Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Figaroo2]

I'd CR a little larger on the flop. As played, turn bet looks good. And if he shoves?

I make calling if off a roughly -$2.54 EV play.
(.18) (18.26) - (1-.18) (7.11)
so it's a fold if he shoved assuming we have to hit the flush to win. This doesnt include if any of our flush cards are dirty and boat him.
I note we are both 120bb deep. If this had been 100bb and we had bet bigger on the flop and proportionately bigger on the turn it's going to be closer. I'll look later.

 

[John A]

I make calling if off a roughly -$2.54 EV play.
(.18) (18.26) - (1-.18) (7.11)
so it's a fold if he shoved assuming we have to hit the flush to win. This doesnt include if any of our flush cards are dirty and boat him.
I note we are both 120bb deep. If this had been 100bb and we had bet bigger on the flop and proportionately bigger on the turn it's going to be closer. I'll look later.

Good job my friend! You're getting it!

 

[John A]

Guys what are the things I should improve in my game to play live cash? And how do you know you are ready to play live and what kind of bankroll is required? And a comparison between online micros and lowest live tables? Lets's say 1/2 dollar...
I found out about a poker room in a local casino
And I think it's the only one here open to public and I'd like to give it a try when I'm able & ready. I expect the games to be softer but don't have a clear idea.

There's a lot of free stuff out there on live play. Most tells at that level are basic. Players looking at their chips before it's their turn. Moving back slightly after seeing the flop (they missed), or slightly forward when they hit. Nervous tells like scratching their face or nose a lot, etc... simple things.

1/2 live is softer than probably any online game. Maybe softer than 5NL? Someone else confirm because I haven't played in a while. I don't think there's much you have to do except prepare for the boredom and the grind.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

There's a lot of free stuff out there on live play. Most tells at that level are basic. Players looking at their chips before it's their turn. Moving back slightly after seeing the flop (they missed), or slightly forward when they hit. Nervous tells like scratching their face or nose a lot, etc... simple things.

1/2 live is softer than probably any online game. Maybe softer than 5NL? Someone else confirm because I haven't played in a while. I don't think there's much you have to do except prepare for the boredom and the grind.

In, finally.


I would venture to say live 1/2 plays like 1c2c. Everyone is atrocious.


Patience is the key. Even if you just sit there for hours and finally play, people are so inattentive they don't notice.

 

[Alucard]

Thanks guys. Helpful indeed. But it'l take some for me to try out live. lol

Here's a question. Would you cbet on a board like & continue to steal the pot where the V doesn't seem that interested or go for a cheaper showdown by just checking?

partypoker - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 29.85, PFR: 16.19, 3Bet Preflop: 4.79, hands: 8,991)
BB: 126.4 BB (VPIP: 28.31, PFR: 16.53, 3Bet Preflop: 6.36, Hands: 8,755)
UTG: 101.4 BB (VPIP: 28.86, PFR: 15.78, 3Bet Preflop: 5.52, Hands: 9,381)
Hero (MP): 157.8 BB
CO: 203.2 BB (VPIP: 28.74, PFR: 16.37, 3Bet Preflop: 4.95, Hands: 8,521)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 28.08, PFR: 16.33, 3Bet Preflop: 5.52, Hands: 10,225)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qh Ac
fold, Hero raises to 2.8 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 1.8 BB

Flop : (6 BB, 2 players) 8c Jd 9s
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn : (6 BB, 2 players) 2s
BB checks, Hero checks

River : (6 BB, 2 players) 9h
BB checks, Hero checks

BB shows Qc Kh (One Pair, Nines)
(Pre 25%, Flop 27%, Turn 16%)

Hero shows Qh Ac (One Pair, Nines)
(Pre 75%, Flop 73%, Turn 84%)

Hero wins 5.8 BB


And I don't think at higher stakes it'd go check check like this am I right?
And I tried some 5NL today and one thing I noticed is people aren't afraid calling 3bets or even 4bets. One guy went in a big 4bet pot by me KK vs 55

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Thanks guys. Helpful indeed. But it'l take some for me to try out live. lol

Here's a question. Would you cbet on a board like & continue to steal the pot where the V doesn't seem that interested or go for a cheaper showdown by just checking?

partypoker - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 29.85, PFR: 16.19, 3Bet Preflop: 4.79, Hands: 8,991)
BB: 126.4 BB (VPIP: 28.31, PFR: 16.53, 3Bet Preflop: 6.36, Hands: 8,755)
UTG: 101.4 BB (VPIP: 28.86, PFR: 15.78, 3Bet Preflop: 5.52, Hands: 9,381)
Hero (MP): 157.8 BB
CO: 203.2 BB (VPIP: 28.74, PFR: 16.37, 3Bet Preflop: 4.95, Hands: 8,521)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 28.08, PFR: 16.33, 3Bet Preflop: 5.52, Hands: 10,225)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qh Ac
fold, Hero raises to 2.8 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 1.8 BB

Flop : (6 BB, 2 players) 8c Jd 9s
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn : (6 BB, 2 players) 2s
BB checks, Hero checks

River : (6 BB, 2 players) 9h
BB checks, Hero checks

BB shows Qc Kh (One Pair, Nines)
(Pre 25%, Flop 27%, Turn 16%)

Hero shows Qh Ac (One Pair, Nines)
(Pre 75%, Flop 73%, Turn 84%)

Hero wins 5.8 BB


And I don't think at higher stakes it'd go check check like this am I right?
And I tried some 5NL today and one thing I noticed is people aren't afraid calling 3bets or even 4bets. One guy went in a big 4bet pot by me KK vs 55

I will give this my thoughts, however, listen to John.


We can cbet here, we are HU, and we have GS+BDFD. Our overs may be dirty if we get called, giving 2p to V, or straight.

If we cbet though, we also have to think about the future. Like, are we willing to fire twice?
Three times? Thats alot of money to dump into a pot with A high.

I personally would check back probably. I would do this because I am trying to get ti showdown cheap. Cbet is probably not getting through.

If you cbet, know its not going to get through alot. Board wet. Everyone seems to have a 10, alot anyway.

 

[mvrkaus]

Lotta good reads, will be dropping some questions eventually

 

[John A]

In, finally.


I would venture to say live 1/2 plays like 1c2c. Everyone is atrocious.


Patience is the key. Even if you just sit there for hours and finally play, people are so inattentive they don't notice.

Yup, patience is #1. I can't play live for too long, and that's probably why I don't play many high stakes poker tournaments. I go nuts after awhile just sitting.

 

[Ian the Fish]

Hmmm...

I already posted the hand on my thread, but I will copy it here as well, as I am interested what you guys have to say about it...
From ( https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...ker-progress-journal-317033/post-3866437.html ):

Pacific, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $5.86 (117.2 bb)
BB: $2.50 (50 bb)
UTG: $2.11 (42.2 bb)
Hero (MP): $6.14 (122.8 bb)
CO: $5 (100 bb) VPIP: 16, PFR: 14, 3-bet: 8
BTN: $4.42 (88.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

Q

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.17, CO raises to $0.53, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.36

Flop: ($1.13) A

A

6

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.61, Hero calls $0.61

Turn: ($2.35) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($2.35) T

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.02, CO raises to $3.86 and is all-in,

Can anyone fold this? I did put him on surprisingly many Aces there, but I just couldn't fold. Is a fold here even profitable? He has only so few combos (KK, AK, AQ) that beat me.

Spoiler

Hero calls $2.84

Results: $10.07 pot ($0.50 rake)
Final Board: A

A

6

A

T

Hero showed Q

Q

and lost (-$5 net)
CO showed K

A

and won $9.57 ($4.57 net)

 

[John A]

And I don't think at higher stakes it'd go check check like this am I right?
And I tried some 5NL today and one thing I noticed is people aren't afraid calling 3bets or even 4bets. One guy went in a big 4bet pot by me KK vs 55

Mmmm... sometimes it can for sure. But at this level, I think betting the turn for value in your side is ok. But as played, it's fine.

 

[John A]

I already posted the hand on my thread, but I will copy it here as well, as I am interested what you guys have to say about it...
From ( https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...ker-progress-journal-317033/post-3866437.html ):

Pacific, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $5.86 (117.2 bb)
BB: $2.50 (50 bb)
UTG: $2.11 (42.2 bb)
Hero (MP): $6.14 (122.8 bb)
CO: $5 (100 bb) VPIP: 16, PFR: 14, 3-bet: 8
BTN: $4.42 (88.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

Q

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.17, CO raises to $0.53, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.36

Flop: ($1.13) A

A

6

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.61, Hero calls $0.61

Turn: ($2.35) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($2.35) T

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.02, CO raises to $3.86 and is all-in,

Can anyone fold this? I did put him on surprisingly many Aces there, but I just couldn't fold. Is a fold here even profitable? He has only so few combos (KK, AK, AQ) that beat me.

Spoiler

Hero calls $2.84

Results: $10.07 pot ($0.50 rake)
Final Board: A

A

6

A

T

Hero showed Q

Q

and lost (-$5 net)
CO showed K

A

and won $9.57 ($4.57 net)

W/o seeing aggression numbers it's close. True there aren't many combos of Ax/ KK, but he's probably not jamming other worse value hands like JJ, and TT just killed some action, and likely not jamming Tx ever. So you're really just looking at how often you think he's bluffing. At these stakes, on those initially numbers, I always lean towards almost never bluffing in this spot.

So a call is slightly -EV I'd say, but could bring it close to neutral if he has really high aggression numbers. It's not a huge -EV call though. I would never call it a leak to be calling here unless he's really passive.

 

[John A]

Is there something we should discuss that people have been struggling with?

I know I still want to do some BB defense strategy talk. I'm putting together a new database to talk about that and discuss some actual hand ranges. It just takes some time to do an fully analyze.

In the meantime, what else has been going on?

 

[Beanfacekilla]

I have a hand I'd like some input on. I hope it's ok to post it ITT. I posted it in my thread also.




I play live, so I type these out. Sorry if the format is bad.




We are in BB. We have Ah-5h. We are about $450 deep. 1/2.




Action folds to UTG+1. He raises to $10.


UTG1 was on our 2/5 table yesterday. His UTG opens are lol SMH loose. He is so loose UTG. We saw him open K-4s, K-10o, among others.


MP1 calls.

LP calls.

SB calls.

UTG1 has $250-$300, then $136, 150, and $400 respectively.



I have been reading Ed Miller some lately. Ah-5h, yeah I think this a 3b hand here.*


So, we 3b squeeze to $55.

UTG1 folds. MP1 (first caller) ships it for $136, fairly quickly. Unknown player.


All fold to me.


We are looking at about $230 dead money here. $81 more to call.


I expect MP to have a pair, like 6-6 through QQ.

So we getting about 2.6 to 1 to call here. I think I am 33% most of the hands he has? We are blocking AA.




What do we do here? I feel like it's supposed to be a sigh call? Is that spewy?


Thoughts?


Edit: line check, from the start? Should we squeeze here? Should we 3b bigger due to stack sizes?

 

[Alucard]

Is there something we should discuss that people have been struggling with?

I know I still want to do some BB defense strategy talk. I'm putting together a new database to talk about that and discuss some actual hand ranges. It just takes some time to do an fully analyze.

In the meantime, what else has been going on?

I've been struggling with playing from the small blind blind vs blind. I've no clue how to cbet sometimes and struggles with reading BBs hand strength

 

[mrpolyglott]

Hey everyone and John A specifically!
I'm a new one to poker, have played for a month with ups and downs maintaining the 0 win level I'm eager to learn and practice but I feel like a lack of a tutor, mentor or a group of the same-thinkers who will somehow tell me in what direction should I proceed.
I'd like to know wether you still accept new students or the deal has expired? Will I be accepted as a student if I follow all instructions given in the first message of this thread and will I be able to take part in a study process?
Thx a lot for your attantion and response!

 

[John A]

I have a hand I'd like some input on. I hope it's ok to post it ITT. I posted it in my thread also.




I play live, so I type these out. Sorry if the format is bad.




We are in BB. We have Ah-5h. We are about $450 deep. 1/2.




Action folds to UTG+1. He raises to $10.


UTG1 was on our 2/5 table yesterday. His UTG opens are lol SMH loose. He is so loose UTG. We saw him open K-4s, K-10o, among others.


MP1 calls.

LP calls.

SB calls.

UTG1 has $250-$300, then $136, 150, and $400 respectively.



I have been reading Ed Miller some lately. Ah-5h, yeah I think this a 3b hand here.*


So, we 3b squeeze to $55.

UTG1 folds. MP1 (first caller) ships it for $136, fairly quickly. Unknown player.


All fold to me.


We are looking at about $230 dead money here. $81 more to call.


I expect MP to have a pair, like 6-6 through QQ.

So we getting about 2.6 to 1 to call here. I think I am 33% most of the hands he has? We are blocking AA.




What do we do here? I feel like it's supposed to be a sigh call? Is that spewy?


Thoughts?


Edit: line check, from the start? Should we squeeze here? Should we 3b bigger due to stack sizes?

Yes, it's an auto call. But secondly, why are you squeezing that amount at 1/2 live and 1) expecting folds at that sizing, 2) not having thought about what happens if you're shoved on by various players in the hand?

Make sure you're considering the 2nd point... always. Berry berry important.

 

[John A]

I've been struggling with playing from the small blind blind vs blind. I've no clue how to cbet sometimes and struggles with reading BBs hand strength

What is your current SB open%?

 

[John A]

Hey everyone and John A specifically!
I'm a new one to poker, have played for a month with ups and downs maintaining the 0 win level I'm eager to learn and practice but I feel like a lack of a tutor, mentor or a group of the same-thinkers who will somehow tell me in what direction should I proceed.
I'd like to know wether you still accept new students or the deal has expired? Will I be accepted as a student if I follow all instructions given in the first message of this thread and will I be able to take part in a study process?
Thx a lot for your attantion and response!

Everyone is welcome at any time. Just grab the ebook, and stay active in here and you'll be good. Post questions, hands, etc... welcome.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Yes, it's an auto call. But secondly, why are you squeezing that amount at 1/2 live and 1) expecting folds at that sizing, 2) not having thought about what happens if you're shoved on by various players in the hand?

Make sure you're considering the 2nd point... always. Berry berry important.

I don't necessarily expect folds. Usually cbet gets it done if they call most of the time. One guy opens, call train starts, most of the time, first caller has strongest hand, and each caller after their hands get worse and worse.

2nd point reality check man. Guy had AA and we ran a flush and chopped his head off. Questioned my play a little, but deep down I know it was fine. I do get shoved on sometimes, and I did consider that possibility before making the play. That's why I asked if I should size 3b larger/smaller.


Thanks for the help John.

 

[Alucard]

What is your current SB open%?

how do you find it on PT4?
My PFR from SB on party poker is 29.99 over a 3730 hands

 

[Alucard]

John, what are the type of hands that fares well against a 3bet when you are OOP?

ex - you open 109s from UTG 6max and faces a 3bet from the button...

And is there a standard 3 bet calling range from each position both in position & OOP?

 

[John A]

I don't necessarily expect folds. Usually cbet gets it done if they call most of the time. One guy opens, call train starts, most of the time, first caller has strongest hand, and each caller after their hands get worse and worse.

2nd point reality check man. Guy had AA and we ran a flush and chopped his head off. Questioned my play a little, but deep down I know it was fine. I do get shoved on sometimes, and I did consider that possibility before making the play. That's why I asked if I should size 3b larger/smaller.


Thanks for the help John.

I wouldn't advise looking for spots where you're squeezing OOP, not looking for folds pre-flop so that you have a MW flop w/ A5 and only about a PSB left. If only the first 2 guys stay you can't c-bet if you miss. I must be missing something.

 

[John A]

how do you find it on PT4?
My PFR from SB on Party poker is 29.99 over a 3730 hands

You have to run a position report in PT4. I don't have PT on this system, only on my main system that I'm not on yet. But if you go into reports there's a drop down to run a report by position. Just look for your SB unopened raise%.

 

[John A]

John, what are the type of hands that fares well against a 3bet when you are OOP?

ex - you open 109s from UTG 6max and faces a 3bet from the button...

And is there a standard 3 bet calling range from each position both in position & OOP?

I think it's hard to create a good "std" calling range because position of open and 3-bet, type of player you are and your opponent in creates too many variables. I think in general you just obviously don't want cards that will be easily dominated. 100bb effective you should really just be super selective w/ your calling range.

I think most people calling 3-bets oop can't achieve -250bbs/100. At least from the data I've seen. IP, a much different story. And really, until you build any history with someone I'd error heavily on the side of folding to any 3-bets w/ marginal hands OOP. When in doubt, fold. But IP call w/ a much much wider range. So if someone is just looking at call 3-bet%, it looks in a std range. Then when you build history, calling with some SC's (in certain spots), and AK/AQ type hands and occasional big hands JJ+. But before you build history, play as exploitative as you possibly can at the stakes you're playing. If you do this well, your IP and OOP ranges won't look normalized yet and people will mis-read your ranges, which is an even bigger advantage because they don't know you've switched gears yet. But in most micro and even small stakes games, it's hard to build that much history.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

I wouldn't advise looking for spots where you're squeezing OOP, not looking for folds pre-flop so that you have a MW flop w/ A5 and only about a PSB left. If only the first 2 guys stay you can't c-bet if you miss. I must be missing something.

Fair enough. Assuming we don't squeeze, do we just fold here? Do we call and close, see a MW flop?

They usually just fold. Sometimes you get one caller. Cbet does work most of the time. However, once in a great while it backfires. This is one of those times.

What's the play in a similar spot with this hand? Talk to me man. I always need to learn. My cup is empty, figuratively (you can't fill a cup that's already full).


Cause I do this on occasion CO, BTN, SB, BB. If I should stop, yeah I need to do it asap.