Is the card shuffling in online poker truly random?

[puzzlefish]

I always thought they used cosmic background radiation to generate a random pattern that they use to sort a deck (like the very popular online tool that generates numbers). Either that or use a combination of the player's mouse movements or something. I never doubted the RNG on popular websites, and I have close to a million hands logged that verify they are pretty much perfectly random.

You can have a random distribution of cards with a rigged result. The trick is to rig who wins with the randomly distributed cards.

 

[an9312]

i dont want to think about this....

 

[FerC182]

I did not doubt it but some hands are very strange, that's a yes. I've heard a lot about this scrambling program, everyone always says it's reliable and such, but when the villain has only a 2% chance on the river and hits his card, everyone thinks it's impossible and they start to distrust kkkkkkkkkkkkk​

 

[Rusel2302]

it was the case,or simply opponent is not really adequate

 

[sharipov8090]

I do not see any reason to doubt why then play online?

 

[Bozovicdj]

Can't wait to see proof that this is actually CoinPoker's RNG and not an alternate RNG. I think RNG dealing of cards is random, but dealing of outcomes is not (i.e. selection of the order of winning players is pre-determined). This is probably the simplest rig that is also sufficiently concealed that it will not be detected easily. In essence if players can figure out pre-flop who wins versus who for the upcoming board, then they have the advantage for betting purposes.

Your opinion is based on what you see (your cards, opponents cards and the board). But what you don't see is everyone else's hands.
Statistically, if everyone would go all in pre flop, then every seat will win 11.11% of the time over a huge amount of hands (for a 9 handed table).

There is absolutely no logical reason for poker site to rig the tables so that seat 5 wins more often, or that the seat 3 loses more often...

Your thinking irrationally and not considering the math and the possibility of winning/losing with worse/better holdings pre-flop!

 

[Bozovicdj]

The code for any poker site’s RNG has remained top secret, leading many to wonder whether the cards are really dealt in a random fashion. CoinPoker, a cryptocurrency-based online poker site, is releasing the source code for the random number generator so you can see for yourself. Have you ever doubted the RNG on any online poker site?

Is Online Poker Really Random? Crypto Site Opens Source Code, Offers Reward to Test Shuffling RNG

I believe we would need a programmer to speak out about this.
With little knowledge I have in programming, it is impossible to create a perfect software that will deal cards randomly.
Behind every single card, every board there is an algorithm that has a predetermined values of 1s and 0s which then produce what you see as cards. For example, when you see the particular #number of the hand you are currently playing, its outcome (considering who will get what card and what the board will be) is already determined.

For further reference, I suggest everyone to watch the movie "The Imitation Game" which talks about cracking a WWII German code using a computer that had one job to try out compatible algorithms in order to figure out what the code is saying.

With the exact same principle, one should be able to crack every online RNG software but would probably take huge funds and extreme amounts of time.

 

[puzzlefish]

Your opinion is based on what you see (your cards, opponents cards and the board). But what you don't see is everyone else's hands.
Statistically, if everyone would go all in pre flop, then every seat will win 11.11% of the time over a huge amount of hands (for a 9 handed table).

There is absolutely no logical reason for poker site to rig the tables so that seat 5 wins more often, or that the seat 3 loses more often...

Your thinking irrationally and not considering the math and the possibility of winning/losing with worse/better holdings pre-flop!

Maybe I misread your posts, but are you not contradicting yourself with your post here and then the one immediately after?

I am not claiming a particular seat wins more than another. I am saying that there is a predictable sequence as to when a particular seat wins and when it loses. Do you understand? It has nothing to do with math. It all works out in the end, but if a player is able to predict when they win and when they will lose, the action can be modified so that losses are smaller and wins are bigger.

 

[sibird]

The code for any poker site’s RNG has remained top secret, leading many to wonder whether the cards are really dealt in a random fashion. CoinPoker, a cryptocurrency-based online poker site, is releasing the source code for the random number generator so you can see for yourself. Have you ever doubted the RNG on any online poker site? QUOTE]


I think, we have two questions that might answer the uncertainties about the performance of the random generators.
One, if RNG is truly random then do sites has something to gain or loss?
Two, if RNG is malfunctioning or rigged do sites get any advantage or disadvantage?

A poker room stays in business If they have enough players active to their sites. They earn rake from the players. I saw sites like, 888 poker and pokerstars do have thousands of players active all the time, even in off-peck hours. They have everything to lose if their RNG is not working properly. In fact they constantly keep an eye on RNG so that everything runs smoothly. It is their bread and butter.

I can't say much about small sites who don't have enough activity and are struggling to run their operating expenses. These sites , when they start, should have enough financial backing to deal with initial expenses. They need to invest continuously sufficient money to run and gain confidence of players so that they may earn later.

I think, rigging RNG for gains is one time short business.

 

[kdawg71]

I was playing in a freeroll tournament once and A K went against Q Q. The flop,turn, and river came in this sequence A K 6 J 10. In the same tournament A K went up against Q Q again. The flop, turn, and river came A K 5 J 10. random or not? HMM....

 

[rfbh54]

It is difficult to say by chance or not I doubt a bit about honesty. Stars often happen that I lose on the last card with strong combination, as if it were not by chance.

 

[Bozovicdj]

Maybe I misread your posts, but are you not contradicting yourself with your post here and then the one immediately after?

I am not claiming a particular seat wins more than another. I am saying that there is a predictable sequence as to when a particular seat wins and when it loses. Do you understand? It has nothing to do with math. It all works out in the end, but if a player is able to predict when they win and when they will lose, the action can be modified so that losses are smaller and wins are bigger.

That's the point. It is not about a predictable sequence of seats that are winning, it is just about a predictable sequence of cards. If it is a tournament, and someone is busted, the next predetermined hand will be played even if the open seat would be the supposed winner.
Also, because there are so many tables and so much action, it is near impossible to know what is the exact hand that will be played once the current one is finished. Therefore, predictable really has a different meaning here, and it is only predictable in theory but can hardly be realized!

 

[Poker Orifice]

I am not claiming a particular seat wins more than another. I am saying that there is a predictable sequence as to when a particular seat wins and when it loses. Do you understand? It has nothing to do with math. It all works out in the end, but if a player is able to predict when they win and when they will lose, the action can be modified so that losses are smaller and wins are bigger.

So you must be winning lots!

 

[Poker Orifice]

I believe we would need a programmer to speak out about this.

There's a number of excellent posts by a former regular member on Cardschat dmorris (or maybe dmorris68 ?). Some very informative stuff, de-bunking a bunch of the rigged-theorists (a.k.a. bad players seeking to stay in denial about their lack of skill & poker knowledge).
Most of those posts are in the Rigged thread (I forget the name of it). But, if you're interested, maybe try searching his older posts circa 2010-2011 time frame.

 

[Bozovicdj]

There's a number of excellent posts by a former regular member on Cardschat dmorris (or maybe dmorris68 ?). Some very informative stuff, de-bunking a bunch of the rigged-theorists (a.k.a. bad players seeking to stay in denial about their lack of skill & poker knowledge).
Most of those posts are in the Rigged thread (I forget the name of it). But, if you're interested, maybe try searching his older posts circa 2010-2011 time frame.

I bet there is, and I also bet that this thread will soon be transferred to the "rigged" thread soon enough... However, it is such a vast number of posts, that it would be painful to search through them thoroughly..

 

[Cloxy]

Firstly, there is no true generator of random numbers. There are only pseudo generators that can give you a sequence of numbers that will be repeated after a really long time. It means that it all can be predicted. (only in theory)

Secondly, I'm a software developer and I just want to say that it is an empty discussion until we see the program module that is responsible for shuffling or distribution of cards.

Thirdly, There are audits (like verification of code, validation of development and testing processes) for these kinds of software because it is a commercial type of software and requires your private information that must be confidential. I don't think that such program modules are checked and exist some standards that declare how we should develop the poker rooms.

Fourth, there are a lot of external programs that collect statistic, remember the player's hands and if the processing of the deck was unfair it would be noticed pretty quickly. But from another side, to implement a "level of lucky" and make concrete player is luckier than another is really easy. I think truth in the middle )))

 

[pepsilv]

Many things are posible, if you really want to know the indepth of how it happens of shuffling the cards, you must study it everyday and then your answer will be shown, its like everything we study in life. To know something we got to study every bit of it and in depth until it is mastered, like Math,English,many other subjects. Everything has a fundamental and everything has a conclusion.

 

[Myone]

I have always doubted my self that their system not only is but random but is also skew to profit them, there is a good reason why America banned them back in the they and hound them for payment under the allegation that it was a ponzi scheme.
I only play for fun now but I don't think I'll ever play for millions one day

 

[JeetsMcskeets89]

.

Honestly a lot of times I feel its a bit too random sadly to say

 

[Poker_Mike]

Being a liberal arts student we deal with statistical packages (SPSS) in research and require a RNG (random number generator) to generate pure random numbers on occasion, most random numbers used in computer programs are pseudo-random, which means they are generated in a predictable fashion using a mathematical formula, algorithms

It is difficult to get a computer to do something by chance. A computer follows its instructions blindly and is therefore completely predictable.

This is actually usually just fine. However to be 100% non-predictable some sort of base needs to be established that can not be duplicated or predicted.
The one we used was from the atomic clock and 10,000th of a second.. so in simple terms when i want a random number i click and at that 10,000th of a second, the computer uses that point as the base and starts it calculation.. no one could never hit that exact time to predict the outcome

Some other RNGs use white noise, or others the decay of radioactive material. It's all a fascinating area, specially valuable to the military & intelligence agencies for making secret unbreakable codes.

I looked into PokerStars RNG and spoke to their games integrity people, they very happy help and explain things... I have complete faith it's an honest and random system used to shuffle & deal them devil cards

Krista, this is a great introduction to RNG's!

This really brings up the point of...what variables or assumptions the algorithm is using.

What other inputs does an RNG use?

Also, what are we calling random? As you state.....an unpredictable outcome. But some players expect an RNG to look more like live play.....which also has bad beat and noticeable patterns in the run of cards.

Great topic.

 

[Inequitas]

Great Question and some great answers...

My first computer was a ZX Spectrum and while learning some basic back in those days I had discovered that a true Random Number Generator was impossible to create and though you could create a reasonable example of random numbers because of the math it could not be truly random...

So how does each platform differ in programming of their "RNG's"?

Have you noticed through game play that each platform differs slightly?

Having that in mind wouldn't it be a disadvantage getting in the zone on one platform and then moving on to another Thinking you'll have similar results...

I can tell after so many rounds where a table is good for "Flushes", "Straights", "Low Card Pairs" or "High Card Pairs" and then settle in to get in the Zone but each time you're moved from one table to another it takes time to get the feel for the table, Has any one else noticed this?

The Random Number Generators in each platform and game or table is pumping out differing combinations but these combinations do produce patterns of distribution which some Players are attune too and some are not...

What does this say about life in general? I mean is any thing truly random? Watching a few documentaries on Entropy would suggest "that which is ordered becomes disordered over time" but paradoxically we find our selves in a Universe that becomes more ordered over time lol I mean by weight or density is one simple example...

Playing Cards with a RNG which isn't truly producing random numbers has some advantages, but its likely it would be the Platforms that would take the advantage on a system they control... lol keep on raking and we'll keep play lol

 

[kkonicke]

I've personally always been a bit skeptical that the cards truly are random. That said, any proof that cards weren't random would devastate whatever site was caught...so probably in their best interest to be random and keep taking their rake.

 

[John bruce]

All of it pointless if there only tracking your whole cards. That leaves everything else up for grabs. Look I like playing online even if I think is it's rig. That the real value I get. I don't deposit money on these sites because I'm skeptical. Doesn't mean I'm not entertained. I go play local live cards and I did great. Does it mean I'm a pro no. Just better at reading tells I guess.

 

[Syltan]

I do not think that blind trust poker rooms at least unwise. In our time, everyone wants to cheat and make money on you.

 

[magik9118]

I would love To know the truth. .!maybe one day they tell us ...!