F1 Racing Thread

[AtiFCOD]

Alonso is still in the top 3 drivers. Yeah he whined at McLaren because he realized after joining the team that ha was the 2nd pilot after Hamilton (he won 2 championships by that time).

This year he did driving mistakes what he didnt do before. It can be hard for him that Ferrari isnt competitive against Red Bulls.

 

[Pothole]

Looks good on 'em and I hope Alonso loses the points. Lost all respect for Massa too, lied in the stewards room as his 'explanation' was nothing like the post race interview. The 1st time I ever heard a race engineer apologize to a driver for ordering him to let a maggot pass him.


Ferrari referred to WMSC over team orders


Following their controversial one-two result at the German Grand Prix, Ferrari have been fined US$100,000 by the FIA after race stewards deemed they had breached sporting regulations and the case has been referred to the World Motor Sport Council (WMSC).

Ferrari driver Felipe Massa, who had been leading the Hockenheim race, moved aside to allow team mate Fernando Alonso past on Lap 49. A few moments before, Massa’s race engineer Rob Smedley had told the Brazilian "Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?"

Although Ferrari insisted this did not constitute a team order, the stewards decided they contravened Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations, which states that "team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited", and Article 151 (c) of the International Sporting Code, which outlaws "any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally".

The stewards then handed Ferrari the maximum fine they are empowered to impose on a competitor and forwarded their decision to the WMSC for its consideration, meaning the team could face further sanction.

Maintaining Ferrari’s innocence, team principal Stefano Domenicali stated: “As for the stewards’ decision, given after the race, in the interests of the sport, we have decided not to go through a procedure of appealing against it, confident that the World Council will know how to evaluate the overall facts correctly.”

For his part, Massa suggested he and not the team had made the decision to surrender the lead to Alonso: “In my opinion this was not a case of team orders: my engineer kept me constantly informed on what was going on behind me, especially when I was struggling a bit on the hard tyres: so I decided to do the best thing for the team, and a one-two finish is the best possible result, isn’t it?”

 

[OzExorcist]

I'm quite the opposite: I gained a hell of a lot of respect back for Massa after last night - he didn't like it but he did his job.

This rule is a stupid one anyway. If F1 isn't supposed to be a team sport then why on earth does each team field two cars? The truth is this rule is a hangover from the early noughties, a time when the sport was allegedly being killed by the Schumacher-led Ferrari juggernaut and the rulebook was being rewritten constantly to negate any advantages he and Ferrari might come up with. Having a teammate who'd move over for him was just one of those advantages.

Listen to David Coulthard's comments during the race last night: team orders were a normal part of racing when he was at McLaren. And Martin Brundle's comment that, all things considered, he would've given the same order is telling as well.

 

[Egon Towst]

One can argue that the rule isn`t an especially good one, and there may be some truth in that. Even so, if you take part in a sport you must play by the rules as given. It`s never acceptable to cheat because you don`t like the rules, and Ferrari blatantly did exactly that without even bothering to make a plausible effort to conceal what they were doing.

You note that former drivers DC and MB had some sympathy in their TV reports, but you should also recall that former Team Manager Eddie Jordan was beside himself with rage at the incident and calling for both cars to be disqualified. Interpretation of the rule book is more a matter for managers than for drivers, I suggest, and therefore his opinion carries weight.

 

[SirFoldaLot]

I think F1 should be every man for himself, may the best driver win, etc. But I'm not sure it's ever been like that.

There have always been No1 and No2 drivers in teams - and No2s have always had to step aside/make way for No1s.

When it's this blatant it causes anger, but it goes on all the time.

 

[OzExorcist]

You note that former drivers DC and MB had some sympathy in their TV reports, but you should also recall that former Team Manager Eddie Jordan was beside himself with rage at the incident and calling for both cars to be disqualified. Interpretation of the rule book is more a matter for managers than for drivers, I suggest, and therefore his opinion carries weight.

*shrugs*

Yes, I noticed that. But remember that as an F1 team manager Eddie Jordan was never in a position to make this kind of call in the first place - team orders don't mean a great deal when you're running at the back of the field. Plus it's his job to get cranky about things these days.

DC, on the other hand, has been on the receiving end of such an order on a few occasions when he was running at the front of a grand prix and Martin Brundle was talking in the context of the current rules which is a pretty powerful statement.

The other thing that interests me about this is that the FIA can't really prove that Ferrari ordered Massa to move over and they have to know it. Of course we all know Ferrari gave the order, but knowing and proving are two very different things. At this stage nobody can prove that Massa didn't make the decision to move aside on his own, which means the WMSC investigation should be interesting...

 

[Pothole]

And Martin Brundle's comment that, all things considered, he would've given the same order is telling as well.

So would I if I had a $10k bet on Alonso, the bookies must be crying in their beer. If a trainer did the same thing in a horse race, he would be warned off and the jockey would lose his license. And you must admit, Massa looks real happy in that podium pic.

 

[robert_wrath]

It's about time the team Ferrari posts a 1st and 2nd player victory this season in germany. This puts a serious dent in team Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes and Red Bull Renault in the points standing for the cup.

 

[Egon Towst]

If Ferrari feel the need to do this, I don`t know why the heck they can`t exercise some subtlety, instead of annoying fans and officials alike with their clumsy race-fixing.

Back when I was a kid, I recall Andretti and Peterson driving for Lotus. Peterson followed Andretti to the line several times and there was much speculation that he was quicker and could have passed, but was under orders not to do so. To this day, nobody knows for sure, because drivers and team both behaved impeccably and discouraged any discussion about their tactics.

 

[Pothole]

I recall Gilles Villenueve being overtaken by his team mate after being told not to do so. Guess the drivers today care more about their paycheck than the size of their testicles.

 

[OzExorcist]

So would I if I had a $10k bet on Alonso, the bookies must be crying in their beer. If a trainer did the same thing in a horse race, he would be warned off and the jockey would lose his license.

That's very true. But horse racing isn't a team sport, it never has been and the races are self-contained in that the major focus is the prize money on the line for that one race, not a cumulative championship points score like F1 has.

As for why Ferrari couldn't exercise some subtlety about it... I dunno. I sincerely doubt the way it happened was what Stefano Domenicali had in mind when he gave the order but Massa and Rob Smedley were obviously trying to make a point: both of them seemed wicked pissed about the situation.

 

[AtiFCOD]

I recall Gilles Villenueve being overtaken by his team mate after being told not to do so. Guess the drivers today care more about their paycheck than the size of their testicles.

Yeah they are paid by the team so they have to obey the team if necessary. Massa has no chance for winning the championship so he had to do what he did.

 

[JupeZ]

Shame Räikkönen isn't driving this season - still got couple good drivers to root for... and one of them isn't Schumacher (he used to be enemy #1 to Häkkinen <3)

 

[AtiFCOD]

Shame Räikkönen isn't driving this season - still got couple good drivers to root for... and one of them isn't Schumacher (he used to be enemy #1 to Häkkinen <3)

I also liked Kimi. He was extremely fast, he deserved winning a championship.

 

[OzExorcist]

Saw an interesting interview with David Coulthard yesterday on the team orders issue - he rightly points out that if the current situation continues it won't do anything to stamp out team orders, it'll just ensure that it continues to happen behind closed doors and in coded transmissions.

Which is interesting because after last night's result, team orders almost certainly have to start coming into play for McLaren and Red Bull don't they?

 

[Pothole]

you lost me Oz, Hamilton taught the others how to drive and Button didn't finish thanks to that dumb ass rookie from RB.

 

[ChuckyEgg]

Each time I watch a race now, I just pray that Alonso comes a cropper. Totally peed me off, that team orders thing.

If RBR use team orders I think Webber would just quit (actually, he'd ignore it), because for some reason they seem to favour that risk taking nutter Vettel. If I were Button yesterday, I'd want a piece of Vettel for what he did.

Being aggressive and a risk taker is fine, as long as you can turn it into a win. All Vettel seems to do is wipe out one or two of his comptitors, and blow a load of potential points for himself.

I'd like to see Webber team up with a good team player and stick with a good car. And put Vettel with Alonso... both lack the same team skills. Great potential as race winners, just seem to posses the screw up gene.

I am hoping Webber takes the championship this year, even though I am a McLaren fan. Ideal scenario; Webber Driver's, McLaren Constructor's.

 

[AtiFCOD]

Each time I watch a race now, I just pray that Alonso comes a cropper. Totally peed me off, that team orders thing.

If RBR use team orders I think Webber would just quit (actually, he'd ignore it), because for some reason they seem to favour that risk taking nutter Vettel. If I were Button yesterday, I'd want a piece of Vettel for what he did.

Being aggressive and a risk taker is fine, as long as you can turn it into a win. All Vettel seems to do is wipe out one or two of his comptitors, and blow a load of potential points for himself.

I'd like to see Webber team up with a good team player and stick with a good car. And put Vettel with Alonso... both lack the same team skills. Great potential as race winners, just seem to posses the screw up gene.

I am hoping Webber takes the championship this year, even though I am a McLaren fan. Ideal scenario; Webber Driver's, McLaren Constructor's.

Yeah, Alonso is getting more and more disappointing. He makes mistakes what he didn't make in the last seasons.
Ferrari became a good car, but this team tactically very weak.

I think this year Hamilton drives the best. He's still very agressive and he makes few mistakes. He collected important points at the beginning of this season when McLaren was weak and now with stronger car he is able to defeat the Red Bull's drivers. Webber isn't amongst the top drivers and Vettel is too bull headed.

 

[ChuckyEgg]

Yeah, Alonso is getting more and more disappointing. He makes mistakes what he didn't make in the last seasons.
Ferrari became a good car, but this team tactically very weak.

I think this year Hamilton drives the best. He's still very agressive and he makes few mistakes. He collected important points at the beginning of this season when McLaren was weak and now with stronger car he is able to defeat the Red Bull's drivers. Webber isn't amongst the top drivers and Vettel is too bull headed.

Yep, totally agree, but I would still like to see Webber win. Hamilton can win next year

 

[robert_wrath]

Congrats to Lewis Hamilton for a well deserved victory at Belgium this past weekend. He needs to keep it up because Mark Webber is right on his heels just 3 points behind him on the season's standing.

 

[OzExorcist]

you lost me Oz, Hamilton taught the others how to drive and Button didn't finish thanks to that dumb ass rookie from RB.

I mean Hamilton and Webber are getting far enough ahead of Button and Vettel in the points that surely their teams have to start considering favouring them for the driver's championship.

As for Chucky and the team orders thing... OMG people seriously need to get over this. Team orders have been a part of Formula 1 for as long as the sport has been in existence. Which stands to reason because last I checked it is and always has been a team sport.

It's like I've said before: the only reason we've even got the no team orders rule at the moment is because at the time it was introduced the sport was going through a period of "OMG Schumacher is the cancer that is killing F1" hysteria. There was a lot of bad press over the austria 2002 incident and instead of the FIA telling the public to get over themselves, they wet their pants and put an idiotic rule in place.

What David Coulthard said in interviews over the Belgian Grand Prix weekend is 100% accurate: the fact that there's a rule against team orders has never done anything to eliminate them and it never will. All it does is push the decisions behind closed doors and into coded transmissions so the insiders all know it's still going on but the public gets to keep their blessed ignorance.

Y'all are welcome to your ignorance if that's what you want. Personally, I'd just prefer the teams be up front about it.

 

[ChuckyEgg]

Thoroughly enjoyable last race, even though it was won by Alonso (McLaren fan me). He did well, and deserved the win, and now made for a very interesting last 5 races for the driver's championship.

Funny, they said at the start it would be one of the most boring seasons ever, oh so wrong... One of the best I have seen in years.

Even though a McLaren fan, I am hoping that Webber keeps is together and can at least get on the podium for the remaining races, and Vettel scores high, thus keeping Alonso and Ferrari at bay for the driver's and constructor's.

If both McLaren boys can score high for the rest of the season, it would be nice to see them get the constructor's, but I won't cry if RBR get it, just as long as it stays out of Ferrari's hands.... that coming from an Italian, well, half Italian

 

[OzExorcist]

I thought it was a very interesting race - fascinating to watch Vettel run all but one lap on the soft tyres, for example and I can only wonder what the stewards were thinking not penalising Hulkenberg after he cut the chicane right in front of Webber for the third time. Plus I'm a lifetime Scuderia fan so seeing them win at Monza is always great. You'd think Alonso would look happier about it afterwards though...

Interesting news this week too: Lotus are ending their engine deal with Cosworth at the end of the season and Nick Heidfeld is taking De La Rosa's seat at Sauber for the rest of the season.

Also LOL @ the WMSC pointing out that the no team orders rule is lousy one that is basically unenforceable

 

[robert_wrath]

Are you guys ready for Singapore? Any guesses as to who'll take it this weekend?

 

[OzExorcist]

Rain would make for an interesting race. The Red Bulls look strong but I wouldn't be game to make any predictions.