Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[or3o1990]

These tiny bets are frustrating. I've been seeing this often. Sometimes when people have flush draws. As if they're trying to give themselves a good price to see a card. I was wrong in this instance. I doubt he's trying to induce a bluff here. Other than being a terrible player I can't see why the villain would bet like this here?

MP: 96.55 BB (VPIP: 10.81, PFR: 2.70, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 37)
Hero (CO): 129.65 BB
BTN: 30.75 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
SB: 113.75 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
BB: 118.09 BB (VPIP: 73.44, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 65)
UTG: 111.85 BB (VPIP: 7.69, PFR: 4.62, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 65)
UTG+1: 96.35 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 5.13, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 39)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9<font color='black'>♠</font> 9<font color='red'>♦</font>

fold, fold, MP raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (9.5 BB, 3 players) T<font color='red'>♥</font> 4<font color='red'>♥</font> 7<font color='black'>♣</font>
BB bets 2 BB, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Turn: (13.5 BB, 2 players) 3<font color='black'>♣</font>
BB bets 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, BB calls 6 BB

River: (31.5 BB, 2 players) 5<font color='red'>♦</font>
BB bets 15.75 BB, Hero calls 15.75 BB

BB shows T<font color='black'>♣</font> Q<font color='black'>♠</font> (One Pair, Tens)

BB wins 60 BB

 

[John A]

I want to improve my BB defense. PT4 LeakTracker gave me these data and says it's ok but i'm not happy to loose so much money at the BB.
3-bet should be bigger 3,9-14,2,
4500 hands 0,05 6 max Zoom and 500 hands 0,10 6 max Zoom.

Yeah, the loss amount is pretty gigantic, but it is a small sample. But still, it's so far outside a decent range it's likely an area you're correct in looking at. The fold to steal is too high. Leak Tracker isn't exactly the best thing to go off of honestly, and I'm not just saying that because they tried to copy our idea and implement a weak version of it. It's just literally not a good indicator to use.

Post some of your questionable BB hands and we can look at them.

 

[John A]

Thanks definitely bet sizing is a problem.

In a couple of videos noticed a few people use the betzizing buttons for cash and tournaments for different streets. i.e 33% 40% 50% 60% 70% etc.

I know its player dependant but in general what are good bet sizes for FLop Turn River against different players.i.e.

I mean, there's a lot more factors that should go into good bet sizing. I can't make that kind of break down. I talk in general about how to address some flop textures, and based on opponent, position, and equity, reach a good bet size. Bet sizing is REALLY important. It makes such a huge difference in winrate when you're thoughtful with your bet sizing.

Very general rule of thumb is in position with weak equity you can bet smaller and have smaller "probing" bet sizing, and OOP you always need to be more defintive. Strong bet sizing, or c/fing, mixing occasional CR.

The weaker your opponent, the larger your sizing needs to increase w/ value hands. The better your opponent, then the more moderate you should be on every street unless you're creating a specific plan against that opponent, ie, when I talk about betting 1/2 or less on flop and over betting turn.

 

[Figaroo2]

last 6 months compared to previous 6 months

Any comments welcome.
It all looks pretty static to be honest, I've been trying to 3bet and squeeze more but the improvements are very small.
I'm not hitting my goals at all.
How can we shake up my game to make it more aggressive? (Apart from giving me a slap!)
Should I focus on playing more 6 max?

 

[Figaroo2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNkpIDBtC2c
I'm the girl in the seat...get a hold of yourself and three bet more....

 

[Figaroo2]

Nuts or Air..

poker stars, $0.02/$0.05, $0.01 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $13.03 (260.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $11.70 (234 bb)
UTG: $2.53 (50.6 bb)
MP: $10.72 (214.4 bb)
CO: $14.55 (291 bb) Marked as an eagle on HM2. 25/17/ 43%agg in 630 hands
BTN: $5.52 (110.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

A

UTG calls $0.05, MP raises to $0.20, CO calls $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.93, 2 folds, CO calls $0.73

Flop: ($2.19) K

T

2

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.05, CO calls $1.05

Turn: ($4.29) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.05, CO calls $2.05

River: ($8.39) 3

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8,
Hero?

Spoiler

Hero calls $7.66 and is all-in
(call based on subjects aggression and he looks like he wants a fold)

Results: $23.71 pot ($0.98 rake)
Final Board: K

T

2

4

3

Hero showed A

A

and won $22.73 ($11.03 net)
CO showed 9

T

and won $0.00 (-$11.70 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

How would you play the river here?

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05, $0.01 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $13.46 (269.2 bb)
BB: $20.75 (415 bb)
UTG: $13 (260 bb)
Hero (MP): $11.87 (237.4 bb)
CO: $24.36 (487.2 bb) Marked as a mouse on HM2 loose passive 28/19/20%agg in 118 hands. WTSD 33%
BTN: $15.09 (301.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

A hearts
UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.12, CO raises to $0.35, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.18, CO calls $0.83

Flop: ($2.49) 9

T

6

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.19, CO calls $1.19

Turn: ($4.87) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.33, CO calls $2.33

River: ($9.53) Q

(2 players)
Hero??

Spoiler

for some reason I just felt this guy had JJ and would call with his high wtsd
Hero bets $7.16

Spoiler

, CO calls $7.16

Results: $23.85 pot ($0.99 rake)
Final Board: 9

T

6

2

Q

Hero showed A

A

and won $22.86 ($10.99 net)
CO mucked K

K

and lost (-$11.87 net)

 

[mottotom27]

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05, $0.01 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $13.03 (260.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $11.70 (234 bb)
UTG: $2.53 (50.6 bb)
MP: $10.72 (214.4 bb)
CO: $14.55 (291 bb) Marked as an eagle on HM2. 25/17/ 43%agg in 630 hands
BTN: $5.52 (110.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

A

UTG calls $0.05, MP raises to $0.20, CO calls $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.93, 2 folds, CO calls $0.73

Flop: ($2.19) K

T

2

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.05, CO calls $1.05

Turn: ($4.29) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.05, CO calls $2.05

River: ($8.39) 3

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8,
Hero?

Spoiler

Hero calls $7.66 and is all-in
(call based on subjects aggression and he looks like he wants a fold)

Results: $23.71 pot ($0.98 rake)
Final Board: K

T

2

4

3

Hero showed A

A

and won $22.73 ($11.03 net)
CO showed 9

T

and won $0.00 (-$11.70 net)

can't see a bluff too often here. he'd have to specifically be turning a hand like a pair into a bluff and i don't see him doing that often enough tbh. the flush draw got there too, think you got lucky here

 

[Figaroo2]

can't see a bluff too often here. he'd have to specifically be turning a hand like a pair into a bluff and i don't see him doing that often enough tbh. the flush draw got there too, think you got lucky here

Actually I didn't tank too long over this one, I think some of the keys are his preflop actions which are pretty passive for an aggressive player, the only hands that worried me were AQ AJ suited which are a really small part of his range.
As it's a 3 bet pot what's he calling with that he was happy just to call MP with initially? I know we are deep which will widen his range a bit but there are lots of middle pairs here and perhaps higher suited connectors and big aces and wide enough that the flush is fairly remote imo. Then the shove, at the time I thought it might have been a set of tens rather than a flush but doesn't make sense for me that a value hand like that shoves here. Like I said in the title it was nuts or air and there's too much possibility of air and a lot of bb in the middle.
Playing deep raises the levels of your hand reading and allows for more plays like the villain pulled here that's why I'm playing some deep stuff it's definitely a step up.

 

[mottotom27]

yea i still think it's very difficult for him to have air on the river after he calls flop and turn. what hand calls two bets that isn't at least a pair on this river? a reg probably isn't calling two streets with QJ no flush draw for instance. so if you look at the range he gets to the river with after calling flop and turn second pair is probably right at the bottom of this range. so i think this seems like an easy fold to me, cos 1) regs just aren't turning second pairs into bluffs often enough and 2) a lot of regs will be folding a lot of these second pair hands on the turn anyway (i think villain should be folding 9T no flush draw on the turn for instance)

other factors i feel are important we don't have any relevant flush blockers (A of diamonds would help a bit here) and villain's not value betting worse ever. so i think we're crushed by his shoving range tbh. sure you won the hand but i think you just happened to run into the very bottom of his range, and a part of his range he won't always show up with (often folding turn, not bluffing river). don't let the results of the hands influence how you feel about a decision. had you lost the hand i feel you would be less confident about it being a "snap call"

anyway this was just my take on the hand, and my take isn't always right, but here i feel very differently to you about this spot. i'd like to hear what john has to say about this

 

[Figaroo2]

Tom
I accept he is going to have the flush here occasionally, I was calling against 'a range' here. I also beat all his Kx top pair hands as well which you didn't note.

 

[mottotom27]

Tom
I accept he is going to have the flush here occasionally, I was calling against 'a range' here. I also beat all his Kx top pair hands as well which you didn't note.

that was what i was trying to say, i think we're crushed by his shoving range. when i said "he's not value betting worse ever" i did address that he's unlikely to shove Kx top pair hands (what would the reasoning behind it be? it's way too thin for value and completely unnecessary to turn into a bluff). there's also some argument for checking back with second pair on the river given it has showdown value vs some of the straight draws you decided to barrel with. and a lot of regs will just take the passive line of seeing a showdown with second pair on the river instead of turning pairs into bluffs. it's credible to give him one or two "pairs turned into bluff" combos but i don't think nearly enough to justify a call

i think you really underestimate how value-heavy villain's river shoving range looks like, that's just my opinion though. and also remember the range that villain reaches the river with is not the same as the range he bets with. and also is different to the range he calls a bet with, so there might be some thin value in betting smallish to get looked up by top pair, imo it's definitely a better plan than checking to induce bluffs from a range that doesn't contain many

 

[John A]

Any comments welcome.
It all looks pretty static to be honest, I've been trying to 3bet and squeeze more but the improvements are very small.
I'm not hitting my goals at all.
How can we shake up my game to make it more aggressive? (Apart from giving me a slap!)
Should I focus on playing more 6 max?

I think you need to just take a moment and ask yourself why you aren't doing what you know you need to do? Just sit with that and try and sort through the answers you get honestly.

If you know X play creates more long term profit, why aren't you executing? There's a lot of reasons, and some of them are quite valid. An example of something I extracted from a student not long ago in a very similar spot as you. They determined that they just weren't comfortable with the variance that some of the more aggressive plays produce. Even though they knew long term it was more profitable, they felt the short term variance created more potential for tilt, so it became more -EV in some ways.

That was his temperament, and perhaps you're in a similar boat. If that's the case, then it's just better to not push the smaller edges. It's something you have to do some honest self evaluation about.

That's just an example.

A couple of specific notes on your stats though, you can probably still cold call less. Everything else is mainly going to be about aggression.

 

[John A]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNkpIDBtC2c
I'm the girl in the seat...get a hold of yourself and three bet more....

Na.. don't be too hard on yourself. You're solid.

 

[John A]

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05, $0.01 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $13.03 (260.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $11.70 (234 bb)
UTG: $2.53 (50.6 bb)
MP: $10.72 (214.4 bb)
CO: $14.55 (291 bb) Marked as an eagle on HM2. 25/17/ 43%agg in 630 hands
BTN: $5.52 (110.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

A

UTG calls $0.05, MP raises to $0.20, CO calls $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.93, 2 folds, CO calls $0.73

Flop: ($2.19) K

T

2

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.05, CO calls $1.05

Turn: ($4.29) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.05, CO calls $2.05

River: ($8.39) 3

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8,
Hero?

Spoiler

Hero calls $7.66 and is all-in
(call based on subjects aggression and he looks like he wants a fold)

Results: $23.71 pot ($0.98 rake)
Final Board: K

T

2

4

3

Hero showed A

A

and won $22.73 ($11.03 net)
CO showed 9

T

and won $0.00 (-$11.70 net)

Why are you betting so small on the flop and turn? If you had bet more on both streets it would have made for an easy river shove. As played, bet $5.50 / call on the river. I'm not sure why you checked here, a ton of hands are going to check behind and he doesn't have many bluffing hands in his range here.

 

[Figaroo2]

I think you need to just take a moment and ask yourself why you aren't doing what you know you need to do? Just sit with that and try and sort through the answers you get honestly.
If you know X play creates more long term profit, why aren't you executing?
A couple of specific notes on your stats though, you can probably still cold call less. Everything else is mainly going to be about aggression.

Thanks John
I had been wondering why I'm not executing myself particularly around 3betting. When I dropped down to FR 5nl zoom recently for a pokerstars promotion I tried 3 betting widely and it worked for a while (until i got stacked) and then I just fell back into normal mode and ended with a 3 bet stat of 4.17% for 8k of hands... it still doesn't come easy even dropping down.
Where I do find it a bit easier is at 6 max, its just so obvious that everyone is opening lighter.
In terms of looking for 3 betting opportunities I don't think it helps playing full ring against tables with a majority of good solid regs at 25nl on Pokerstars which is as tough environment at that buy in as can be found online.
I've been sticking with it as a training ground as if I can beat that level consistently I know I'll be ready to step it with confidence. A lot of the decent 25nl regs also sit at the 25/50 tables anyway. .
I genuinely have been looking for more spots to 3 bet a bit lighter but they simply don't come around at full ring very much unless I were to start 3betting more from the blinds over late position raisers. I don't however feel confident double and triple barreling with air from the blinds in 3 bet pots. I keep getting my fingers burned in those sort of spots and getting called down.
In the short term I'm going to play some more 6 max and see if that helps.
I noted your comments in bet sizing in the 3 bet pots and turned it up a little tonight and stacked a reg nicely, the hand is actually a good example of what I talked about above, a squeeze from the blinds by me and getting called really light by a reg in position, fortunately I hit tptk on the flop.

 

[Figaroo2]

bigger sizing 3 bet pot

The opener in MP2 was fishy
CO is a decent reg 16/13/43 in 2100 hands
I suppose he was unlucky to be flush dominated here. I cant get the hand copied via he viewer to the clipboard so took a screenshot.
The bigger flopbet made the turn just a pot sized raise to put him all in.
I read a good quote recently...."the answers to all of your problems lie outside of your comfort zones" so true here

 

[Figaroo2]

6 max stats

Cooler alert, this guy was pretty tight, hadn't seen him play connectors at all.
Small sample but my 6 max stats from this session tonight are much better here are they not?
The hitman hud with steal% added at the end of the middle row and 4 bet% and ft4b at the end of the bottom row
This was a 5nl deep table so i lost 150bb here :-(

 

[John A]

Thanks John
I had been wondering why I'm not executing myself particularly around 3betting. When I dropped down to FR 5nl zoom recently for a Pokerstars promotion I tried 3 betting widely and it worked for a while (until i got stacked) and then I just fell back into normal mode and ended with a 3 bet stat of 4.17% for 8k of hands... it still doesn't come easy even dropping down.
Where I do find it a bit easier is at 6 max, its just so obvious that everyone is opening lighter.
In terms of looking for 3 betting opportunities I don't think it helps playing full ring against tables with a majority of good solid regs at 25nl on Pokerstars which is as tough environment at that buy in as can be found online.
I've been sticking with it as a training ground as if I can beat that level consistently I know I'll be ready to step it with confidence. A lot of the decent 25nl regs also sit at the 25/50 tables anyway. .
I genuinely have been looking for more spots to 3 bet a bit lighter but they simply don't come around at full ring very much unless I were to start 3betting more from the blinds over late position raisers. I don't however feel confident double and triple barreling with air from the blinds in 3 bet pots. I keep getting my fingers burned in those sort of spots and getting called down.
In the short term I'm going to play some more 6 max and see if that helps.
I noted your comments in bet sizing in the 3 bet pots and turned it up a little tonight and stacked a reg nicely, the hand is actually a good example of what I talked about above, a squeeze from the blinds by me and getting called really light by a reg in position, fortunately I hit tptk on the flop.

Yeah, it's going to take a lot of conscious practice. If it helps, just break down the math of spots you're missing also, so you can see what your EV could have been if you've made that play. X% of time opponent folds. Y% of time, I use position and steal the pot. Z% of time I out flop my opponent, etc.. If you're really seeing those situations clearly, then it just comes down to a more psychological reason for not executing. We all have spots we miss for various psychological reasons.

And of course, at full ring, these opportunities to 3-bet will be less. And the better your opponents, the less profitable it becomes. So you just have to find that perfect grove and hit it with confidence.

 

[John A]

The opener in MP2 was fishy
CO is a decent reg 16/13/43 in 2100 hands
I suppose he was unlucky to be flush dominated here. I cant get the hand copied via he viewer to the clipboard so took a screenshot.
The bigger flopbet made the turn just a pot sized raise to put him all in.
I read a good quote recently...."the answers to all of your problems lie outside of your comfort zones" so true here

OOP on the turn here I think I actually bet really really small (like $4 small) or check the turn. I mean there's not much worse he's calling with if you shove. Maybe JJ, and KQ for this kind of player seems like a bit of a stretch. He's not folding AA/KK. But betting small allows him to possibly shove over still with some draws or just call and you can check river and pick off some bluffs. There's really no river card you're folding on at that point.

 

[Figaroo2]

OOP on the turn here I think I actually bet really really small (like $4 small) or check the turn. I mean there's not much worse he's calling with if you shove. Maybe JJ, and KQ for this kind of player seems like a bit of a stretch. He's not folding AA/KK. But betting small allows him to possibly shove over still with some draws or just call and you can check river and pick off some bluffs. There's really no river card you're folding on at that point.

Not much KK AA here flatting the fish, maybe sometimes to trap a squeezer in the blinds.
When I was reviewing this I noted that I had overbet the turn on him the round before when he was button and I was in the BB.
The calling with KJ looks like it might have been a reaction to that.
Hes got TT+ and lots of AK here for a gut shot, if he has a high heart hes sticking around on the flop.
I understand the rationale of checking here OOP especially as I picked up the nutflush draw.
I certainly though didn't want to give him a cheap shot at a heart or AK gutshot on the turn. I didn't consider betting small here for that reason but if we do that or check and a heart comes on the end and he shoves its a big cooler card for me .
I looked at half pot but decided it left too little behind, if we bet that we are committed and if he calls so is he, so its check or shove for me. With the extra flush outs I decided to shove.

 

[John A]

Not much KK AA here flatting the fish, maybe sometimes to trap a squeezer in the blinds.
When I was reviewing this I noted that I had overbet the turn on him the round before when he was button and I was in the BB.
The calling with KJ looks like it might have been a reaction to that.
Hes got TT+ and lots of AK here for a gut shot, if he has a high heart hes sticking around on the flop.
I understand the rationale of checking here OOP especially as I picked up the nutflush draw.
I certainly though didn't want to give him a cheap shot at a heart or AK gutshot on the turn. I didn't consider betting small here for that reason but if we do that or check and a heart comes on the end and he shoves its a big cooler card for me .
I looked at half pot but decided it left too little behind, if we bet that we are committed and if he calls so is he, so its check or shove for me. With the extra flush outs I decided to shove.

I understand why you did what you did of course. I'm just letting you know what I'd do. If you shoved on him recently, then maybe his calling range would get wider here and include some Tx and other mid pairs like 99.

As far as checking or betting small on the turn though, I think you missed my point. You're not folding anything on the river, so it doesn't matter what hits. And once you "give up" on the turn and river, even tighter players will bluff the river a ton. So combine that w/ your equity, etc... I think it's a slightly higher EV play than shoving, if you're in a wind tunnel. If you have recent history like you said of over shoving, then that can be the better line. I don't think over shoving the turn is a bad play regardless. We're just looking for the highest EV play though.

 

[or3o1990]

Sorry I haven't been contributing guys! I got a new job and between that and grinding the tables it's been taking a lot out of me. It's been affecting my game a bit too but what can you do?

I bought the leak buster and I'm finding it to be extremely useful so far. Its a coach that I can actually afford! It's helping to keep me on task while i'm grinding which is nice. So props on yet another great product John!

What do you guys think about this spot? At the time I thought the villains most likely holding was an over pair but in hindsight jacks are unlikely and so are aces and kings would probably reraise pre(although players at 100nl are mostly trappy with big pairs). I didn't really give any thought to the idea of a set here. Although it makes sense..

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 117.05 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 4.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 41.43, PFR: 12.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 71)
SB: 115.95 BB (VPIP: 16.00, PFR: 16.00, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 25)
BB: 19 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 5.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
UTG: 38 BB (VPIP: 10.53, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
Hero (UTG+1): 208.53 BB
MP: 49.97 BB (VPIP: 10.17, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 59)
MP+1: 163.1 BB (VPIP: 37.50, PFR: 3.13, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 32)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='black'>♣</font>

UTG calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls 3 BB

Flop: (13.5 BB, 3 players) T<font color='black'>♣</font> 8<font color='black'>♣</font> 9<font color='red'>♥</font>
UTG checks, Hero bets 7 BB, CO raises to 16 BB, fold, Hero raises to 35 BB, CO raises to 113.05 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 78.05 BB

Turn: (239.6 BB, 2 players) 6<font color='black'>♠</font>

River: (239.6 BB, 2 players) J<font color='black'>♠</font>

CO shows T<font color='red'>♦</font> T<font color='red'>♥</font> (Three of a Kind, Tens)
(Pre 54%, Flop 61%, Turn 70%)
Hero shows J<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='black'>♣</font> (One Pair, Jacks)
(Pre 46%, Flop 39%, Turn 30%)
CO wins 236.6 BB


Normally I would play these spots a little more passively and just call. I decided not to because I was OOP and I had a ton of outs and I knew it was hard to be too bad here. In cash games I'm always more inclined to take the passive route but in a tourney I would jam here every time. I was on the other end of the same hand a bit later. Where I had a set of nines and the villain had the nut flush draw and it ended up playing out the exact same way. The draw pushed the action.

 

[Figaroo2]

Looking at his passive stats, I think his 25/4 vpip/pfr is a good indication that he has something when he raises your cbet, so hmm yeah only a flopped straight or a set is getting it in here after you 4bet. As its a raised pot pre QJ or the weaker end seems unlikely though.
Tough to get away from once he shoves and you have so much invested, the problem is that some of your outs will give him a boat which is something to consider when drawing to a flush.
As you state I think it correct to play it more passively here on the flop.
Yesterday I had QQ on a QJT flop in a 4 bet pot against a passive player who shipped the flop, I'm thinking like it must be AK, its obvious but I simply cant fold in a spot like that.

 

[John A]

Sorry I haven't been contributing guys! I got a new job and between that and grinding the tables it's been taking a lot out of me. It's been affecting my game a bit too but what can you do?

I bought the leak buster and I'm finding it to be extremely useful so far. Its a coach that I can actually afford! It's helping to keep me on task while i'm grinding which is nice. So props on yet another great product John!

Awesome, I'm glad you're enjoying leak buster. We have some cool new features coming to it here soon. We've had a minor development setback that I'm hoping will be resolved soon, but there's some cool new stuff around the bend for it.

As far as the hand, in a single raised pot on this type of texture I'd typically check the flop in a sandwiched position. This flop will hit a ton of people's ranges, and you'll have direct odds to call on pretty much any bet if the CO does bet. If I was in position, I'd be inclined to bet much more often. But if the flop action goes check check... no biggie. If CO bets 2/3rds, you give the limper a chance to come into the pot and give you great odds to just call. Even if they don't, you still have great odds with no chance of being blown off your hand.

After he raises, I'd still just call. It's ok to take a passive line here. If the pot is MW and he's raises two people, then you're fold equity begins to really shrink. Also, this is one of the few justified times where if you do hit your hand, you have some great implied odds because your opponent almost always has two pair + and will pay off if you hit.