Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Figaroo2]

Folding is hopelessy weak so cant be that. Calling against an aggressive reg out of position and facing likely overcards on the flop, no thanks. So it has to be a 4 bet. I wouldnt want him just to call for the same reasons as us just calling the three bet. Id go for the higher 4 bet in fact id consider jamming 99 here which I would think is probably +ev in the long run. I will look at your spoiler now.

 

[Figaroo2]

Funny this as I was discussing the merits of 4 bet jamming 10 10 in this same scenario recently in another forum. Another question then, against the same villain where do we draw the line in terms of 4 betting lower pairs before our ev becomes negative.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

A quick question from the Vol. II workbook to get your poker juices going.

Question 2, pg 46. You open in the Co with 9s9d. A loose aggressive regular (VPIP 30 / PFR 25 / 3-bet 10%) in your game 3-bets you to 10 BBs from the button. The action folds back to you. What's your best course of action?

[ ] Call [ ] Fold [ ] 4-bet to 23 BBs [ ] 4-bet to 28 BBs
​

Spoiler

Answer: 4-bet to 28 BBs. You want to increase your fold equity in this spot against a loose and aggressive opponent. If you can do this properly, then 4-bet and calling off your stack is the highest EV play long term. It all comes down to fold frequency, because you want to reduce the possibility of 4-bet calling to make the play as high of an EV play as possible. So the slightly larger 4-bet sizing will increase the likelihood of your opponent calling with some of their marginal hands that still have decent equity against you.


If you decrease your 4-bet sizing to 23, you will most likely increase your opponents calling range, so the EV of the play becomes slightly more unclear because there are too many variables to calculate properly.


However, if your opponent folds at least 70% of the time to your 4-bet, which is reasonable if you assume at least a 16% 3-bet frequency in this spot, then your 4-bet is profitable no matter what play your opponent makes. If they jam to your 4-bet, then you have at least 38% equity still against their range for an EV of just over +3. Your total EV for the play, assuming that your opponent either 5-bets or folds, and his calling range is generally strong if he does call is +7.08. You will win the 14.5 that it's the pot 70% of the time when you 4-bet and your opponent folds. 30% of the time they will jam, and you'll call the remaining 69 to win 104.5 and you'll have 38% equity versus their range.


14.5 (.7) + (104.5 (.38) - 69 (.62)) = +7.08


As opposed to saying that your opponent will only fold 50% of the time to the smaller 4-bet, call at least 10% and jam the rest of the time. In that case we end up with a negative EV solution over the long run.


14.5 (.4) + (104.5 (.38) - (74 (.62)) = -.37

Calling is not a good option against a good loose and aggressive opponent who can push you off a lot of hands. Against a weaker regular, or against any fish or more passive opponent, calling would become the higher EV play. There's an argument to be made about calling against an opponent's wide range in this spot. However in reality, most players struggle with navigating this spot OOP against a good and aggressive opponent.

Definite 4-bet in this position. I probably would 4-bet 30bb just to keep it simple. Button's 3-bet range can be quite wide and with a middle pair in the hand you're in pretty good shape. If I had pocket 6's or 7's I'd really have to think about this and weigh button's range and post flop play style considering there are a lot of higher cards that could beat the pair. Even 8's would be right on the line.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

I hate loose passives. If there is any type of play that I struggle against more than others it's definitely loose passive. Here's a hand from last night against a loose passive. I had watched him c/call c/call c/raise a few times already and with a board like this I checked the river. Should I have just manned up and bet? I had a feeling that he would have raised me and then I would have been in a really tough spot.... Damn loose passives lol

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

BB ($6.90)
Hero (UTG) ($5.55)
MP1 ($5.05)
MP2 ($5)
CO ($3.38)
Button ($4.28)
SB ($6.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J

, K

Hero raises to $0.15, 2 folds, CO calls $0.15, 1 fold, SB calls $0.13, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.50) 6

, Q

, 8

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.25, 1 fold, SB calls $0.25

Turn: ($1) K

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.50, SB calls $0.50

River: ($2) 7

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $2 | Rake: $0.08

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had 7

, 9

(one pair, sevens).
Hero had J

, K

(one pair, Kings).
Outcome: Hero won $1.92

 

[Fisi]

A quick question from the Vol. II workbook to get your poker juices going.

Question 2, pg 46. You open in the Co with 9s9d. A loose aggressive regular (VPIP 30 / PFR 25 / 3-bet 10%) in your game 3-bets you to 10 BBs from the button. The action folds back to you. What's your best course of action?

[ ] Call [ ] Fold [ ] 4-bet to 23 BBs [ ] 4-bet to 28 BBs
​

Spoiler

Answer: 4-bet to 28 BBs. You want to increase your fold equity in this spot against a loose and aggressive opponent. If you can do this properly, then 4-bet and calling off your stack is the highest EV play long term. It all comes down to fold frequency, because you want to reduce the possibility of 4-bet calling to make the play as high of an EV play as possible. So the slightly larger 4-bet sizing will increase the likelihood of your opponent calling with some of their marginal hands that still have decent equity against you.


If you decrease your 4-bet sizing to 23, you will most likely increase your opponents calling range, so the EV of the play becomes slightly more unclear because there are too many variables to calculate properly.


However, if your opponent folds at least 70% of the time to your 4-bet, which is reasonable if you assume at least a 16% 3-bet frequency in this spot, then your 4-bet is profitable no matter what play your opponent makes. If they jam to your 4-bet, then you have at least 38% equity still against their range for an EV of just over +3. Your total EV for the play, assuming that your opponent either 5-bets or folds, and his calling range is generally strong if he does call is +7.08. You will win the 14.5 that it's the pot 70% of the time when you 4-bet and your opponent folds. 30% of the time they will jam, and you'll call the remaining 69 to win 104.5 and you'll have 38% equity versus their range.


14.5 (.7) + (104.5 (.38) - 69 (.62)) = +7.08


As opposed to saying that your opponent will only fold 50% of the time to the smaller 4-bet, call at least 10% and jam the rest of the time. In that case we end up with a negative EV solution over the long run.


14.5 (.4) + (104.5 (.38) - (74 (.62)) = -.37

Calling is not a good option against a good loose and aggressive opponent who can push you off a lot of hands. Against a weaker regular, or against any fish or more passive opponent, calling would become the higher EV play. There's an argument to be made about calling against an opponent's wide range in this spot. However in reality, most players struggle with navigating this spot OOP against a good and aggressive opponent.

That looks super nice! Can't wait

 

[Figaroo2]

Sneaky if you have seen him check raise the river twice then there is no disgrace in checking behind with a 1 pair hand. In the absence of obvious draws I would bet at least 75-80% on the turn to extract value from Qx or 2nd pair
On the river, with a 1 pair hand, might I suggest a small blocking bet of 20-25% on the river. Often they will call this bet size and if you then get raised you arent losing as much.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Sneaky if you have seen him check raise the river twice then there is no disgrace in checking behind with a 1 pair hand. In the absence of obvious draws I would bet at least 75-80% on the turn to extract value from Qx or 2nd pair
On the river, with a 1 pair hand, might I suggest a small blocking bet of 20-25% on the river. Often they will call this bet size and if you then get raised you arent losing as much.

Thanks Figaroo. I like that idea of the small river bet and I definitely see your point about betting heavier on the turn. He's going to call anyway, might as well make him pay for it

 

[John A]

Folding is hopelessy weak so cant be that. Calling against an aggressive reg out of position and facing likely overcards on the flop, no thanks. So it has to be a 4 bet. I wouldnt want him just to call for the same reasons as us just calling the three bet. Id go for the higher 4 bet in fact id consider jamming 99 here which I would think is probably +ev in the long run. I will look at your spoiler now.

Good reasoning. Well played.

I noticed I made a small error in the answer. I meant to say increase, and I said decrease. Meh...

 

[Figaroo2]

jamming 99 v 10% three bet range

So if we 4 bet jam 99 we are just ahead in terms of equity against the 10% 3 bet range even before we take the fold equity into consideration.
If we think he folds to a jam with all but JJ+ then its probably worth jamming down to 77 also.
What does anyone think of this?

 

[John A]

I hate loose passives. If there is any type of play that I struggle against more than others it's definitely loose passive. Here's a hand from last night against a loose passive. I had watched him c/call c/call c/raise a few times already and with a board like this I checked the river. Should I have just manned up and bet? I had a feeling that he would have raised me and then I would have been in a really tough spot.... Damn loose passives lol

To your question... yes... bet. If he's truly loose / passive, then he's not going to be CR bluffing. Easy value bet. If you've seen him CR a river, then he either really had a hand, or he's not loose/passive.

 

[John A]

So if we 4 bet jam 99 we are just ahead in terms of equity against the 10% 3 bet range even before we take the fold equity into consideration.
If we think he folds to a jam with all but JJ+ then its probably worth jamming down to 77 also.
What does anyone think of this?

I think if you're trying to figure out if a 4-bet jam, instead of regular 4-bet is profitable, then you need to look at both 3-bet range (which in my example, it's actually 16%, not 10%), and then you need to put in a new 4-bet calling range, which is different than his 3-betting range.

 

[Figaroo2]

Well its very situational of course, if he knows you are capable of 4 bet jamming 99/88 his 4 bet calling range is really going to open up.
Against a 16% 3 bet range the equity of 99 goes up to 56%. I think in future when I dont have much history with someone I would consider 4bet jamming 99/88 against a decent reg, I'd never really want to play a mid pair here oop against a decent player and be facing a couple of overcards on the flop. Once we have history we can revert to normal 4 betting patterns as you advise above.

 

[John A]

I'd advise just 4-betting like I suggested. People at your stakes will play pretty straight forward in a 4-bet pot if they decide to call. It would be that hard to play and the calling range won't really differ that much imho.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

To your question... yes... bet. If he's truly loose / passive, then he's not going to be CR bluffing. Easy value bet. If you've seen him CR a river, then he either really had a hand, or he's not loose/passive.

I'm just starting to dig into chapter 5 of your book and learning about what types of notes to place on different types of players so this is very timely. I had very few (50 maybe) hands on villain in the above hand and I'm still using very basic catagories ie. tight loose aggressive passive. In chapter 5 you have layed out some really good examples of different types of labels to use based on play. For the hand I posted, what would be a more accurate label to use against some one who c/calls to the river then c/raises? I'd like to say donk but I don't think that will help me much

 

[John A]

c/cing down and then CR river doesn't happen very often. It really depends on what they are CR (either missed draws or for value). In nearly all cases it will be for value, so no real need for a player type there.

That's good that you're going through those types. These are a lot of the ones I've used myself over the years. Expand on them as needed for your games. These should give you a good baseline though. I think we all have certain strengths in poker, and I think my biggest strength is reading players, being able to profile and understand their motivations, and then staying one step ahead of them. I'd consider it an art, and I think it's extremely important to develop.

When I've coached, I've not come across a student yet that hasn't commented on my reading, or asking how I knew he would likely do X or Y. I didn't know it was one of the strongest parts of my game until I started coaching really.

How I improved as a poker player is very much like I talk about in chapter 2. Recognize your strengths and weaknesses, and then put time in on your weakness, because that area usually has the most room for improvement. I lay some of this out in the upcoming workbook too, and how to make a training plan.

Any ways, that's good that you're working on that area, because like I said, I think it's super important and often over looked. If you have any other questions with player typing, just put some hands in here and we can go over them together.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

c/cing down and then CR river doesn't happen very often. It really depends on what they are CR (either missed draws or for value). In nearly all cases it will be for value, so no real need for a player type there.

That's good that you're going through those types. These are a lot of the ones I've used myself over the years. Expand on them as needed for your games. These should give you a good baseline though. I think we all have certain strengths in poker, and I think my biggest strength is reading players, being able to profile and understand their motivations, and then staying one step ahead of them. I'd consider it an art, and I think it's extremely important to develop.

When I've coached, I've not come across a student yet that hasn't commented on my reading, or asking how I knew he would likely do X or Y. I didn't know it was one of the strongest parts of my game until I started coaching really.

How I improved as a poker player is very much like I talk about in chapter 2. Recognize your strengths and weaknesses, and then put time in on your weakness, because that area usually has the most room for improvement. I lay some of this out in the upcoming workbook too, and how to make a training plan.

Any ways, that's good that you're working on that area, because like I said, I think it's super important and often over looked. If you have any other questions with player typing, just put some hands in here and we can go over them together.

Thanks John. I'm going to ask my wife to bake you a cake. I'm gluten free so I hope you don't mind paleo They ship as well as they keep lol

 

[Figaroo2]

up 30 buy in this month

This is my favorite hand this weekend so far.

IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $10 (100 bb)
BB: $3 (30 bb)
UTG: $6.01 (60.1 bb) fish vpip 78
MP: $8.49 (84.9 bb)
CO: $5.97 (59.7 bb)
BTN: $12.16 (121.6 bb) fish vpip 80

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2s 2d
UTG raises to $0.40, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.35, BB folds

Flop: ($1.30) 7c 9s 2c(3 players)
I was wondering how to get the money in but they were both nutballs I will wait to see what they do
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.70, BTN raises to $11.76 and is all-in, wow does he actually have a hand? no don't be silly got to call.
Hero calls $9.60 and is all-in, UTG folds

Turn: ($21.20) 7d (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($21.20) 9c (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $21.20 pot ($1.41 rake)
Final Board: 7c 9s 2c 7d 9c
Hero showed 2s 2d and won $19.79 ($9.79 net)
UTG mucked and lost (-$1.10 net)
BTN showed Qs Kh and lost (-$10 net)

 

[magicius]

This is my favorite hand this weekend so far.

IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $10 (100 bb)
BB: $3 (30 bb)
UTG: $6.01 (60.1 bb) fish vpip 78
MP: $8.49 (84.9 bb)
CO: $5.97 (59.7 bb)
BTN: $12.16 (121.6 bb) fish vpip 80

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2s 2d
UTG raises to $0.40, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.35, BB folds

Flop: ($1.30) 7c 9s 2c(3 players)
I was wondering how to get the money in but they were both nutballs I will wait to see what they do
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.70, BTN raises to $11.76 and is all-in, wow does he actually have a hand? no don't be silly got to call.
Hero calls $9.60 and is all-in, UTG folds

Turn: ($21.20) 7d (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($21.20) 9c (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $21.20 pot ($1.41 rake)
Final Board: 7c 9s 2c 7d 9c
Hero showed 2s 2d and won $19.79 ($9.79 net)
UTG mucked and lost (-$1.10 net)
BTN showed Qs Kh and lost (-$10 net)

dunno what i am still doing on stars tbh....

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk

 

[John A]

Turn: ($21.20) 7d (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($21.20) 9c (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $21.20 pot ($1.41 rake)
Final Board: 7c 9s 2c 7d 9c
Hero showed 2s 2d and won $19.79 ($9.79 net)
UTG mucked and lost (-$1.10 net)
BTN showed Qs Kh and lost (-$10 net)

Yeah, those kinds of players help the bankroll for sure!

I went skydiving today with a friend and still trying to understand why I did it. lol

Crazy rush though...

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Yeah, those kinds of players help the bankroll for sure!

I went skydiving today with a friend and still trying to understand why I did it. lol

Crazy rush though...

You'll be on that high for a few days. I've gone a couple times and my favorite part is watching the plane fly away as your falling through space. Good for you!

 

[John A]

You'll be on that high for a few days. I've gone a couple times and my favorite part is watching the plane fly away as your falling through space. Good for you!

Ya, it was pretty crazy. It was just me and my buddy in this plane, and I got to watch him jump out first, and then thought.... wtf am I doing? lol

I'd go again though.

Fyi, I'll still be checking this thread from time to time, but I'm leaving for Jamaica tomorrow until the 25th. I hope everyone is getting a good start to summer!

 

[rhombus]

Ya, it was pretty crazy. It was just me and my buddy in this plane, and I got to watch him jump out first, and then thought.... wtf am I doing? lol

I'd go again though.

Fyi, I'll still be checking this thread from time to time, but I'm leaving for Jamaica tomorrow until the 25th. I hope everyone is getting a good start to summer!

not my cup of tea jumping out of planes as im afraid of heights

Have a nice trip to Jamaica:canabis:

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Ya, it was pretty crazy. It was just me and my buddy in this plane, and I got to watch him jump out first, and then thought.... wtf am I doing? lol

I'd go again though.

Fyi, I'll still be checking this thread from time to time, but I'm leaving for Jamaica tomorrow until the 25th. I hope everyone is getting a good start to summer!

Have a great trip! I wouldn't recommend going skydiving in Jamaica though lol

 

[rhombus]

Have a great trip! I wouldn't recommend going skydiving in Jamaica though lol

or if you do avoid the local products :canabis::canabis:

 

[John A]

Have a great trip! I wouldn't recommend going skydiving in Jamaica though lol

Ha... duly noted.

Thanks guys.