Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
Yeah you're probably right. The higher the figure the more likely they're boned, so I was probably just being overly optimistic.
Yeah you're probably right. The higher the figure the more likely they're boned, so I was probably just being overly optimistic.
O
onemorechance
live free or die
Silver Level
So you think there's no skill in poker?
Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
Name me a game where the more skilled participant is guaranteed to win 100% of the time. Open question, if anyone can give an example I'll be impressed. Chess? No, sorry, a less skilled player can beat a more skilled player - okay, there's a very close to 100% chance that you or I will lose to a grandmaster but a slightly less skilled grandmaster can still beat a slightly more skilled grandmaster, or a slightly less skilled schmuck can beat a slightly more skilled schmuck.
Every game I can think of involves chance given small sample sizes, which is why the skill vs. chance argument is stupid and should be irrelevant.
Plus there's the whole argument of what constitutes a 'win' in poker anyway, given the open-ended nature of the game.
"Skill vs chance" is nothing but smoke and mirrors. The PPA ramble on about it because they have no power or influence to do anything more constructive (even their first press release after this news broke included "millions of people enjoy this game OF SKILL LOL SKILL NOT CHANCE SUCK ON THAT DOJ LMAO"*), and others ramble on about it because they just don't know any better. Want to prove that poker is a game of skill in a court of law? Fine, go ahead, but if the government wants it banned then guess what? It ain't gonna make any difference. In fact iirc several state courts have accepted the 'game of skill' argument in the not-too-distant past but guess what? Stars and FT still got boned by the DOJ, and the list of sites that Americans can play on is still dwindling.
* - I'm paraphrasing slightly >_>
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pokerchris
Legend
Silver Level
The stupid Bush and stupid Republicans started the stupid Iraq war which cost US hundreds of billions of dollars for nothing.
I rather pay more tax than pay for those stupid war.
bubbasbestbabe
Suckout Queen
Silver Level
This is the best quote yet,
“Some people inside the poker industry are delusional when it comes to the likelihood of legislation,” Mr. Adams said.
I hate to pop some peoples bubbles. Being a realist online poker is dead. The game is over in the US. Time to move on. Either go to a casino or get some home games going. And I hope you get your monies. Sounds like to me that Tilt is not in any hurry to give back your bankrolls. And think about it, what can you do if they didn't? There is nothing. And players in other countries could care less about that also. So long as they can play and get their money it's tough shit for the US players.
“Some people inside the poker industry are delusional when it comes to the likelihood of legislation,” Mr. Adams said.
I hate to pop some peoples bubbles. Being a realist online poker is dead. The game is over in the US. Time to move on. Either go to a casino or get some home games going. And I hope you get your monies. Sounds like to me that Tilt is not in any hurry to give back your bankrolls. And think about it, what can you do if they didn't? There is nothing. And players in other countries could care less about that also. So long as they can play and get their money it's tough shit for the US players.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
Wanna bet?
Debi
Forum Admin
Administrator
People who live close to live casinos keep saying this over and over as if it is the easiest thing for anyone to do.
I live at least a 6 hour drive from any reasonable place to play live. Which means the cheapest and best place for me to go is Vegas. I go there every few months. That does not come close to replacing online poker where I played over 200 tournaments a month. And besides I was already doing that anyway - so it is not replacing anything.
Get home games going???? We are lucky to round up enough people in our area to play once in a blue moon - and then it is small games that are more about having fun than playing poker. That does not come close to replacing playing poker online for me - not even on the same planet.
Sorry - but I choose to have hope that one day my livelihood will be re-stored.
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T
Tangerine 53
Rock Star
Silver Level
I assume you mean 'couldn't' here? If so you are completely wrong. Like many other Europeans, Australasians, South Africans etc who are CC members I actually feel a real sense of loss for what's going on in the US and the fact that many livelihoods and recreational hobbies have been taken away from you overnight.
Please don't think that we outside of the US don't care. Powerless to act maybe, but not caring? No.
N
nightmoves44
Legend
Silver Level
No,It take alot of time investigating ,to bring a case of this size and magnatude.Building this case has been in the works quite awhile,prolly over a year.
You can bet that fed investigators joined the sites and played at them,to gain info...and actually,some could be members here too,because its a great place for the lastest information.Or at least browsed as a guest.
O
onemorechance
live free or die
Silver Level
bubbasbestbabe
Suckout Queen
Silver Level
Well thank you for the compliment. But I stand on what I wrote. Remember the UB scandal and how that was going to be the end of that site? It is still going strong. For everyone who cares there are 2 who don't.
Our Government has much more important things to do than worry about a few poker players. They have to make sure that they collect from deeper pockets than a rag tag bunch of dissatisfied online players. The PPA is a joke. They have nothing to back themselves up, i.e. money to lobby, (bribe) Congress.
Money is what talks in DC. And all of ours has gone to rake on these sites. The sites will do just fine without US players. Maybe only 5 billion in profits for them instead of 15. But they are still making money.
And as for my comment about home games and such, the players in this country are going to have to go back to what it was before. Occasional trips to a casino,(special treat), or setting up home games. You can hope for some change but I don't believe it will happen soon.
Barney's bill has languished in Congress. There hasn't been any movement on it. And until there is money to sway the votes it won't move. Maybe down the road in 2-3 years something will change. And then again it will be because money,(Vegas) will have greased enough palms to forward it.
Am I cynical? You bet. I have seen a lot of similar things happen in our country. And until there is a major change in the way this government does business things won't change. You're young WVH. Why don't you ask members who are over 50-60 what they think. They will agree with me.
the Styb
Rock Star
Silver Level
ZeusCayman
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Well for one, you just changed you original argument. Going from "online poker is dead forever" to "maybe something with be around in 2 or 3 years."
Two, things are quite different now that poker players have had their poker taken away from them. The UIGEA didn't prevent poker players from playing, so there was a little scare with the casual players, but the more regular players found another way to play. Today, there aren't really any other options, but to fight for poker legislations. Now that poker players have united, they are putting much more effort into this fight.
The government is also now passing up on millions of dollars in tax revenue that American poker players were paying them along with tax revenue they are missing out on from companies moving overseas. There is too much money on the table for online poker to die and with the struggling economy every politician is looking for something to take back to their constituents showing them they did a good job.
It'll be back. Maybe not for 6 months, or 15 months, but it'll be back.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
Where is this paragraph from?
G
GreenMonster619
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Hi everyone. I dont have time to read through all these post but I would like it if someone could help me out. Im just a recreational player and requested a check from FT on April 6. With last weeks events I am not sure if the check they issued me that I receieved is good. Can i deposit it or will FT have to issue me a new one. I emailed FT today but Lord knows i wont hear anything for at least another week. Thanks.
Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
The check will bounce, don't try and deposit it. FT are working to find a way to enable cashouts, until then all you can do is mail them and tell them you're destroying the check and to credit your account accordingly.
(This is assuming you're in the USA. International cashouts are fine afaik)
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Given the magnitude of the issues here, and the impotence of our Government in getting anything actually accomplished, I think BBB is correct. For all practical purposes, online is dead in the water for US players.
At this point there is no legal way for the sites to get our monies back to us. Under the UEGIA, there can be NO LEGAL WAY for the sites to get our monies back to us.
The ONLY way to get our monies is going to be for the poker sites to beat this in court. Thing is, why should they even bother? If they ( the sites) were to do something as simple as stating they would use 1 whole year of worldwide profits to fight these charges, the Government would probably rescind the charges knowing they would have to spend billions of dollars litigating it, with no guarantee of winning it (even moralistic bastard Republicans and Tea-Partiers would see that as futile, and wasteful). But even if that were to happen, there are still the existing laws, which provide no clarity. So they won't do that.
I agree, the PPA is essentially useless. I think they are approaching the whole issue too cleanly. When dealing with skunks, it is imperative to have the bigger odor.
The few hundred I had online was for distraction, entertainment, and I really never expect to see it. I don't mind, for 5 or 7 years I have played and been entertained. Small price to pay. I had proposed a 10% solution, but that fell on deaf minds.
So, at the end of the day, there will be NO LEGAL WAY to return our monies, and NO MORAL COMPUNCTION to find a way.
The DoJ says they have not sequestered our monies....
I call BULLSHIT ! Their actions have sequestered our monies. And there is nothing anyone can do about it in the short run, and few who will hang in there for the long run.
BBB is right. OLP (online poker) is dead in the US. At least as we have known it.
p.s. While I lament that we have to deal with the pseudo moralistic right, we also have to deal with the wimpy left, too afraid to take a real stand on anything, especially personal liberties. And under an ultimate Libertarian system, someone would own the boulevard your street connects to, and would charge you every time you used it.
Give me Liberty, or give me someone who will give me liberty.
At this point there is no legal way for the sites to get our monies back to us. Under the UEGIA, there can be NO LEGAL WAY for the sites to get our monies back to us.
The ONLY way to get our monies is going to be for the poker sites to beat this in court. Thing is, why should they even bother? If they ( the sites) were to do something as simple as stating they would use 1 whole year of worldwide profits to fight these charges, the Government would probably rescind the charges knowing they would have to spend billions of dollars litigating it, with no guarantee of winning it (even moralistic bastard Republicans and Tea-Partiers would see that as futile, and wasteful). But even if that were to happen, there are still the existing laws, which provide no clarity. So they won't do that.
I agree, the PPA is essentially useless. I think they are approaching the whole issue too cleanly. When dealing with skunks, it is imperative to have the bigger odor.
The few hundred I had online was for distraction, entertainment, and I really never expect to see it. I don't mind, for 5 or 7 years I have played and been entertained. Small price to pay. I had proposed a 10% solution, but that fell on deaf minds.
So, at the end of the day, there will be NO LEGAL WAY to return our monies, and NO MORAL COMPUNCTION to find a way.
The DoJ says they have not sequestered our monies....
I call BULLSHIT ! Their actions have sequestered our monies. And there is nothing anyone can do about it in the short run, and few who will hang in there for the long run.
BBB is right. OLP (online poker) is dead in the US. At least as we have known it.
p.s. While I lament that we have to deal with the pseudo moralistic right, we also have to deal with the wimpy left, too afraid to take a real stand on anything, especially personal liberties. And under an ultimate Libertarian system, someone would own the boulevard your street connects to, and would charge you every time you used it.
Give me Liberty, or give me someone who will give me liberty.
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dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Part of the UIGEA:
§ 5362. Definitions
In this subchapter:
(1 ) BET OR WAGER.
The term 'bet or wager'—
(A) means the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome;
(B) includes the purchase of a chance or opportunity to win a lottery or other prize (which opportunity to win is predominantly subject to chance);
(C) includes any scheme of a type described in section 3702 of title 28;
(D) includes any instructions or information pertaining to the establishment or movement of funds by the bettor or customer in, to, or from an account with the business of betting or wagering; and
(E) does not include-
(i) any activity governed by the securities laws (as that term is defined in section 3(a)(47) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 for the purchase or sale of securities (as that term is defined in section 3(a)(10) of that Act);
(ii) any transaction conducted on or subject to the rules of a registered entity or exempt board of trade under the Commodity Exchange Act;
(iii) any over-the-counter derivative instrument;
(iv) any other transaction that
(I) is excluded or exempt from regulation under the Commodity Exchange Act; or
(II) is exempt from State gaming or bucket shop laws under section 12(e) of the Commodity Exchange Act or section 28(a) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934;
(v) any contract of indemnity or guarantee;
(vi) any contract for insurance;
(vii) any deposit or other transaction with an insured depository institution;
(viii) participation in any game or contest in which participants do not stake or risk anything of value other than
(I) personal efforts of the participants in playing the game or contest or obtaining access to the Internet; or
(II) points or credits that the sponsor of the game or contest provides to participants free of charge and that can be used or redeemed only for participation in games or contests offered by the sponsor; or
(ix) participation in any fantasy or simulation sports game or educational game or contest in which (if the game or contest involves a team or teams) no fantasy or simulation sports team is based on the current membership of an actual team that is a member of an amateur or professional sports organization (as those terms are defined in section 3701 of title 28) and that meets the following conditions:
(I) All prizes and awards offered to winning participants are established and made known to the participants in advance of the game or contest and their value is not determined by the number of participants or the amount of any fees paid by those participants.
(II) All winning outcomes reflect the relative knowledge and skill of the participants and are determined predominantly by accumulated statistical results of the performance of individuals (athletes in the case of sports events) in multiple real-world sporting or other events.
(III) No winning outcome is based
(aa) on the score, pointspread, or any performance or performances of any single real world team or any combination of such teams; or
(bb) solely on any single performance of an individual athlete in any single real-world sporting or other event.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
DJ, you have no clue what you're talking about. The UIGEA does NOT block sites from paying players. Never has. The UIGEA blocks banks from sending money TO poker sites, that's it.
I'm constantly amazed at how ignorant of the laws some of you folks who have been around here forever can be. I mean, I'm sure the above has only been posted 1000 times before.
Btw, internet poker is not dead in the US even right now. I can still play on bodog, Merge, Cake, or Everleaf today. Stars and Tilt are gone to us, but both would like to continue serving foreign customers and as long as they plan to stay in business I'm certain we'll get our $$s.
Also lol at bbb saying that sites will be content because they're still making money while $10B+ in revenue sits untapped. Yeah most business is happy just making a few coins and leaving a huge market under-served.
I'm constantly amazed at how ignorant of the laws some of you folks who have been around here forever can be. I mean, I'm sure the above has only been posted 1000 times before.
Btw, internet poker is not dead in the US even right now. I can still play on bodog, Merge, Cake, or Everleaf today. Stars and Tilt are gone to us, but both would like to continue serving foreign customers and as long as they plan to stay in business I'm certain we'll get our $$s.
Also lol at bbb saying that sites will be content because they're still making money while $10B+ in revenue sits untapped. Yeah most business is happy just making a few coins and leaving a huge market under-served.
ChuckTs
Legend
Silver Level
DJ, you have no clue what you're talking about. The UIGEA does NOT block sites from paying players. Never has. The UIGEA blocks banks from sending money TO poker sites, that's it.
I'm constantly amazed at how ignorant of the laws some of you folks who have been around here forever can be. I mean, I'm sure the above has only been posted 1000 times before.
Btw, internet poker is not dead in the US even right now. I can still play on Bodog, Merge, Cake, or Everleaf today. Stars and Tilt are gone to us, but both would like to continue serving foreign customers and as long as they plan to stay in business I'm certain we'll get our $$s.
Also lol at bbb saying that sites will be content because they're still making money while $10B+ in revenue sits untapped. Yeah most business is happy just making a few coins and leaving a huge market under-served.
Ditto.
isaac
Visionary
Silver Level
amidst the arguing anyone else notice that fulltiltpoker.com is back up and running?
O
onemorechance
live free or die
Silver Level
DJ, you have no clue what you're talking about. The UIGEA does NOT block sites from paying players. Never has. The UIGEA blocks banks from sending money TO poker sites, that's it.
I'm constantly amazed at how ignorant of the laws some of you folks who have been around here forever can be. I mean, I'm sure the above has only been posted 1000 times before.
Btw, internet poker is not dead in the US even right now. I can still play on Bodog, Merge, Cake, or Everleaf today. Stars and Tilt are gone to us, but both would like to continue serving foreign customers and as long as they plan to stay in business I'm certain we'll get our $$s.
Also lol at bbb saying that sites will be content because they're still making money while $10B+ in revenue sits untapped. Yeah most business is happy just making a few coins and leaving a huge market under-served.
You missed out the most ridiculous part of the posts though, bbb called you 'young'