'Black Friday' and associated fallout megathread

[BelgoSuisse]

I can't wait to vote these bums out in 2012. Obama and his cronies are just doing this to try to collect more tax money. Any successful business is a target for them, and they want to dip into all of our pockets. No interest in catchin Osama Bin Laden but if you're playing poker you're associating with criminals.. Give me a break !

I hope you realize the alternative would probably be significantly worse than what you have now...

 

[xdeucesx]

I hope you realize the alternative would probably be significantly worse than what you have now...

completely false

i agree with you on alot of stuff belgo, but the Obama Admin has done literally nothing right the entire time he has been in office. I'm not going to start a political battle itt, just saying there's lot of better options out there, they dont have to be just democrat or republican

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Soooo...you didn't play on ftp or ps?

Indeed I did. I am waiting to cash out my roll on both sites. It's not all that much money, but it is 2 or three payments on my mortgage principal and I would like to have it in my bank as soon as I can.

If the two big sites can't be trusted to return the money they hold for US citizens what country's citizens CAN trust them.

 

[Wes747]

Lol @ anyone trying to say one politician is better than another. They're all a joke.

 

[the Styb]

completely false

i agree with you on alot of stuff belgo, but the Obama Admin has done literally nothing right the entire time he has been in office. I'm not going to start a political battle itt, just saying there's lot of better options out there, they dont have to be just democrat or republican

Except this is all Republican driven. Yes, Barry is the one with his ass on the purple cushions in the Oval Office, but he's not the one pushing this. (Though I agree he's the one ignoring it, but he's getting awfully good at ignoring things these days!)

HR 4411, the original standalone gambling bill introduced by James Leach R-IA2, saw 76 of the 93 no votes come from Democrats. Once past the House, the Bill sat around gathering dust as the Senate largely ignored it until it was automatically cleared from the books by the ending of the senate session.

So a few years later, the Republicans paper-clipped a revised version, (minus the part about outlawing internet gaming altogether,) onto the SAFE Port Act as a rider at the last minute. No discussion. No debate. Just ramrod it through hidden behind port security measures. Net result: 409 yes votes, 2 no votes and 21 lazy congressmen who didn't bother to show up to work that day. Then, after 15 Senate votes, (mostly due to quibbling over security amendments and not one discussion of UIGEA,) the Act passed the Senate, 98-0, 2 not voting.

What about a line-item veto? Sorry kids. Even though many states have that ability, the Supreme Court declared that "unconstitutional" under the Clinton Administration. But if you want to use patriotism and security as a bright and shining light to blind the public from your sneaky attempts to force others to obey your moral code, well, that's just fine and dandy!


God Bless America!!


The UIGEA Board by M Styborski, on Flickr

 

[the Styb]

Urgent news from the PPA!!!

We have good news to report! Yesterday, the Department of Justice (DoJ) responded to the massive political and grassroots pressure generated by members of the Poker Players Alliance (PPA) and is allowing U.S. players to access their funds from PokerStars.com and FullTiltPoker.com in the near future.

Yeah. It was us. Not the fact that the seizure breaks international trade agreements. Not the pressure from other nations whose citizens accounts have been frozen by those illegal seizures. Feh.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

The one good thing coming out of the seizure: Issues like this bring Dorkus out of hiding.

love you too sweetykins <3

e: AP/UB are now completely screwed seeing as I'd guess 3/4 of their playerbase was american. So there is likely to be another good thing coming out of this situation.

 

[Debi]

Good article by Hunter Bick:

http://www.dragthebar.com/poker-blogs/author/hunter-bick/#jump-post-1263

 

[Logan2]

Get my rakeback today in Fulltilt, maybe transfers are working now.

 

[the Styb]

Good article by Hunter Bick:

http://www.dragthebar.com/poker-blogs/author/hunter-bick/#jump-post-1263

Damn! He came so close…

While the UIGEA has "been around" for about five years, it has only been legally enforceable for the last 10 months. To start, the current UIGEA was a "proposal" amendment tacked onto the SAFE Port Act in September 2006 and signed into law the following October. The proposal stipulated that the Federal Reserve and Treasury Department draft legislation for the UIGEA. That's all. They had 270 days to do so and it actually took about a year. From October 2007 to October 2008 the UIGEA was "tabled for discussion" as a "Notice of Proposed Rulemaking" and over 400 banks, advocacy groups, politicians, gambling entities, payment processors and consumers voiced dissent over it to the deaf ears of Washington.

In November of 2008, the "NPRM" was enacted as a "Final Rule", (ie, no more discussion or language tinkering,) and signed into law, and during the Bush Administration's 11th hour "midnight drop" it went into effect on January 19th, 2009, Bush's last day in office.

Now, even though it was a law, Congress simply couldn't start smacking indictments and lawsuits on everyone. They had to give everyone time to get their businesses in compliance with the new law. They gave everyone until December 1st, 2009 before they'd start prosecuting those who failed to follow the rules. But House Rep Barney Frank, D-Mass, challenged the UIGEA, introducing a bill to overturn it and another bill to delay its implementation until Dec 1st, 2010. The first failed and the latter was only half successful, delaying enforcement until June 1st, 2010. That's when the DOJ's gears started cranking. Not 5-6 years ago, but slightly over ten months ago.

I don't disagree with his conclusions, just his timeline. Feel free to post this over there. I would, but I just don't feel like signing up for anymore sites right now.

 

[tusabes]

Indeed I did. I am waiting to cash out my roll on both sites. It's not all that much money, but it is 2 or three payments on my mortgage principal and I would like to have it in my bank as soon as I can.

If the two big sites can't be trusted to return the money they hold for US citizens what country's citizens CAN trust them.

Any country where it's legal to accept transactions to/from gambling sites.

I'm in an identical situation as you as far as the number of mortgage payments I have tied up. My point is it's legal for the sites to facilitate bank transactions for the rest of the world. After 2006 UIGEA we (U.S. players) knew it was illegal for them to process these transactions but we chose to play anyway. Now that DOJ is enforcing the "law" it's hard for me to be upset with the sites for having a difficult time with thes final transactions.

I was just trying to put myself in the shoes of these businesses and how I would approach this. Why not have site reps go on Fox and ask "Why can't we return the money?" "We here at FTP/PS want to in the worse way pay our valued customers, please allow us to service these people DOJ." If I'm the sites I show my customers as victims of the unjust government policy.

Make a commercial with a hundred faces, all ages, genders, races of players/families saying how much money they have locked and how long they have been out of the real job market and air it on ESPN,CST, FSN, etc. From the low stakes grinders grinding out few hundred $/week (me) to the high stakes players all need to have a face. They need to be humanized to the non-poker playing public.

 

[tusabes]

My inbox this morning.

Dear myname,
We regret to inform you that due to recent actions by the U.S. government, full tilt poker is still unable to facilitate 'real money' play, deposits, or withdrawals by players based in the United States, including the processing of any pending rakeback payments.
Rest assured that our technical and legal teams are working towards a solution that would allow us to return these funds and account balances to you as soon as possible. As always, your player account remains safe and secure, and we apologize for any inconvenience caused by these actions.
We will keep you updated with any information as it becomes available. Thank you for your continued support.
Sincerely,
The Full Tilt Poker Affiliate Team

 

[OzExorcist]

Anyone with a clue in the DOJ would have come up with a plan for them to refund the money before they announce the agreement.

What a charade!!!

Why would they want to do that?

This way they get to head off the potentially troublesome PR problem of holding the money of hard-working American taxpayers hostage, which could make them and the administration look bad in the eyes of the general public.

The fact they've replaced it with a logistical problem that nobody seems to have an answer for yet is a minor issue in comparison. The headlines all say they're doing the right thing by giving the money back and that's what matters most.

Simples!

 

[BeachJustice]

Damn! He came so close…

While the UIGEA has "been around" for about five years, it has only been legally enforceable for the last 10 months. To start, the current UIGEA was a "proposal" amendment tacked onto the SAFE Port Act in September 2006 and signed into law the following October. The proposal stipulated that the Federal Reserve and Treasury Department draft legislation for the UIGEA. That's all. They had 270 days to do so and it actually took about a year. From October 2007 to October 2008 the UIGEA was "tabled for discussion" as a "Notice of Proposed Rulemaking" and over 400 banks, advocacy groups, politicians, gambling entities, payment processors and consumers voiced dissent over it to the deaf ears of Washington.

In November of 2008, the "NPRM" was enacted as a "Final Rule", (ie, no more discussion or language tinkering,) and signed into law, and during the Bush Administration's 11th hour "midnight drop" it went into effect on January 19th, 2009, Bush's last day in office.

Now, even though it was a law, Congress simply couldn't start smacking indictments and lawsuits on everyone. They had to give everyone time to get their businesses in compliance with the new law. They gave everyone until December 1st, 2009 before they'd start prosecuting those who failed to follow the rules. But House Rep Barney Frank, D-Mass, challenged the UIGEA, introducing a bill to overturn it and another bill to delay its implementation until Dec 1st, 2010. The first failed and the latter was only half successful, delaying enforcement until June 1st, 2010. That's when the DOJ's gears started cranking. Not 5-6 years ago, but slightly over ten months ago.

I don't disagree with his conclusions, just his timeline. Feel free to post this over there. I would, but I just don't feel like signing up for anymore sites right now.

Thanks a lot for clearing that up, going to make a couple changes now. Fortunately it doesn't change most of my questions about why poker companies. UIGEA by itself is still a harder argument against a poker site than a sportsbook or casino under UIGEA or the gambling laws cited, which is why I don't think either of those charges are the main force behind this.

 

[the Styb]

Thanks a lot for clearing that up, going to make a couple changes now. Fortunately it doesn't change most of my questions about why poker companies. UIGEA by itself is still a harder argument against a poker site than a sportsbook or casino, which is why I don't think its the main force behind this.

Yeah, as I say I agree with it except for the time assigned to the UIGEA. You might want to check out the previous measure which passed the House but failed, or rather was ignored by, the Senate, HR 4411: Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act. It's basically a rewrite of the '61 Wire Act as you mentioned, but I don't know if the Senate had problems with the prohibition part of it or the ten-million dollar/year price tag for 2007, 08, 09 and 10.

I'm still trying to work my head around this paragraph:

(b) Nothing in this section prohibits…
(1) the transmission of information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers for use in news reporting if such transmission does not solicit or provide information for the purpose of facilitating or enabling the placing or receipt of bets or wagers in a jursidiction where such betting is illegal.

Sounds like, if you're a reporter, you're good to gamble by wire as long as you're working on a story and betting is legal in your area?

I love the government CYA doublespeak where they use words or letter combinations to double or repeat the same idea or message so that citizens or people have to read or examine everything twice or again in order to comprehend or understand what they're talking or speaking about.

What would eventually become UIGEA, HR 4954, the SAFE Port Act is at the very bottom of the page. (Scroll all the way down.) The sections not outlined can be seen in Chapter 53 of the Title 31 Code.


The UIGEA Board by M Styborski, on Flickr

 

[BeachJustice]

Yeah, as I say I agree with it except for the time assigned to the UIGEA. You might want to check out the previous measure which passed the House but failed, or rather was ignored by, the Senate, HR 4411: Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act. It's basically a rewrite of the '61 Wire Act as you mentioned, but I don't know if the Senate had problems with the prohibition part of it or the ten-million dollar/year price tag for 2007, 08, 09 and 10.

I'm still trying to work my head around this paragraph:



Sounds like, if you're a reporter, you're good to gamble by wire?


The UIGEA Board by M Styborski, on Flickr

That's the goodlatte bill right that passed with something like 317 votes in favor? I was aware of the enforcement delay for UIGEA, I did misunderstood the timeframe, I thought it was more like 18 months ago than 10 months ago, but either way should have mentioned that. Thanks again.

After I found Nate Silver's blog of the legislative history, I decided to include less history and let his blog cover that element.

 

[KerouacsDog]

Get my rakeback today in Fulltilt, maybe transfers are working now.

same here Logan, but what about your neteller withdrawal? 5 days and still waiting for me................

 

[the Styb]

That's the goodlatte bill right that passed with something like 317 votes in favor? I was aware of the enforcement delay for UIGEA, I did misunderstood the timeframe, I thought it was more like 18 months ago than 10 months ago, but either way should have mentioned that. Thanks again.

After I found Nate Silver's blog of the legislative history, I decided to include less history and let his blog cover that element.

Silver makes an interesting observation:

When provisions to legalize online poker were under discussion last year, some players opposed them because the regulations would have established a 15- or 18-month moratorium during which no operator could offer games to the U.S., an effort to level the playing field demanded by the American Gaming Association.

The AGA is the group lobbying for the casinos to be able to operate US sanctioned online gambling sites. Any bets on the Black Friday lasting 15 to 18 months? And I'll guess the casinos will be up and running in about a year with the software that FT and Stars helped develop for Wynn's and the others…

 

[Logan2]

same here Logan, but what about your Neteller withdrawal? 5 days and still waiting for me................

Naaa, same, after the "will take 24-48hrs" first email than after 4 days they send me the 2nd email with the "we escalade you in the withdraw process and now will take 12-24hrs"

... that was 2 days back.

Not much hope to be honest.

Even playing now all Fppoints left and some cash that leave there before cashout. Playing some multientry with rebuys/addons that usually will not be playing. Or i get some more $ that will be stuck anyway or i blow the rest and move on to other site already.

 

[KerouacsDog]

yeah, I thought for Neteller withdrawals it would be almost automatic, always was in the past.
I havent withdrawn much, just wanted to see if it was 'business as usual outside the US'.........seems its not lol.

 

[BeachJustice]

Silver makes an interesting observation:



The AGA is the group lobbying for the casinos to be able to operate US sanctioned online gambling sites. Any bets on the Black Friday lasting 15 to 18 months? And I'll guess the casinos will be up and running in about a year with the software that FT and Stars helped develop for Wynn's and the others…

Yeah I don't know. I don't think black friday was politically motivated. The 15 month blackout from the reid bill was there to give US companies a chance to catch up. But now, they'll be facing MUCH less competition when a bill gets passed, so I doubt such a long blackout will be necessary or even desired by them. As for how long our new status quo lasts, who knows, we obviously need legislation, but its hard to see how that happens until after 2012 when Kyl will be gone from the senate, unless he runs out of political capital before he is done.

 

[SYWTWAF]

Any US citizens or former US residents currently located outside the US suddenly unable to play real money games on FTP today?!

I lived in the US when I initially opened my FTP account and accordingly signed up with a US address. However, I relocated to Asia last September, and have been playing exclusively from there ever since. I had never cashed out and hadn't planned on doing so anytime soon, so I left my account details as it was when I relocated, and didn't update my address.

I could still play when "Black Friday" went down. But in light of it, I thought it prudent to finally change my location to reflect my current one. Things went smoothly afterward.

Up until a few hours ago, that is. Suddenly, when I tried to join a real money table, Full Tilt gave me a pop-up message saying,"We're sorry – as you are currently located within the United States of America, you cannot perform that action." When I checked my account details, I saw my address has been auto-reverted to my former US one, and that I now can't edit it manually.

I emailed FT Support explaining my situation. I'm not a US citizen. I'm not living in the US. My account is linked to a US address that is irrelevant to me at this time. I should be able to play, but I can't. I hope someone out there will quickly sort this out for me, in spite of how understandably busy they must be right now, and in spite of FT Support's historically less-than-stellar reputation.

I don't think I wholly appreciated what Americans went through until I experienced having the ability to play online poker revoked myself.

 

[WVHillbilly]

FTP put out a recent update that changed peoples country back to what they were before the seizure. You'll have to work it out with support, which should take somewhere around 3 weeks I would guess.

 

[bgomez89]

Urgent news from the PPA!!!




Yeah. It was us. Not the fact that the seizure breaks international trade agreements. Not the pressure from other nations whose citizens accounts have been frozen by those illegal seizures. Feh.

didn't we already know that the DOJ was allowing the sites to give us our money...?

 

[Charade You Are]

Lol @ anyone trying to say one politician is better than another. They're all a joke.

What he said^^^^^^

What further proof do you need other than the lame boilerplate answers to our emails. Protect the children my ass. Rather have my 15 year old play poker than visit porn sites or make dates on Craig's list with perverts.