Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[John A]

1. Nash is a set of strategies that are maximally exploitive against each other (I don't know, maybe it's worth adding there).
2. Exploitive Optimal Play? (= Maximally Exploitive play)
3. On the second slide you wrote that: "GTO 'assumes' opponent is always countering with the perfect strategy" (??) but few minutes later you say it does not really matter if he does or does not (somewhere around Nash Shoving Charts) - although I might misinterpreted this one

I like the video. I really do

Thanks for the feedback.

1) Do you think it's not clear enough to warrant re-doing that part and re-editing?
2) It's something we've said in the poker community for a long time now.
3) Yeah, maybe that can be confusing, but I'm not 100% sure where you mean. Do you have a timestamp? I was trying to say that just in conjunction with the nash chart, and not as a general statement for GTO play because clearly I explain how and when it does matter. I might re-do that section though because I don't want any confusion.

 

[Fknife]

1) Do you think it's not clear enough to warrant re-doing that part and re-editing?

Hmm I would definitely stick to only using one term: perfect(3rd slide)/exploitive optimal(4th slide)/maximally exploitive (my imagination) strategy because that can be confusing. Other that that, as long as people know that they cannot improve their EVs by deviating from Nash, I think we are good (and you explained it well).

2) It's something we've said in the poker community for a long time now.

Oh ok, I didn't know that.

3) Yeah, maybe that can be confusing, but I'm not 100% sure where you mean. Do you have a timestamp? I was trying to say that just in conjunction with the nash chart, and not as a general statement for GTO play because clearly I explain how and when it does matter. I might re-do that section though because I don't want any confusion.

10:33 - 10:50: "(..) no matter what your opponent does, at the very least you're gonna break even (..)"

We could pick some random boards, 2 different ranges and come up with some Equilibrias (even in CREV with a MINIMAX script) for different eg: River Cards, right? Of course, it does not mean that it would be the actual GTO for Holdem, but going by definition of Nash - we would not have to care what Villain's strategy is (he can only play worse, if he does not know GTO). (And yes, I know that I ignored previous streets )

So my point is: if we knew THE GTO (the actual solution), we wouldnt need to worry how others are playing. Yes, you said that in that timespan but I remember you also saying (or writing in one of your posts) something like: "we don't want to play GTO because our opponents are not playing GTO", which seems a bit contrary to Nash (unless you just meant that we should be working on our exploitive skills because most of the people suck at poker therefore we can make more profit following that way).

 

[John A]

Hmm I would definitely stick to only using one term: perfect(3rd slide)/exploitive optimal(4th slide)/maximally exploitive (my imagination) strategy because that can be confusing. Other that that, as long as people know that they cannot improve their EVs by deviating from Nash, I think we are good (and you explained it well).

I'm intentionally using different terms though. I think I explain why.

10:33 - 10:50: "(..) no matter what your opponent does, at the very least you're gonna break even (..)"

We could pick some random boards, 2 different ranges and come up with some Equilibrias (even in CREV with a MINIMAX script) for different eg: River Cards, right? Of course, it does not mean that it would be the actual GTO for Holdem, but going by definition of Nash - we would not have to care what Villain's strategy is (he can only play worse, if he does not know GTO). (And yes, I know that I ignored previous streets )

So my point is: if we knew THE GTO (the actual solution), we wouldnt need to worry how others are playing. Yes, you said that in that timespan but I remember you also saying (or writing in one of your posts) something like: "we don't want to play GTO because our opponents are not playing GTO", which seems a bit contrary to Nash (unless you just meant that we should be working on our exploitive skills because most of the people suck at poker therefore we can make more profit following that way).

Isn't this what I'm saying though based on your own quote? And I'm talking about Nash Push/Fold charts, so I'm not talking about GTO specifically. I'm saying, the worst you can do is break even. Is there something that isn't clear, or are we going back to talking about something you think I said earlier, and criticize it, argue against it, and then offer what you think my answer is?

 

[mottotom27]

OK result time...
J9 Nutball Hand.... Villain had T9 offsuit for a pair of 9's on the turn and shoved his pair/gutshot....it was a great feeling to stick with my read and stack this guy.....

i'm happy that it worked out for you this time. but it does seem like you were a little bit results oriented with your post-analysis of the hand. seeing as you won the hand, it's understandable your high level of confidence about your decision when you made phrases like "pretty much a snap call" and "for me this is a really easy call". after you win a big pot it's naturally easy to overestimate how good your play was, conversely if you lose a big pot then naturally you might start thinking how bad a play it was.

basically what i'm saying is that if you had lost the hand i don't think you would have been quite so confident in your views, i doubt you would have been quite so quick to label it as an easy/snap call. i'm not berating your play by any means, this may indeed be a +EV call but as John mentioned it's not really a clear cut decision so i'm just saying your description of it being a super easy snap call is a bit of an overstatement.

i nonetheless admire your ability to think through the decision carefully and have confidence in your read enough to make a gutsy call, so nice hand

 

[mottotom27]

Mottotom, you're missing the point. Limping is not an aggressive play, but limping, calling a raise to see a flop, AND then donking into it afterwards? This villain is obviously trying to take every pot down.

ok i see your point now seafish

 

[mottotom27]

GTO play explained

thanks for posting this John, i totally agree with your reasoning and it helps me to understand the concept a little better. i kinda think GTO should not be fully used, but i think the sort of thinking it involves can sometimes be helpful regarding balancing your range more effectively vs good players who might be able to exploit you.

i feel at the micros playing pretty much a fully exploitative game seems like the way to go, but i'm assuming that as you move up stakes range balancing and defensive strategies start to become more relevant?

 

[John A]

thanks for posting this John, i totally agree with your reasoning and it helps me to understand the concept a little better. i kinda think GTO should not be fully used, but i think the sort of thinking it involves can sometimes be helpful regarding balancing your range more effectively vs good players who might be able to exploit you.

i feel at the micros playing pretty much a fully exploitative game seems like the way to go, but i'm assuming that as you move up stakes range balancing and defensive strategies start to become more relevant?

Yw... were the concepts clear enough? That's what I need the most feedback on.

And yes, like I say in the video, thinking in terms of GTO strategy is helpful in terms of understanding what kinds of hands you should have in a given spot and how to balance those properly against good opponents. Against weak opponents, it should at least give you some kind of baseline, but don't focus on balancing so much.

Yes, as you move up your opponents are going to understand what your range is in most spots so you need to balance those effectively and then also surprise them with showing up with some hands that you "shouldn't" have.

 

[mottotom27]

Yes it was very well explained. Yea i agree, i need to focus on being balanced vs better regs since atm i am making exploitable plays like folding to 3bets a tad too much, and folding to cbets too much so i think your video has made more aware of these exploitable leaks in my game

 

[John A]

Yes it was very well explained. Yea i agree, i need to focus on being balanced vs better regs since atm i am making exploitable plays like folding to 3bets a tad too much, and folding to cbets too much so i think your video has made more aware of these exploitable leaks in my game

Just keep in mind, only concern yourself about this against the better regs in your game, and only when they have some decent hand sample sizes and you.

 

[Figaroo2]

ABC Reg raising nearly every unopened button. Any comments on river sizing? I wanted it to look like value, it worked but is bigger better here for a bit of extra pressure, when does it start to look bluffy?

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $19.75 (79 bb)
Hero (BB): $25 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $12.33 (49.3 bb)
MP1: $25.91 (103.6 bb)
MP2: $24.65 (98.6 bb)
MP3: $25.32 (101.3 bb)
CO: $24.28 (97.1 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb) 18/16/41 in 854 hands

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9:club: A:diamond:
5 folds, BTN raises to $0.63, SB folds, Hero calls $0.38 ( I had already three bet this guy 4 times from the BB in 65 hands in this session, he called once and folded 3 times so this time I just choose to call and mix it up a bit) He has never folded to a flop donk bet.

Flop: ($1.36) 5:heart: 4:club: 8:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80 (intending to overbet lead out on the turn, this board is smacking my calling range)

Turn: ($2.96) 2:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $3.50, BTN tank calls $3.50

River: ($9.96) K:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $4.75, BTN folds

Results: $9.96 pot ($0.45 rake)
Final Board: 5:heart: 4:club: 8:spade: 2:diamond: K:diamond:
Hero mucked 9:club: A:diamond: and won $9.51 ($4.58 net)
BTN mucked and lost (-$4.93 net)

 

[John A]

Looks good, but the board texture isn't the best for over bet bluffing the turn. It's good in the sense that you picked up some nice outs, but not good in terms of your perceived range. You're kind of just repping the nuts, not even a set really. Let's go down the checklist right?

1) His range is weak, your range is seen as slightly better than his.
2) He bets weak on the flop and you just call. Your hand looks a lot like Ax.
3) Turn brick and you over bet. Looks even more like AT+ picking up outs. A more perceptive opponent is raising here a lot.
4) River bet is good. 8x isn't folding so you have to hope essentially you can get him to fold 5x,4x,66/77 (which those two aren't folding too often) more than ~ 33% of the time. I'd probably bet about 5.5 to slightly improve my 4x, 5x folding frequency, but it's close. We'd have to do some math to see how often you need him folding there. I like the follow through on your plan and the river sizing is decent.

It's good you're thinking through these spots more. It makes a big difference doesn't it?

 

[Figaroo2]

Looks good, but the board texture isn't the best for over bet bluffing the turn. It's good in the sense that you picked up some nice outs, but not good in terms of your perceived range.
It's good you're thinking through these spots more. It makes a big difference doesn't it?

Fighting for these pots when in the BB is good for the redline! Anyway why doesn't this hit my perceived range? Isn't a callers range a lot of small pairs here?

moving on
Not happy with this hand. Should I have checked the turn here? there is some history with this villain, and two hands before this i'd hit him with a large turn raise after he double barreled a low board. He has fairly low wtsd at 20%.
I had 3bet him 4 times in the session and this was his second call. I felt he was starting to get a bit irritated with me..
Do we continue? Plenty of implied odds, its difficult to put him on a 4,
so 3 aces 4 fours and 2 fives as outs to a win or split.
pot is $23.40 and $6.20 to call
with it being a 3bet pot I suppose he has plenty of medium overpairs but flush draws abound. Other than being a double barreler he isn't overly agg.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $25.50 (102 bb) slightly loose reg 21/16/agg%24 in 316 hands
Hero (BB): $31.95 (127.8 bb)
UTG+2: $31.36 (125.4 bb)
MP1: $27.40 (109.6 bb)
MP2: $27.72 (110.9 bb)
MP3: $29.41 (117.6 bb)
CO: $25.55 (102.2 bb)
BTN: $24.65 (98.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5:spade: A:spade:
6 folds, SB raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.25, SB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.50) 6:club: 5:diamond: 3:diamond: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.15, SB calls $2.15

Turn: ($8.80) 2:club: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4.20, SB raises to $10.40,
Hero?

 

[John A]

Fighting for these pots when in the BB is good for the redline! Anyway why doesn't this hit my perceived range? Isn't a callers range a lot of small pairs here?

So you're going to have 4x and 5x a lot here? What's your usual calling range here in this spot?

Don't worry about your redline, just play good poker. The redline will take care of itself, but at these stakes, you really don't want a rising redline. And I know, I've read people that even say to have one, etc.. but really it should be pretty close to flat or slightly rising or falling if you're table selecting well at these stakes.

Fyi, I've been on vacation since yesterday. Short trip that I'll be back on the 2nd. I'll still be checking messages and forums as I have time. Happy spring break everyone!

 

[mottotom27]

What do you do if an unknown 4bets you after you 3bet JJ in the big blind facing their button open? a situation occurred today where unknown villain raised 2bb, i 3bet to 8bb and he snap min 4bet to 16bb. am i supposed to go with JJ?

obviously there are a lot of micro players that never 4bet bluff and only do it with QQ+/AK and i'm not in great shape. but then there are some who do like to mess around in these button vs blinds spot.

 

[Figaroo2]

What do you do if an unknown 4bets you after you 3bet JJ in the big blind facing their button open? a situation occurred today where unknown villain raised 2bb, i 3bet to 8bb and he snap min 4bet to 16bb. am i supposed to go with JJ?
obviously there are a lot of micro players that never 4bet bluff and only do it with QQ+/AK and i'm not in great shape. but then there are some who do like to mess around in these button vs blinds spot.

We had this same discussion in a vinylspiros thread last week where he had QQ on the button facing a 4 bet from utg. The same applies here, if you are raising for value you don't bin the hand to a 4 bet unless the sizing is massive or player type a total nit. There are more combos of AK that AA and KK so you may still be favourite. Here from the butt v blind he has a much wider range and will be 4 betting lighter more often as well. I would at least call and take the battle 'to the streets'.
Shouldn't we already know what hands we are 3bet folding and 3 bet calling/shoving to a 4 bet, before we 3 bet?

 

[mottotom27]

We had this same discussion in a vinylspiros thread last week where he had QQ on the button facing a 4 bet from utg. The same applies here, if you are raising for value you don't bin the hand to a 4 bet unless the sizing is massive or player type a total nit. There are more combos of AK that AA and KK so you may still be favourite. Here from the butt v blind he has a much wider range and will be 4 betting lighter more often as well. I would at least call and take the battle 'to the streets'.
Shouldn't we already know what hands we are 3bet folding and 3 bet calling/shoving to a 4 bet, before we 3 bet?

i never flat 4bets and think it's a bad idea in general, especially out of position.

villain 4betting wider i agree. however i ultimately wasn't sure if i have enough equity vs his 4bet range to shove. i thought i did until i watched a video of "xflixx" where he 3bet and said he might fold to a 4bet in the exact same BTN vs blinds scenario with JJ. The coach said "these 10nl players never 4bet bluff preflop" in which case i'd only have like 35-40% equity vs my opponent's range if we got it in.

i don't quite understand your reasoning that if you 3bet for value you should always get it in facing a 4bet. isn't that like saying if you bet for value on the turn with top pair you should always call a raise? like i 3bet to get value from his calling range, which i know equity wise will be behind JJ but if he's the type to only 4bet hands like QQ and AK (a lot of people will) then getting it in would be a mistake. do you see what i'm saying?

 

[RickAversion]

Isn't A5s when in BB a fold?
Looks like Figaroo got caught bluffing.
I think V has a pocket pair, or maybe a set.

 

[John A]

pot is $23.40 and $6.20 to call
with it being a 3bet pot I suppose he has plenty of medium overpairs but flush draws abound. Other than being a double barreler he isn't overly agg.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $25.50 (102 bb) slightly loose reg 21/16/agg%24 in 316 hands
Hero (BB): $31.95 (127.8 bb)
UTG+2: $31.36 (125.4 bb)
MP1: $27.40 (109.6 bb)
MP2: $27.72 (110.9 bb)
MP3: $29.41 (117.6 bb)
CO: $25.55 (102.2 bb)
BTN: $24.65 (98.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5♠ A♠
6 folds, SB raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.25, SB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.50) 6♣ 5♦ 3♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.15, SB calls $2.15

Turn: ($8.80) 2♣ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4.20, SB raises to $10.40,
Hero?

Assuming he is a reg that understands poker, we can probably remove most of the draws from his range correct? There's no point in him shoving a draw. If he was going to continue, it would make more sense for him to just call and then shove the river if he hits, and fold if he doesn't.

But to your question, yes, I'd check the turn especially if he's a loose reg and he can have a good amount of draws, it's better to pot control and then snap off some bluffs then to get close to committing yourself with a pair of 5's in a 3-bet pot.

 

[Figaroo2]

Isn't A5s when in BB a fold?
Looks like Figaroo got caught bluffing.
I think V has a pocket pair, or maybe a set.

This is a pretty standard play at 25nl....In a blind versus blind situation I am going to raise the SB for three reasons.
I will have position in the hand after the flop, I will have the initiative and I know that most opponents at these stakes are usually pretty light.
Most players these days will steal with a very wide range from the SB here so the obvious counter is to just 3Bet them wide as well.
I probably am behind to a medium overpair here but he could also have 44 or A4, but I have position and there are plenty of cards that will scare him here. Its the sizing of his raise thats good here making it a mistake to call here most of the time, especially if I cant bluff him off his hand.

 

[Figaroo2]

i never flat 4bets and think it's a bad idea in general, especially out of position.
i don't quite understand your reasoning that if you 3bet for value you should always get it in facing a 4bet. do you see what i'm saying?

I never said 'always get it in'...play will always be villain dependant.... If you think because of the stakes that its a fold because the players never 4bet without the nuts...then fold..
That said in this scenario i'm rarely folding JJ here unless they are a total nit, in which caseI probably would have just called pre anyway.
My experience is there are plenty of regs at 25nl and increasingly at 10nl who know how to 4 bet light from the button to protect their wider ranges. That is why I've added 4betting stats to my hud.
Here if you are going to fold JJ that is a waste of their equity, you should know the player type you are raising and know whether you are going to fold if he 4bets.
No point 3betting them if you are going to fold so just call pre.

 

[rhombus]

What do you do if an unknown 4bets you after you 3bet JJ in the big blind facing their button open? a situation occurred today where unknown villain raised 2bb, i 3bet to 8bb and he snap min 4bet to 16bb. am i supposed to go with JJ?

obviously there are a lot of micro players that never 4bet bluff and only do it with QQ+/AK and i'm not in great shape. but then there are some who do like to mess around in these button vs blinds spot.

I had similar spot yesterday with QQ. When I 3B $1.30 and they 4Bet $3, I thought about flat calling but was unsure of the maths so decided to just shove as they weren't a NIT 22/22 after only 23 hands

Looking at the maths QQ against a NITs range of AK/KK/AA is only a 60/40 dog so easy shove against Villain Here

against a NIT then its a fold, especially after rake
($10 * 0.4) - ($8 * 0.6) = $-0.8

to break even I need 44%

so against a 2% range (AKo, AKs, KK, AA) its a fold as QQ is 40%
3% easy Call QQ is 50%


Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $9.28 (92.8 bb)
BB: $8.56 (85.6 bb)
UTG: $10 (100 bb)
MP: $10.28 (102.8 bb)
CO: $9.26 (92.6 bb)
BTN: $10.43 (104.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

Q

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, CO folds, BTN calls $0.30, Hero raises to $1.30, BB folds, MP raises to $3, BTN folds, Hero raises to $9.28, MP calls $6.28

Flop: ($18.96) 5

2

4

(2 players)
Turn: ($18.96) T

(2 players)
River: ($18.96) 6

(2 players)

Results: $18.96 pot ($0.85 rake)
Final Board: 5

2

4

T

6

Hero showed Q

Q

and lost (-$9.28 net)
MP showed A

A

and won $18.11 ($8.83 net)

 

[mottotom27]

In this scenario i'm rarely folding JJ here unless they are a total nit, in which case I probably would have just called pre anyway.

No point 3betting them if you are going to fold so just call pre.

yea villain was unknown here which complicates things. do you think there's anything wrong with just calling pre here? i might start doing it sometimes since it sucks when i get 4bet and don't know what to do. it just seems a little weak with JJ facing button open, especially when i need to get my 3% 3bet percentage higher. but yea kinda agreeing that i probably should just go with JJ here.

 

[mottotom27]

I had similar spot yesterday with QQ. When I 3B $1.30 and they 4Bet $3, I thought about flat calling but was unsure of the maths so decided to just shove as they weren't a NIT 22/22 after only 23 hands

Looking at the maths QQ against a NITs range of AK/KK/AA is only a 60/40 dog so easy shove against Villain Here

against a NIT then its a fold, especially after rake
($10 * 0.4) - ($8 * 0.6) = $-0.8

to break even I need 44%

so against a 2% range (AKo, AKs, KK, AA) its a fold as QQ is 40%
3% easy Call QQ is 50%


Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $9.28 (92.8 bb)
BB: $8.56 (85.6 bb)
UTG: $10 (100 bb)
MP: $10.28 (102.8 bb)
CO: $9.26 (92.6 bb)
BTN: $10.43 (104.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

Q

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, CO folds, BTN calls $0.30, Hero raises to $1.30, BB folds, MP raises to $3, BTN folds, Hero raises to $9.28, MP calls $6.28

Flop: ($18.96) 5

2

4

(2 players)
Turn: ($18.96) T

(2 players)
River: ($18.96) 6

(2 players)

Results: $18.96 pot ($0.85 rake)
Final Board: 5

2

4

T

6

Hero showed Q

Q

and lost (-$9.28 net)
MP showed A

A

and won $18.11 ($8.83 net)

yea indeed it's a similar spot since i do find myself running into KK+/AK quite a bit here and again here only 23 hands to go upon and we also don't know what villain's 4bet range is like.

 

[Aces2w1n]

My response these days to those types of hands is flat the 4bet with QQ and AK.

Use to be profitable back in the day to shove but it feels it's -ev as people know how to play poker better these days. I use to shove all day everyday with QQ and AK in those types of spots.


I guess we really need a few hundred hands before we can decide if shoving QQ is +ev here since its villain dependant to shove

 

[Aces2w1n]

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $6.23 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 100.00, Hands: 7)
CO: $2.22 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
BTN: $1.92 (VPIP: 20.69, PFR: 13.79, 3Bet Preflop: 18.18, Hands: 30)
Hero (SB): $2.07
BB: $1.69 (VPIP: 17.35, PFR: 10.20, 3Bet Preflop: 3.03, Hands: 100)

Hero posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has Q:diamond: Q:spade:

fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.08, Hero raises to $0.26, BB calls $0.24, BTN raises to $1.04, Hero raises to $2.07 and is all-in, BB calls $1.43 and is all-in, BTN calls $0.88 and is all-in

Flop: ($5.53, 3 players) 3:diamond: J:club: 2:spade:

Turn: ($5.53, 3 players) 6:diamond:

River: ($5.53, 3 players) J:spade:

Opponents both had AA and KK haha