significant hand, but still chipping up here and there. Then I got into a couple frustrating spots.


Preflop:
A couple limpers, and I raise to $15. I get 4 callers... Here we go again.

Flop: ($75) (5 players)
I'm 3rd to act, so when it checks to me I'm not excited about cbetting into 4 players, and I decide to give up unless something unusual happens. It ends up checking around though, and we all see a free card.

Turn: ($75) (5 players)
It checks to me once again, and now I think I can probably take a stab at the pot. Everyone has checked at least once in what I consider a "meaningful" situation (the first check from the players in front of the PFR usually doesn't mean anything). I bet $35, and the player next to act calls fairly quickly. He's been pretty passive and not overly loose. I put him on 9x, flush draws, and straight draws. It folds around, so I think I may get him to fold OTR.

River: ($145) (2 players)
Perfect card for me. Everything misses, and I credibly rep Jx if I bet. I go ahead and bet $90, and villain goes into the tank. He starts talking aloud, saying things like "no, I just can't put you on a J when you check the flop..." (What? Don't ALL 1/2 players check Jx as the PFR there???)

He eventually calls me down with 98s, and I'm back to being up only about $100.


That hand had me a little frustrated, but I reminded myself that I was actually still up money, which was impressive given how few value hands I had had. An orbit or two later, I got into my biggest pot of the night.


Preflop:
Folded to me in MP2, and I make it $10. 3 players call me.

Flop: ($40) (4 players)
I'm 3rd to act out of 4, so when it's checked to me, I make a cbet of $30. The board isn't perfectly dry, but no FD makes me more inclined to just go for it. The player from the previous hand calls next to act in the CO, and the others fold.

Turn: ($100) (2 players)
Even though there's no FD, I think his range is pretty capped to one pair here given he's another fairly straightforward player. He's also a little looser preflop, so I think he likely has to fold 9x and weak Jx if I barrel the turn. He may even release some draws like 87 and QT here. I bet $70 to threaten a lot of damage on the river. He tanks for quite a while before calling, and I'm now feeling pretty good about being able to get him off his hand on the river.

River: ($240) (2 players)
I have $220 behind, and tank for a little while before shoving all in. I think most of his hands are actually not draws at this point, which is why I think this scary card is actually a decent one to barrel. He tanks down a very long time, and is talking to himself: "There's a bet... I knew it was coming too."

Villain gets extremely close to his time bank running out (electronic tables) and finally calls with 77.

He exclaims, "ALWAYS go with your read!!" as if he was extremely certain. I can't help but mutter "and then gloat about it" to myself.

I'm more shaken up than I would have expected. Sure I just bet 100bb on the river, but it's not the money - I was so sure he was going to fold. I actually feel heat under my the collar of my shirt as EVERY single player at the table tells him what a good call that was.

In my head I'm shaking - but maybe that's happening on the outside - that wasn't a good call at all!

One player on my left turns to me and says, "I don't know about that, but that was a helluva bet... That was a good bet. A damn good bet." Never mind that was one of the few players at the table whose poker skill seemed higher than super-nit or mega-fish level -> that was too much for me to take sitting down. I let my rebuy timer tick all the way to zero, not trusting myself to click the button on the screen.



I calmly - or at least stoically - packed up my things and got up from the table and walked away to the restaurant area of the casino. I got a glass of water and just sat for about 5 minutes, trying to decide if I wanted to keep playing. I felt I was playing well, but I knew that hand had shaken me up a lot. Eventually I realized that the table was still soft, and my image was unbelievably perfect for extracting value.

I went back to the table and sat down in my same seat. I turned to the player who had stacked me and unsarcastically said, "nice hand man." Then I got back to the business at hand, rebuying for $300.

Nothing much happened for a couple orbits, then I found my spot:


Preflop:
UTG opens to $12, and gets 3 callers. I squeeze to $60, hardly believing my hand. It's folded around to the 3rd caller, who calls.

Flop: ($155) (2 players)
Villain checks and I cbet $75. To my slight surprise, he calls after a short period of thought.

Turn: ($305) ( players)
Villain checks again, and I don't wait too long before shoving for about $185 effective. Villain appears to be thinking. 20 seconds go by, and he calls.

The virtual cards flip. My KK. His... What is that? 87? What does that make his hand, is that a draw?

It takes the river falling for me to realize that I was just slowrolled by the nuts. I was drawing dead.


I stare at villain, my mouth actually slightly agape in shock.

"You know that's the nuts, right?" I asked, dumbfounded. This can't happen to me again. Not so soon - how are people just slowrolling the goddamn nuts against me? Twice in two days?

The now real-life Villain - at least that's how he appeared to me now - just looked back at me. Whether his stare was unknowing, uncaring, or just pure evil didn't matter anymore. I couldn't stay in that room anymore.

The next hand was dealt out in the meantime. I still had $75. I vowed I wouldn't spew it all away - I looked down at 55 and overlimped in MP. I signed my screen out so I would quit after this hand, and as I did, the flop came out - 5 players viewing it:

Q85r

I... what?

It somehow checked around to me, and I bet a reasonable $10. I got snap-folds.

"I had a set," was all I could say.

I wasn't calm anymore, nor could I pretend to be. I snatched up my phone and player's card and got up. I pushed my chair back toward the table, nearly smashing the one player who had told me I had made a decent play.

"I'm so sorry," I told him genuinely - praying he could understand my roughness was from frustration, and that I truly didn't mean anything rude toward him.

"Good game I guess," I proclaimed to no one in particular.

I left as quickly as I could without falling. When I got to my car I just sat there. I was more than angry - I was livid. Eventually I summoned the will to drive home. The bad feelings lingered even as I pulled in, and walked up to my apartment. As I fitfully fell asleep that night, I wondered if anyone who has done as poorly as I have in such long stretches has ever gone on to succeed at poker. Negatives were all that could rattle around my brain.