Is the card shuffling in online poker truly random?

[SirYivx]

I was playing in a freeroll tournament once and A K went against Q Q. The flop,turn, and river came in this sequence A K 6 J 10. In the same tournament A K went up against Q Q again. The flop, turn, and river came A K 5 J 10. random or not? HMM....

Like others on here have been saying, and I have seen it myself, that you are noticing a pattern in the RNG. For example, I was just in a tournament where two times the flop came J 5 7. In both occasions, the runouts were low cards that made four to a straight, for example: turn 6, river 8.

Now, will these runouts be the same on every J 5 7 board? That's what you need to look for. My whole outlook on the RNG is that, preflop, it is impossible to know what hand will end up the winner. We can know pot odds and what hand should win X% of the time, but there are MANY donks out there, especially in freerolls, that will shove with any 2 cards and get lucky no matter how much of a dog they are. Over time, your 80/20s and 60/40s will hold up in all ins. However, if people have also started noticing patterns like you and I, it is possible that, on a certain board, a player(or computer) can know which cards are coming next. The real question is, like I asked above, are the runouts always the same on a given flop? I highly doubt this, but I haven't put enough time or effort into it to make a conclusion, but I start to wonder when I see a certain flop, and can guess the winner of the hand based off of it. Would love to see someone go through millions of hands and data to find a conclusion.

Just thought I'd put my two cents in.

 

[Queenlimp]

Totally Truthful!


Before "black Friday," I read an article describing how to win on pokerstars in tourney play.
There was 3-4 critical stats. applicable to a table that would absolutely guarantee the win of any given hand to a 80% likelihood based on comparative stats of the players involved.
I won several small stake tourneys experimenting with the method.
I caught on late and did not have much opportunity to benefit from the strategy.
Are any people out there familiar with this?

 

[GoSplat678]

shuffle up n deal

card shuffling random? I doubt it seems like it comes in a fairly distinct pattern on some sites a little less on others always follow your gut if it feels fixed it probably is. Some sites base on operations smart poker play. play the button you'll win 70% of the time etc. others feel like seats go hot and cold. Like for example.. you saw the hand you just folded (say you were on the button) was 7/2 and that would of hit a fh. then the next turn youll have like a draw that you wont hit then turn 3 you'll hit again. I see it pretty commonly when I play

 

[fingers182005]

I have mixed feelings on this situation. Sometimes it feels like a complete rig but I honestly see the main problem on the losses with strong hands is the way you played it and your style! I can't be mad losing with aa because i played such a huge range all the time!

 

[JeetsMcskeets89]

.

yeah I always wondered myself it was truly random cause sometimes I think its too random

 

[reggzz]

Yes, sometimes there are really thoughts about juggling hands in online poker.

 

[bzvz222]

If one does not keep a track of his hands and turnouts regarding odds, everything he has is his gut feeling he us getting robbed by a rigged site. I used to be convinced that PS allways gives me bad beats if I kept depositing. If a period went by without me depositing (but with some money left on the account) it seemed to me that then they gave me good hands. Of course, it was probably all in my imagination.

 

[ironduke11]

really a trigger point for me givent he amount of times ive been 95% on the flop and 0% on the river

 

[maezma]

Very interesting article.

 

[pretorijan]

Just to add something.Right now I am playing at ACR,but observing Pokerstars.Week by week,stars droping by number of players.From 200000,drops to 120000.I think that there is more stuff into it,not just about cards but in the game itself.Think about for a minute.

 

[slicheri93]

They can say it's random but we would never know for sure
If you don't trust online then don't play online

You can never know if it's random or not unless you can see the program that they use. that they will probably not show us ever

 

[xpvictor1]

Maybee it is not exactly random??

Jason M. Rubin (software engineer)“If you go to an online poker site, for example, and you know the algorithm and seed, you can write a program that will predict the cards that are going to be dealt.”


Interesting??


I worked as a computer analyst and programmer for many years. I was always told that there is no machine or software that is truly a random number generator.

 

[James_Harrison]

The fact that this is a newer poker room and that they are the only room to do this got me interested right away.

Couldn't they just change the code though after it was released ? In a kind of a doomswitch fashion ?

Not trying to think negatively, but if we were to even suspect that a site would rig it in the first place, its not much different, but sneaky all the same.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Just to add something.Right now I am playing at ACR,but observing Pokerstars.Week by week,stars droping by number of players.From 200000,drops to 120000.I think that there is more stuff into it,not just about cards but in the game itself.Think about for a minute.

Think about what?

 

[motherfunky]

I think that poker sites simply do not make sense to deceive their customers, moreover, they are primarily interested in the honest game since they get their percentage, regardless of whether you won or lost !!!

Do you remember when Absolute Poker got rumbled?

 

[Cajin007]

No, the shuffling in online poker is not truly random. It is possible to feed an RNG a duplicate seed, that when fed to the shuffle algorithm can reproduce a specific deck. Given enough computing space, one could engineer a program that would favor certain types of players, so as to keep them interested in playing more. Carefully crafting this algorithm so that it only triggers at random intervals would make it extremely hard, but not impossible to detect.
( only massive amounts of collected data from all involved over an extended time would only hint at the possibility )

 

[Kaski54]

That's what all poker sites must do!
I have no answer to my question for years...

- In live poker game the dealer shuffles cards and the sequence of the cards remains in the same order after shuffling process is over, until next shuffling process starts.

BUT

- What happens in online poker shuffling process?
a) The shuffling process is over at start of the hand and cards are located in some sequence for flop-turn-river?
or
b) The shuffling process continues for turn and river cards?

In both cases A) or B) more questions rise up.

Its not clear as far as I know.
Pokerstars has a fine RNG but they are not saying if the shuffle proces takes place once per hand.
In my opinion they are using RNG each time there is a need for card.
So in fact there is no such process like setting cards in order at the beginning.
They are picking a number between 1 and 52, avoiding already used, each time they need a card.

 

[finaltable1]

Its not clear as far as I know.
Pokerstars has a fine RNG but they are not saying if the shuffle proces takes place once per hand.
In my opinion they are using RNG each time there is a need for card.
So in fact there is no such process like setting cards in order at the beginning.
They are picking a number between 1 and 52, avoiding already used, each time they need a card.

What is your source of this information? Is it logical sequence of thoughts or something real?
We have a rigged megathread here at forum. All posts and complains about rigged poker sites are going there, so I guess this one will go there too.
Why?
Let's use logic, like you did before typing your message.
Let's close our eyes on all money laundring through poker sites.
Let's close our eyes on all hacking\carding side of poker sites.
Let's focus on the mechanics of the poker site.
ANy... let's choose your favorite poker site for example.

There is rake. Let's say it's 10% for tournaments.. you're payiing 10+1 to play 10K grt tournament... it means that at 11th day poker site will swallow minimum 10K, just with this single tournament.

What poker site does? Poker site purchased PC servers and designed software.

What is the difference for PC server when it hosts a freeroll for 1000 players VS a $10+1 tournament with 10K grtd prize pool for 1000 players?

There is no difference for PC server, in both cases it will consume X kW of energy and Y mB of traffic.

SO instead of just paying some monthly subscription to play at some level, players are paying rake and poker site swallows all money by the end of the month. So new deposits are needed.

What if the number of new deposits is too large?
What if the controling organisation(which is located at some ofshore island LOL) provides license for poker site just once per year, and checks the software also once per year.
What if poker site has auto-update feature for the software and is able to upload new versions of poker client to users PC?

Now 1+1 = ?

Is there a chance that between security checks of gambling comission, when there is too much money deposited in the poker system and casino owners want more profit, can they upload a new version of the software, like an update, and with this update some of the players who know what buttnos to press will have a influence on the RNG? 3 weeks later another update of the software and things will be back to normal...

Can this logical sequence be true just like your conclusion (that RNG is used each time when card is needed)
Can this be an explanation to the BS advertisement "Why same poker pros are often at the final tables"
You know, at real life big tournaments you're signing a contract and your cards are filmed with cameras under the table... YOU HAVE TO AGREE TO THIS BS OR YOU WON'T PARTICIPATE IN THE TOURNEY. ANy proof that some players are not receiving additional info somehow? You know, some tourneys have decks of cards with RFID chips inside plastic cards... no need for cameras, and all sequences are clear to those who have RFID receiver with software. Can this information be used to trick some fools?

SO in general, i've spent 11 years playing online poker so far. And still playing. I've won some money... and still wining even tho i start playing at any poker site with a freeroll, not with a deposit.I've played and still playing live poker at clubs and with friends. My conclusion is that online poker is a slot machine, fixed to exctract money from fools pockets. You can win big money only by multitabling and playing 50+ hours per week. In most of the cases rake that you're generating for the casino and your profit are equal. Regulars and people with influence are wining much more often and have much less bad beats than usual players.

Want to know something funny about RNG?
Gather a really huge database of hands for your favorite poker site.
Ask all of your friends and maybe forum members to send you their hand histories.
Get like 10 millions of hands or more if possible.
Write or ask someone to write a script.
Script must browse through flop-turn-river cards and compare.
DO the comparison with this script through 10 million of hands.
If it's not rigged, then all cards in the deck will hit the board approximatively same number of times.

Example:
How many sixes have been in the community cards VS how many aces.
You will see the difference.

I had a PokerElephant software, the same as HM2, but it was free for me, many years ago. I was hiring programmers and designers to create websites for me back there... I've asked one of my programmers to export PostgreSQL database of hands and to do the comparison. I was shocked... DO it for yourself and see it with your eyes.

RNG -BShmhRNG... poker players at poker sites are in the middle of Oceans Eleven movie, and they're not part of the crew. Even regs are not, regs are the backstage workers...

 

[Kaski54]

What is your source of this information? Is it logical sequence of thoughts or something real?
We have a rigged megathread here at forum. All posts and complains about rigged poker sites are going there, so I guess this one will go there too.
Why?
Let's use logic, like you did before typing your message.
Let's close our eyes on all money laundring through poker sites.
Let's close our eyes on all hacking\carding side of poker sites.
Let's focus on the mechanics of the poker site.
ANy... let's choose your favorite poker site for example.

Yeaaaa.
It is long and interesting post... but I have missed Your point?
I have said in the beginning it is my opinion only.
I have asked a question here on cards chats several days ago how the shuffle goes on Pokerstars and there was no clear answer to this: once or RNG each time…
As I see it, it is easier and more save for poker room to use RNG each time.
On another hand what is a difference for professional poker player?
I can’t see any difference since they do not know what card will come next right?
Thank You very much for Your long answer.
It confirms that poker game is heavily based on luck short term.
You are right that a professional poker player comes to the final table many times but… not the same ones. Many of them are busted at the very early stage. There is also a bunch of newbies at the higher level because they have been lucky.


Best regards,
Darek K.

 

[Transcendence]

I say this because I am esoterica, each with its own RNG.

 

[Kaski54]

I say this because I am esoterica, each with its own RNG.

Thank You!!!

 

[Transcendence]

If man creates for himself that is playing, then the responsibility for the loss or gain rests on it, and no longer on someone.You can't blame anyone if you play by yourself! And if the person plays by the RNG the whole responsibility is on RNG, but in this case, to praise and to blame it needs RNG. Not yourself. Let me give you an example ," you won the tournament ... it turns out you did not win, and RNG."Therefore, all glory and merit should be awarded to the RNG, not to man!

 

[Tbone461]

If you play online poker then you probably have doubts about weather or not the shuffle is truly random. In my experience I believe it is as random as they can make it. This would be a great question for the 888 or ACR thread .

 

[recerveau]

Until I see it with my own eyes, I will always doubt!

 

[8bod8]

Are the cards dealt from the those remaining in a 52 card pack as it would be in a home game.
If not then poker maths becomes irrelevant to a large extent. You can't say so many cards have been dealt, therefore this number of cards remain to make a hand. It has become a 52 card new pack.
Does the RNG take out those made available to the table pre-flop and only random generate those remaining cards for future streets?

hi,
sorry for the late 'reply'.
It's very very safe to asume all sites start a hand with 52 cards.
As the hand progresses cards are 'removed', only to make the deck complete again after the hand is finished.
(if not: I would fold my 92o and the flop shows my 92, this would get notices by many players)