Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[or3o1990]

Well not technically a checkraise as I haven't checked as I'm in position.
This is more a general question of getting value versus protecting our equity. Not only against different player types but also board textures.
here he is an aggressive player who triple barrels 33%. As soon as I threw in the raise I regretted the sizing as too big & turning my hand face up, here I could just min raise or call him down and let him hang himself..
With this flop however there is a good chance he barrels with hands that have a fair amount of equity with pair gutshot combos so do we protect what we have by raising hoping he has something to come along with or do we just call and risk a scare card and facing a shove with say 4 to straight out there.
Overall thinking about this one away from the table the absence of any flush draws leads me to a call or smaller raise on the turn. I think my sizing would be fine on a wetter board.

Ahh, my mistake. I'm a noob at hud stats but if he folds to 3bets often maybe that would have been the better line because he also barrels so consistently.

It doesn't matter how often you win though, again, you're not playing limit poker. The action isn't stopping on the flop. The only thing that matters in no-limit in terms of pre-flop odds are, can I win more than -100bb/100 if I make this call (unless you're all in or close to it where you know how much more is going in postflop)? Let's hypothetically say you win 24% of the time, but nearly all of that 24% you only win 8 bbs per. The remaining 76% you lose 50 bbs on average. In that case yes, you made the right call pre-flop because you won the hand more than the pre-flop odds dictated, but how much $ did you win ?

Thanks, I need practice on this lol. Had to refer to the WB to set it up..

(.24x8)-(.76x50)=-36.08bb?

You mentioned a walk before you run approach. Does that mean that If you're skilled at hand reading a playing post flop that these spot then become profitable? Hand reading is my weak link, so I guess I'll be folding the 10 5h from the big bling.

It was 400NL on there, but I'm not even playing that high on there right now. I've been keeping a smaller amount online and mostly playing 100nl lately.

With the bovada card catcher, running it with PT4 is much easier. The hUD doesn't auto come up in HM2, and in MTT's it's a little hard because you need to stop the table finder and re-start it when you get moved. I'm still trying to see if there's a reasonable work around for this.

And as far as GTO, I'd recommend checking out some of the new stuff we have here. The videos are top notch at really teaching GTO in 3-bet pots and c-bet defense, etc... It's also pretty cheap to get tons of access to GTO solutions at your finger tips.

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/GTO-Strategy-Packs/

__________________

I was having a couple of issues with the catcher and auto posting the blinds yesterday. I cleared my cache and cookies so hopefully everything will all run a little smoother today. Can you recommend a HUD setup I can run?

I'll definitely be looking into those strategy packs!

 

[Figaroo2]

It doesn't get much better (for me) nasty cooler for the villain

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25 (100 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $20.82 (83.3 bb)
UTG+2: $37.30 (149.2 bb) 25/15 37%agg in 205 hands, loose a tad fishy
MP1: $5.87 (23.5 bb)
MP2: $26.34 (105.4 bb)
MP3: $25 (100 bb)
CO: $21.23 (84.9 bb)
Hero (BTN): $58.14 (232.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q

Q

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.50, 4 folds, Hero raises to $2, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.35) T

Q

4

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $3.11, UTG+2 calls $3.11

Turn: ($10.57) 3

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $7.56, UTG+2 calls $7.56

River: ($25.69) 5

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $24.63 and is all-in, Hero calls $24.63

Results: $74.95 pot ($2.00 rake)
Final Board: T

Q

4

3

5

UTG+2 showed T

T

and lost (-$37.30 net)
Hero showed Q

Q

and won $72.95 ($35.65 net)

what a perfect board run out

 

[Figaroo2]

Tricky multiway sandwiched hand

Would you still bet the turn here? I prefer pot control.
Any recommendations for handling the river with the reg still to act?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $19.76 (79 bb)
BB: $34.58 (138.3 bb)
UTG+2: $26.80 (107.2 bb)
MP1: $23.78 (95.1 bb) FISH
Hero (MP2): $32.45 (129.8 bb)
MP3: $32.01 (128 bb) ABC REG a little loose 21/17/34 in 389 hands
CO: $30.09 (120.4 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A

A

UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.50, Hero raises to $1.85, MP3 calls $1.85, 4 folds, MP1 calls $1.35

Flop: ($5.90) 8

9

2

(3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $2.81, MP3 calls $2.81, MP1 calls $2.81

Turn: ($14.33) 4

(3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks

River: ($14.33) 5

(3 players)
MP1 bets $5,

Spoiler

Hero calls $5, MP3 folds

Results: $24.33 pot ($1.09 rake)
Final Board: 8

9

2

4

5

MP1 showed J

J

and lost (-$9.66 net)
Hero showed A

A

and won $23.24 ($13.58 net)
MP3 mucked and lost (-$4.66 net)

 

[or3o1990]

I hate getting bluffed! But I feel like the villain did a good job of repping aces or kings. What do you guys think?

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 161.47 BB (VPIP: 20.37, PFR: 12.96, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 55)
MP: 96.3 BB (VPIP: 6.67, PFR: 2.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)
Hero (MP+1): 209.78 BB
CO: 94.4 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
BTN: 88.25 BB (VPIP: 17.11, PFR: 1.32, 3Bet Preflop: 3.03, Hands: 76)
SB: 100.6 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
BB: 80.4 BB (VPIP: 13.73, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 51)
UTG: 25.8 BB (VPIP: 25.32, PFR: 6.33, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 80)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q<font color='black'>♣</font> Q<font color='red'>♥</font>

fold, UTG+1 raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG+1 raises to 23.5 BB, Hero calls 14.5 BB

Flop: (48.5 BB, 2 players) 3<font color='red'>♥</font> 9<font color='red'>♦</font> T<font color='black'>♣</font>
UTG+1 bets 25.25 BB, Hero calls 25.25 BB

Turn: (99 BB, 2 players) 7<font color='black'>♠</font>
UTG+1 bets 49.5 BB, fold

UTG+1 wins 96 BB

 

[or3o1990]

Would you still bet the turn here? I prefer pot control.
Any recommendations for handling the river with the reg still to act?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $19.76 (79 bb)
BB: $34.58 (138.3 bb)
UTG+2: $26.80 (107.2 bb)
MP1: $23.78 (95.1 bb) FISH
Hero (MP2): $32.45 (129.8 bb)
MP3: $32.01 (128 bb) ABC REG a little loose 21/17/34 in 389 hands
CO: $30.09 (120.4 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A

A

UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.50, Hero raises to $1.85, MP3 calls $1.85, 4 folds, MP1 calls $1.35

Flop: ($5.90) 8

9

2

(3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $2.81, MP3 calls $2.81, MP1 calls $2.81

Turn: ($14.33) 4

(3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks

River: ($14.33) 5

(3 players)
MP1 bets $5,

Spoiler

Hero calls $5, MP3 folds

Results: $24.33 pot ($1.09 rake)
Final Board: 8

9

2

4

5

MP1 showed J

J

and lost (-$9.66 net)
Hero showed A

A

and won $23.24 ($13.58 net)
MP3 mucked and lost (-$4.66 net)

I understand why you want to pot control. Your probably curious as to why the heck these guys are sticking around here right? I would be. But I think because of the heart draw on the turn I bet again.

 

[mottotom27]

I agree, and talk about this a lot. I take a walk before you run approach. I try and be very systematic in what I lay out and when I teach what. People are motivated by success. If you're "supposed" to do something, and you're continualy losing, it's going to be difficult to motivate yourself to continue.

If you're winning, and you're trying to actively move up, then start adding more CC hands from the blinds and work on your blind defense. But you want to make sure you're not doing this before you've worked out and understood a pre-flop game. You understand post flop betting sizing in most common spots, and how to adjust to table dynamics and image. There's a lot of things you want to build on first.

Optimally in 6-max, it makes more sense to play about 27-29% of your hands, but do you recommend that to people first starting out? No, because they'll lose and then they won't continue on to learn. Eventually you start adding more and more hands to someone's game.

what you're saying makes a lot of sense actually. when i moved up to 10nl i received advice from some other regs and a coach that i was "way too tight" from the blinds. so i started opening up quite a bit more but i defended passively by flatting instead of 3betting mostly because that's what i'd seen other people do. then i noticed my losses get worse from the blinds and spoke again to other regs and they said they defend wider still and told me i ought to be defending 50% of hands to a button steal, and they say i can defend any two suited cards vs a SB raise. so now i'm at the point where i'm defending uber wide and probably not aggressively enough either (because i'm trying to be really "polarised" and so i flat a bit too much)

so i thought my losses getting worse from the blinds was due to still not defending enough. it's only occurred to me now that i should maybe settle for suboptimal blind play if it's gonna make me more money, since admittedly my blind losses were 20bb/100 better at 5nl where i was playing a lot tighter. i also think i can resteal a bit more since my resteal % is low (only 6% vs BTN) and so i can maybe turn some of my suited hands i currently was thinking are "strong enough to flat with" into 3bet bluffs.

it was hard for me to accept what you're saying given that other regs and a coach told me pretty much the exact opposite, but i think you're right.

 

[John A]

what you're saying makes a lot of sense actually. when i moved up to 10nl i received advice from some other regs and a coach that i was "way too tight" from the blinds. so i started opening up quite a bit more but i defended passively by flatting instead of 3betting mostly because that's what i'd seen other people do. then i noticed my losses get worse from the blinds and spoke again to other regs and they said they defend wider still and told me i ought to be defending 50% of hands to a button steal, and they say i can defend any two suited cards vs a SB raise. so now i'm at the point where i'm defending uber wide and probably not aggressively enough either (because i'm trying to be really "polarised" and so i flat a bit too much)

so i thought my losses getting worse from the blinds was due to still not defending enough. it's only occurred to me now that i should maybe settle for suboptimal blind play if it's gonna make me more money, since admittedly my blind losses were 20bb/100 better at 5nl where i was playing a lot tighter. i also think i can resteal a bit more since my resteal % is low (only 6% vs BTN) and so i can maybe turn some of my suited hands i currently was thinking are "strong enough to flat with" into 3bet bluffs.

it was hard for me to accept what you're saying given that other regs and a coach told me pretty much the exact opposite, but i think you're right.

Well, let me put your mind at ease at first and let you know there's a LOT of bad advice out there. I read it all the time. And in general, people have a lot more leaks in this areas than they are aware of. I've coached a lot of winning players, some of whom are popular coaches now, and when I've gone into blind play there's been a lot of misconceptions in thinking and approach from my experience.

But in general, it's good to begin to experiment and widen your defense range. When you do though, you have to come in with the mentality that you're going to have to make some plays occasionally, and not play straight forward all the time and especially not passively.

As a side note, I can tell you without even seeing one training video from another site, what the current poker meme's are. The trends and changes are so obvious. It's was clear that defending your blind with a wide range of suited hands was advised, and I watched people go from being too tight, to too wide in certain spots. Eventually these patterns even out again and people come back to a more reasonable range, but it happens all the time with every new major "finding" in poker. You can take 3-betting as another example. People rarely did it, then this became something people weren't doing enough, and then people started 3-betting like crazy, and now it's normalized again.

So if I were you, I'd look at what hands you are defending with profitably, and which ones are on the marginal area for you, and start defending a little more with the ones that are just out of that profitable range so you can look to expand your profitability with a few more hands, and not going crazy all at once.

Again, walk before you run approach is the best way imho.

 

[mottotom27]

Well, let me put your mind at ease at first and let you know there's a LOT of bad advice out there. I read it all the time. And in general, people have a lot more leaks in this areas than they are aware of. I've coached a lot of winning players, some of whom are popular coaches now, and when I've gone into blind play there's been a lot of misconceptions in thinking and approach from my experience.

But in general, it's good to begin to experiment and widen your defense range. When you do though, you have to come in with the mentality that you're going to have to make some plays occasionally, and not play straight forward all the time and especially not passively.

As a side note, I can tell you without even seeing one training video from another site, what the current poker meme's are. The trends and changes are so obvious. It's was clear that defending your blind with a wide range of suited hands was advised, and I watched people go from being too tight, to too wide in certain spots. Eventually these patterns even out again and people come back to a more reasonable range, but it happens all the time with every new major "finding" in poker. You can take 3-betting as another example. People rarely did it, then this became something people weren't doing enough, and then people started 3-betting like crazy, and now it's normalized again.

So if I were you, I'd look at what hands you are defending with profitably, and which ones are on the marginal area for you, and start defending a little more with the ones that are just out of that profitable range so you can look to expand your profitability with a few more hands, and not going crazy all at once.

Again, walk before you run approach is the best way imho.

thanks for explaining this, it's helpful advice and i'm definitely gonna make some adjustments.

as a side note, whilst i'm cold calling too much right now, i'm probably actually restealing not as often as i should be. my overall resteal % (vs BTN and CO) from the big blind is 6% and from the SB 9%, both of which i feel could be higher. i'd like to check these stats in leakbuster but unfortunately it isn't working for me atm, keeps freezing and stuff. any idea what the problem might be?

also how should i go about increasing my resteal %? i feel one obvious approach would be to turn some of my weaker hands i'm currently flatting into 3bet bluffs (like the suited queens and kings) and simply fold the hands that aren't that playable (like weak offsuit aces that i feel obliged to defend). secondly i could widen my value 3bet range a bit vs villains who open wide on the button and defend 3bets with a wide range. and third is a idea which i'm unsure about, which is 3betting hands which are considered "strong enough to flat" but also "play well in 3bet pots" like maybe some suited aces and suited connectors...

do you think i'm approaching this whole restealing concept with the right mindset? i understand you might delve into more detail about this in your article on preflop play, but it would be nice to get a direct answer to my questions since it's something i need to really work on.

 

[Figaroo2]

I hate getting bluffed! But I feel like the villain did a good job of repping aces or kings. What do you guys think?
Turn: (99 BB, 2 players) 7<font color='black'>♠</font>
UTG+1 bets 49.5 BB, fold
UTG+1 wins 96 BB

I think this is a reasonable time to extract yourself from the hand. I went through a phase, recently actually, of calling these hands down because "there is plenty of AK AQ in their range and they might be barreling" and whilst there is, you have to weigh all the evidence provided by his stats, in particular how aggressive they are overall as well as the bet sizing to make the judgement to call down. It cost me a lot of buy ins before I realised that most players only 3&4 bet and double barrel with very strong holdings. For every time I caught someone bluff barreling I was losing 2-3 stacks to guys who had it.
We do after all only have a one pair hand which is easily beaten and personally if im going to stack off here with only 1 pair I need a good reason to believe I'm ahead.
Here we are up against an early position opener who has 4 bet who previously hasn't even 3 bet. He has given me no reason to think I might win this hand, and even if he has AK he can still back into it on the river. I fold

 

[or3o1990]

I think this is a reasonable time to extract yourself from the hand. I went through a phase, recently actually, of calling these hands down because "there is plenty of AK AQ in their range and they might be barreling" and whilst there is, you have to weigh all the evidence provided by his stats, in particular how aggressive they are overall as well as the bet sizing to make the judgement to call down. It cost me a lot of buy ins before I realised that most players only 3&4 bet and double barrel with very strong holdings. For every time I caught someone bluff barreling I was losing 2-3 stacks to guys who had it.
We do after all only have a one pair hand which is easily beaten and personally if im going to stack off here with only 1 pair I need a good reason to believe I'm ahead.
Here we are up against an early position opener who has 4 bet who previously hasn't even 3 bet. He has given me no reason to think I might win this hand, and even if he has AK he can still back into it on the river. I fold

This had been on my mind since last night but i feel a bit better now. But even while reviewing it i agree with what you said. On the turn i have no confidence in my single pair being ahead..

Yesterday i ran premium pairs into better pairs three times and i didn't want this to be the fourth time. I think our stack sizes had some influence on my decision as well. I didnt want to risk 166bb with my over pair.. I think 3 betting again on the flop would have won me the hand this time. but if i do that i cannot fold and the result is the same as if i shove turn here. In this case im ahead but in most im not..

Do you have any input on the stack size issue here? In general at what point will you top your stack off? And at what point is it advisable to leave and buy back in your opinion?

 

[mottotom27]

AA hand

Would you still bet the turn here? I prefer pot control.

yea i would keep betting i feel there's a lot of value here, don't see a reason to pot control.

I think this is a reasonable time to extract yourself from the hand. I went through a phase, recently actually, of calling these hands down because "there is plenty of AK AQ in their range and they might be barreling" and whilst there is, you have to weigh all the evidence provided by his stats to call down

yea i went through this phase too, and i totally agree. and sometimes you'll fold the best hand but even their bluffs can have a lot of equity vs QQ like AK with a flush draw. on this particular board there will be even less bluffs given no possible flush draws on the board. also my standard play preflop here is to flat vs UTG+1 with QQ but you may have had a reason not to

 

[Figaroo2]

Do you have any input on the stack size issue here? In general at what point will you top your stack off? And at what point is it advisable to leave and buy back in your opinion?

Well that depends on how comfortable you are playing deep I'm only just starting to play a little more deep stack stuff, inspired by Duggs deep cash thread, he'd be much better placed to answer this. Deep stacks is just a whole new level up from 100bb play.
This weekend I ran well on the 100bb 25nl tables and had a two tables with around 400bb on them, I find it intimidates other weaker players who see the big stack and often just get out of your way, so as a result I don't tend to top off.
I noticed the same thing on the zoom tables on pokerstars as well, once I was up to 250bb they just prefer not to mess with you.

I did post somewhere recently something that I had re-read from a Harrington cash games book and that was "the more strength you can get your opponent to show in response to your betting and raising the more confident you can be in letting the hand go later"
On this QQ hand I think the fact that you 3 bet and got 4 bet gave you the information you needed in order to let the hand go. 3betting definitely makes the hand easier to read than just flatting and check calling.
Personally I would have flatted here as well (as Tom), if you 3bet from MP over an EP player you are making your hand pretty face up.
But you can also flat as that keeps the pot smaller, it is simply a matter of taste.

 

[or3o1990]

Personally I would have flatted here as well (as Tom), if you 3bet from MP over an EP player you are making your hand pretty face up.
But you can also flat as that keeps the pot smaller, it is simply a matter of taste.

__________________

Ok, I troll dugg's thread from time to time. I agree with what you say about people not wanting to mess with you when you have a bigger stack. I play against annons so when I see someone with more than 3 buy ins its usually safe to assume they know what they're doing until they prove otherwise. I don't mind playing deep usually but in a tough spot like this I was uncomfortable for sure. If I had only 100bb then I'm pot committed after the flop. That would have benefited me this time but I'm growing confident that I didn't choose the best line here regardless of my stack size.

I don't like just calling but I'm starting to see what both of you are saying for sure. I raised him for a few reasons. He'd raised two hands in a row before that one. I had a strong hand and because if I just call at least two more people behind me want to tag along and I don't want any Ax or Kx seeing a flop for cheap. I can see that this indeed turns my hand face up here. If I was in late position or in the blinds it would have played it differently maybe. The more likely it is to be heads up the more inclined I am to just call. I'm kind of just realizing how backwards this seems. Because if I 3bet in position or from the blinds my 3b range is wider and my hand more disguised.. It's something for me to think about while I do some review tonight.

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[John A]

thanks for explaining this, it's helpful advice and i'm definitely gonna make some adjustments.

as a side note, whilst i'm cold calling too much right now, i'm probably actually restealing not as often as i should be. my overall resteal % (vs BTN and CO) from the big blind is 6% and from the SB 9%, both of which i feel could be higher. i'd like to check these stats in leakbuster but unfortunately it isn't working for me atm, keeps freezing and stuff. any idea what the problem might be?

You're welcome. I hope we're in this thread to take a step by step approach and really learn this game and support each other.

What version of LB are you using? I haven't heard of any known freezing issues. Is this the PT or HM version?

also how should i go about increasing my resteal %? i feel one obvious approach would be to turn some of my weaker hands i'm currently flatting into 3bet bluffs (like the suited queens and kings) and simply fold the hands that aren't that playable (like weak offsuit aces that i feel obliged to defend). secondly i could widen my value 3bet range a bit vs villains who open wide on the button and defend 3bets with a wide range. and third is a idea which i'm unsure about, which is 3betting hands which are considered "strong enough to flat" but also "play well in 3bet pots" like maybe some suited aces and suited connectors...

do you think i'm approaching this whole restealing concept with the right mindset? i understand you might delve into more detail about this in your article on preflop play, but it would be nice to get a direct answer to my questions since it's something i need to really work on.

I think polarizing your re-steal range is an ok approach. I personally don't think the overall best approach is to have a static mindset about what you want to do. I've tried to talk about this a lot, but the biggest difference I can see between myself and winning players I coach is the dynamic adjustments happening. I know these take effort, but if you watch or listen to top players, you're going to hear this going through their head all the time. It's a constant narrative about what a player is potentially up to, and how to manipulate the situation in your favor short term and long term.

What I mean simply is don't lock yourself into just one approach. There's going to be more profitable times to 3-bet defend with a polarized range and a non-polarized range. Some of those CC ranges will also change based on the situation. The very first thing you want to do when facing a potential steal is:

1) Look at stats... duh. How much is this person stealing, but more importantly, how much are they folding, and how aggressive are they post flop. So say someone has a high steal %, a middle of the road fold to 3-bet, but they are pretty passive posflop. You can then widen some of your polarized 3-betting range into a CC range.

2) What's your recent image? I think more so than at other stakes, micro players will over adjust to recent flurries in action. If you've 3-bet a couple of times in the last couple of hands, you may want to tighten the bottom range of your polarized 3-betting range and turn those into folds.

3) When in SB, is there a fish in the BB? Even though you'll be OOP against 2 players, keeping a fish in with some nice suited cards or big Axs hands can be profitable, especially if your opponent isn't a good reg.

4) What player type are you against? Take the whole stat range, and what you've observed and literally give your opponent a persona. If you fold here with a marginal hand, might there be another better spot to exploit them?

I hope this helps a bit.

 

[John A]

Ok, I troll dugg's thread from time to time. I agree with what you say about people not wanting to mess with you when you have a bigger stack. I play against annons so when I see someone with more than 3 buy ins its usually safe to assume they know what they're doing until they prove otherwise. I don't mind playing deep usually but in a tough spot like this I was uncomfortable for sure. If I had only 100bb then I'm pot committed after the flop. That would have benefited me this time but I'm growing confident that I didn't choose the best line here regardless of my stack size.

Which hand are you guys talking about? Your QQ hand?

 

[or3o1990]

Yeah.

 

[mottotom27]

I think polarizing your re-steal range is an ok approach. I personally don't think the overall best approach is to have a static mindset about what you want to do. I've tried to talk about this a lot, but the biggest difference I can see between myself and winning players I coach is the dynamic adjustments happening.

I hope this helps a bit.

yea it does i mean i know that i need to be more dynamic with the way i play, but knowing that is of course easier than doing it in practice on a regular basis. right now i'm far too static in the way i play, like i know i should be constantly adjusting to my opponents and i do sometimes, but not enough. when playing zoom and multitabling sometimes i'm just like "ok well Q8s is in my flatting range blind vs button" and quickly call without even bothering to check how often villain is opening. similarly i'll look at two rags on the button and insta fold without checking to see if both blinds are really nitty.

in order to have enough time to really focus and treat every decision i make in a maximally exploitative fashion i would need to play only one zoom table (the equivalent of about 3-4 reg tables) but i've tried this before and get bored very quickly, and nowhere near enough volume. so i've resorted to playing more tables and settling for a B game with "ok but not great" decisions but much higher volume.

another issue i have with exploiting people's stats is knowing how far to take it. for instance, if i'm UTG and have 3 nits to my left and 2 whales in the blinds, obviously i ought to open wider but do i open as wide as K4s UTG or K9s? If my default UTG opening range is 14% does it increase to 18% in this situation or 28%?

same with button vs blinds.

So say someone has a high steal %, a middle of the road fold to 3-bet

in this situation where F3B doesn't change and RFI increases, i'm thinking i can 3bet for value wider (since they are forced to defend to 3bets with weaker range) and also flat with a wider range (since they are opening a wider range). but say we have one of these players with twice the RFI on the button as another. does this mean we should double our 3bet value range, or just add in one or two hands? should we double the % we flat with, or just add in an extra 5% of hands?

it's these questions i don't know the answer to. we know we make exploitative adjustments, but how far do we go with them?

I haven't heard of any known freezing issues. Is this the PT or HM version?

i think this actually might be something to do with our internet proxy. it works fine when i use 3g

 

[Figaroo2]

Recently I have noticed nova players moving in at 25nl on Stars and displaying theirStatus which none of the other regs usually do. These are good players as well things must be getting tough higher up.
I have noticed the quality of play has improved quite a bit at 25 & 10nl in the last six months

 

[John A]

yea it does i mean i know that i need to be more dynamic with the way i play, but knowing that is of course easier than doing it in practice on a regular basis. right now i'm far too static in the way i play, like i know i should be constantly adjusting to my opponents and i do sometimes, but not enough. when playing zoom and multitabling sometimes i'm just like "ok well Q8s is in my flatting range blind vs button" and quickly call without even bothering to check how often villain is opening. similarly i'll look at two rags on the button and insta fold without checking to see if both blinds are really nitty.


in order to have enough time to really focus and treat every decision i make in a maximally exploitative fashion i would need to play only one zoom table (the equivalent of about 3-4 reg tables) but i've tried this before and get bored very quickly, and nowhere near enough volume. so i've resorted to playing more tables and settling for a B game with "ok but not great" decisions but much higher volume.

You'd be the first person in the world who knows what they should do, but doesn't always do it.

How many tables on average are you playing with this B game plan? One temp adjustment you could make is cut down on the number of tables, and really focus on reads and dynamic adjustments. Give yourself some time to really watch the action. As you get better at this you can add more tables back in. It's really very much like lifting weights for your observation skills. You just have to get in there and do it, and eventually you'll notice it gets easier and more fluid.

another issue i have with exploiting people's stats is knowing how far to take it. for instance, if i'm UTG and have 3 nits to my left and 2 whales in the blinds, obviously i ought to open wider but do i open as wide as K4s UTG or K9s? If my default UTG opening range is 14% does it increase to 18% in this situation or 28%?

same with button vs blinds.

Sure. I think everyone has this issue because it's a learning process. Poker is too dynamic for anyone to say X play is always correct. That's where the famous poker analysis of... "it depends" always comes in. BUT, since you recognize a situation you need to open wider, just start with the next 5-10% of your range than you normally do. The most important thing is recognizing the situation, and then if you're not sure about the play, post here.

in this situation where F3B doesn't change and RFI increases, i'm thinking i can 3bet for value wider (since they are forced to defend to 3bets with weaker range) and also flat with a wider range (since they are opening a wider range). but say we have one of these players with twice the RFI on the button as another. does this mean we should double our 3bet value range, or just add in one or two hands? should we double the % we flat with, or just add in an extra 5% of hands?

it's these questions i don't know the answer to. we know we make exploitative adjustments, but how far do we go with them?

i think this actually might be something to do with our internet proxy. it works fine when i use 3g

Well, again, recognize these situations in real time, and then post the hands. That will go a long way because we can look at it, break down the math, etc..

In terms of exact % of range, again the most important thing will be the difference in fold to 3-bet and post flop aggression. I know you said nothing changes in terms of F3B, but it's a little abstract still. I think the bottom line is we can punch in his range and an acceptable 3-bet and cold calling range after. In general, just know you need to widen this as it's never going to be precise. It doesn't mean exact double because it depends on what type of hands he's opening. That's difficult to estimate unless you have a read that helps like, he loves to open suited gappers. Then we could take stronger hands out of his range like Q6s etc.. and add in more 75s type hands. If we don't have a read then we can assume a mixed strategy and look at some numbers.

On a side note I've been doing a lot of analysis on pre-flop play this week. I'm re-examining some of my own approach and looking at new data also. It may take a little while, but I'm going to write out a lot of what I find to share with you guys. I'm looking a lot at blind defense right now since it's been brought up on here just recently too. Most of it confirms what I've been saying about how things play, but I'm going to post up some raw numbers of common spots, Ie, button open and BB/SB defense.

 

[John A]

I hate getting bluffed! But I feel like the villain did a good job of repping aces or kings. What do you guys think?

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 161.47 BB (VPIP: 20.37, PFR: 12.96, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 55)
MP: 96.3 BB (VPIP: 6.67, PFR: 2.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)
Hero (MP+1): 209.78 BB
CO: 94.4 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
BTN: 88.25 BB (VPIP: 17.11, PFR: 1.32, 3Bet Preflop: 3.03, Hands: 76)
SB: 100.6 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
BB: 80.4 BB (VPIP: 13.73, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 51)
UTG: 25.8 BB (VPIP: 25.32, PFR: 6.33, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 80)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q<font color='black'>♣</font> Q<font color='red'>♥</font>

fold, UTG+1 raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG+1 raises to 23.5 BB, Hero calls 14.5 BB

Flop: (48.5 BB, 2 players) 3<font color='red'>♥</font> 9<font color='red'>♦</font> T<font color='black'>♣</font>
UTG+1 bets 25.25 BB, Hero calls 25.25 BB

Turn: (99 BB, 2 players) 7<font color='black'>♠</font>
UTG+1 bets 49.5 BB, fold

UTG+1 wins 96 BB

I think you played it well. You don't have enough info from what I can see to expect your opponent to go nuts with a bluff here on a rainbow board. You also can't expect him to 4-bet and bet the turn with JJ. Because you're deep, his range is going to be wider here, but after only 50 hands and a tighter stat range, I think it's a spot you need to tip your cap if he bluffed. The only thing that could really change this for me is your image and how active you've been. If you've been pretty active, I might peel one more street.

 

[or3o1990]

I think you played it well. You don't have enough info from what I can see to expect your opponent to go nuts with a bluff here on a rainbow board. You also can't expect him to 4-bet and bet the turn with JJ. Because you're deep, his range is going to be wider here, but after only 50 hands and a tighter stat range, I think it's a spot you need to tip your cap if he bluffed. The only thing that could really change this for me is your image and how active you've been. If you've been pretty active, I might peel one more street.

Thanks. My hat is definitely off for this one. His turn bet was bold, it certainly had me sold..

BTW the hud is a game changer! My hat is off to you as well!

 

[mottotom27]

You'd be the first person in the world who knows what they should do, but doesn't always do it.

How many tables on average are you playing with this B game plan? One temp adjustment you could make is cut down on the number of tables, and really focus on reads and dynamic adjustments. Give yourself some time to really watch the action. As you get better at this you can add more tables back in. It's really very much like lifting weights for your observation skills. You just have to get in there and do it, and eventually you'll notice it gets easier and more fluid.
Sure. I think everyone has this issue because it's a learning process. Poker is too dynamic for anyone to say X play is always correct. That's where the famous poker analysis of... "it depends" always comes in. BUT, since you recognize a situation you need to open wider, just start with the next 5-10% of your range than you normally do. The most important thing is recognizing the situation, and then if you're not sure about the play, post here.

Well, again, recognize these situations in real time, and then post the hands. That will go a long way because we can look at it, break down the math, etc..

In terms of exact % of range, again the most important thing will be the difference in fold to 3-bet and post flop aggression. I know you said nothing changes in terms of F3B, but it's a little abstract still. I think the bottom line is we can punch in his range and an acceptable 3-bet and cold calling range after. In general, just know you need to widen this as it's never going to be precise. It doesn't mean exact double because it depends on what type of hands he's opening. That's difficult to estimate unless you have a read that helps like, he loves to open suited gappers. Then we could take stronger hands out of his range like Q6s etc.. and add in more 75s type hands. If we don't have a read then we can assume a mixed strategy and look at some numbers.

On a side note I've been doing a lot of analysis on pre-flop play this week. I'm re-examining some of my own approach and looking at new data also. It may take a little while, but I'm going to write out a lot of what I find to share with you guys. I'm looking a lot at blind defense right now since it's been brought up on here just recently too. Most of it confirms what I've been saying about how things play, but I'm going to post up some raw numbers of common spots, Ie, button open and BB/SB defense.

Thanks John, this has been helpful! i think i'm going to spend some time cutting down to just 1 or maximum 2 zoom tables so i can really strip it all back and think carefully about every decision (even the "standard" preflop spots shouldn't just be automatic). i think i've been overly focused on taking "balanced" lines and trying to be unexploitable (e.g. protecting my checking range with a medium top pair vs players who will call multiple streets with second pair or a weak draw) but i'm slowly realising that this whole "balance" concept should only really be used vs good solid regs since they're the only player type who might be able to exploit you. would you say that there's no need to "protect your checking ranges" vs the average microstakes villain? it's just i hear advice all the time from coaches on training sites about how you don't wanna be check/folding too much after you check a flop as PFR or villain can just bet ATC profitably...but i'm starting to think that this is wrong at the micros and i should just bet for thin value whenever i have a hand that gets worse to call, even if it makes my checking range really weak. would be interesting what your opinion is on this...

I look forward to your preflop article. I've learnt a lot this month but i feel there's still so much more i can learn!

 

[Figaroo2]

Tom I'm pretty sure you are backing into the right answers. Just how many decent regs are in the 10 nl zoom pool that you have 1K plus hands that are actually going to stop and look to see if your checking ranges are exploitable...? Probably none. They will all be multi tabling their B game just like you were.
This is one of the reasons I prefer standard tables as opposed to zoom as I get to watch every hand they are playing.

 

[John A]

Thanks John, this has been helpful! i think i'm going to spend some time cutting down to just 1 or maximum 2 zoom tables so i can really strip it all back and think carefully about every decision (even the "standard" preflop spots shouldn't just be automatic). i think i've been overly focused on taking "balanced" lines and trying to be unexploitable (e.g. protecting my checking range with a medium top pair vs players who will call multiple streets with second pair or a weak draw) but i'm slowly realising that this whole "balance" concept should only really be used vs good solid regs since they're the only player type who might be able to exploit you. would you say that there's no need to "protect your checking ranges" vs the average microstakes villain? it's just i hear advice all the time from coaches on training sites about how you don't wanna be check/folding too much after you check a flop as PFR or villain can just bet ATC profitably...but i'm starting to think that this is wrong at the micros and i should just bet for thin value whenever i have a hand that gets worse to call, even if it makes my checking range really weak. would be interesting what your opinion is on this...

I look forward to your preflop article. I've learnt a lot this month but i feel there's still so much more i can learn!

Hehe.... like I said, there's a lot of bad advice out there. A lot. We had a whole debate on this topic with fknife in this thread didn't we? I've talked about this for years now, and blogged about it not too long ago either:
http://www.acepokersolutions.com/poker-blog/gto-gto-gto-on-bovada/

It's not that they are incorrect in theory. But I notice a lot of these guys have difficulty knowing WHEN to apply theory. It's the classic book smart vs. real world conundrum. Some people can really apply themselves and understand any given topic, but they struggle with the practical use and application of that idea/concept. I'm not saying this is happening with all coaches of course. But I've played with a lot of poker players over the years. I wouldn't ask some of them to try and save me from an empty room with only one window, they might over think it.

Intelligence to me has always been people who can understand the theory AND the application and use. Someone who can adapt quickly, and use a multitude of approaches to solving a problem. It's a more elastic mind.

So it's probably a good time to take a step back and evaluate the use of different ideas you've been learning and studying. GTO itself is good to learn, but again, just make sure you're using it more for understanding ranges and math in certain spots, and less about balancing against opponents who have highly exploitable tendencies.

 

[John A]

Thanks. My hat is definitely off for this one. His turn bet was bold, it certainly had me sold..

BTW the hud is a game changer! My hat is off to you as well!

YW.... and yes, the bovada card catcher is pretty sweet. If I told you how much I spent in development though you'd poop your pants. lol

I took some bad advice initially and it's been my toughest project to date, but it's finally working well. You live and you learn. Glad you're enjoying it.