Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Sneaky Feet]

Just bought HEM2 in Sunday. Pretty cool stuff! Quick question, what's a whale? Just a really big fish I'm assuming. It's not me btw. I shift between rock and loose aggressive. That really surprised me actually I thought I would have been considered a lot tighter. I think it's already paid for itself by opening my eyes to my own play.

 

[John A]

So in effect you 3bet 1/4 their stack to get 1.5 SPR
50BBs you 3Bet 12.5
40BBs you 3Bet 10
30BBs you 3Bet 7.5
not taking into account any limpers or blinds the above will always give you 1.5 SPR is the the correct/easiest way to do it.

Correct, but ideally you try and get it around 1, or just slightly over.

 

[John A]

Just bought HEM2 in Sunday. Pretty cool stuff! Quick question, what's a whale? Just a really big fish I'm assuming. It's not me btw. I shift between rock and loose aggressive. That really surprised me actually I thought I would have been considered a lot tighter. I think it's already paid for itself by opening my eyes to my own play.

Basically yes, just a really bad fish, and usually someone who doesn't mind putting money in the middle. Sometimes rich fish are called whales.

Yeah, HM2 will help a lot. Do you have leak buster?

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Basically yes, just a really bad fish, and usually someone who doesn't mind putting money in the middle. Sometimes rich fish are called whales.

Yeah, HM2 will help a lot. Do you have leak buster?

Not yet but that will be my next purchase. Once I get a handle on HEM2 I'll grab it. I really want to work on my play to get my number where they should be first. What's a decent aggression factor? Right now I'm at 4.1 give or take a tenth.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

One thing I really like about it is you can read notes made by others on villains. Is it possible to read notes made by others about yourself? I bet mine says major fish lol

 

[John A]

One thing I really like about it is you can read notes made by others on villains. Is it possible to read notes made by others about yourself? I bet mine says major fish lol

Mmmm... maybe you're talking about the trial notes made by notecaddy. You can't read anyone else's written notes on players.

A decent AF is ~2.8 - 4.4. Full ring and 6-max vary slightly.

 

[John A]

Quick Vol. II update. I stalled a bit on the workbook because of other obligations, but I've been digging back in. I'm about 35 pages in right now and it's looking pretty sweet. It's going to be a complete workbook style format, multiple choice quiz book with full detailed answers in the back. My goal is to get this out to you before I leave for my anniversary next month. It will be tight, and hopefully I can get some one spell and grammar checking it in about 2 weeks from now.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Mmmm... maybe you're talking about the trial notes made by notecaddy. You can't read anyone else's written notes on players.

A decent AF is ~2.8 - 4.4. Full ring and 6-max vary slightly.

That's just a trial? DOH! I might have to pick that up too then.

My AF is a little high then but should average out a bit with more hands as I play full ring and asume AF should be a little lower in full than with 6-max. I have less than 3G in hands in on the HUD so far.

Thanks!

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Quick Vol. II update. I stalled a bit on the workbook because of other obligations, but I've been digging back in. I'm about 35 pages in right now and it's looking pretty sweet. It's going to be a complete workbook style format, multiple choice quiz book with full detailed answers in the back. My goal is to get this out to you before I leave for my anniversary next month. It will be tight, and hopefully I can get some one spell and grammar checking it in about 2 weeks from now.

Looking forward to seeing it and happy early anniversary.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

I posted this in the brags and beats but for some reason it came up weird. Don't you hate it when this happens? This guy was a major fish (my HUD told me so lol). Every hand he was in he'd call to the river and had sucked out on others way too many times. This time I thought I had him! I bet light specifically to keep him in the hand.


pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

SB ($4.02)
BB ($2.34)
Hero (UTG) ($2.96)
UTG+1 ($1.74)
MP1 ($2)
MP2 ($2.07)
MP3 ($2)
CO ($2.60)
Button ($2.02)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

, A

Hero raises to $0.10, 6 folds, SB calls $0.09, BB calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.30) 8

, 7

, Q

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.10, SB raises to $0.30, BB calls $0.30, Hero calls $0.20

Turn: ($1.20) A

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.30, SB calls $0.30, BB calls $0.30

River: ($2.10) 10

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $2.10 | Rake: $0.07

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had A

, Q

(flush, Ace high).
BB didn't show
Hero didn't show A

, A

(three of a kind, Aces).
Outcome: SB won $2.03

 

[John A]

Bet more on the flop, and possibly 3-bet the flop. Bet a little more on the turn and multi-way I think the river check is appropriate.

 

[Fisi]

Quick Vol. II update. I stalled a bit on the workbook because of other obligations, but I've been digging back in. I'm about 35 pages in right now and it's looking pretty sweet. It's going to be a complete workbook style format, multiple choice quiz book with full detailed answers in the back. My goal is to get this out to you before I leave for my anniversary next month. It will be tight, and hopefully I can get some one spell and grammar checking it in about 2 weeks from now.

That's awesome! Really looking forward to it!

Also, that's a pretty sweet blog you started, subbed

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Bet more on the flop, and possibly 3-bet the flop. Bet a little more on the turn and multi-way I think the river check is appropriate.

Thanks John will do. Ya both guys were really fishy actually. And I see how a 4bet on the flop would have been a good play. If I did 4bet, should I shove the turn?

 

[John A]

That's awesome! Really looking forward to it!

Also, that's a pretty sweet blog you started, subbed

Thanks. It's going to get pretty opinionated, so hang in there.

 

[John A]

Thanks John will do. Ya both guys were really fishy actually. And I see how a 4bet on the flop would have been a good play. If I did 4bet, should I shove the turn?

Ya, it would actually be a 3-bet, not a 4-bet, but if you're not shoved on, then yes to a turn shove.

 

[John A]

We have point #1, which is make sure you're c-betting enough in position.

#2 - Limit your cold calling out of position with trouble hands and speculative hands.

Point #3. Being Lost on the Turn.

Point #4 - Don't play without initiative.

#5 - Not mixing in different lines from the blinds against steal attempts.

And on to...

#6 - Not value betting enough.

I think some people know and understand this, but implementing in real time doesn't always happen. When I coach I see a ton of missed value bets, mostly on the turn and river. So a simple rule to use is:

If my opponent isn't raising, then keep betting when you have a value hand. The weaker your opponent is, the wider your value betting range should become. So that can include middle and bottom pair against a lot of really bad opponents.

If your opponent is a tight regular, then this won't apply in most situations. But against weaker regulars, or fish, you need to have some aggressive value betting in order to win at a decent winrate.

 

[rhombus]

one of my weaknesses is value betting especially when the pot is a decent size im always afraid of the check raise shove especially on river.

I know SPR only applies on the flop but is there something similar for Turn or river i.e. if you bet the turn and and effectivve stacks are 2x Pot 3x Pot 4x Pot etc at what point do you fold to a shove on turn or river

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Perhaps this is just the stakes that I'm playing but I'm finding it difficult to play mid pairs for value. For an example I have 88 and bet 3bb pre in mid position and the button calls everyone else folds. Flop come 25J rainbow. I bet half the pot and get called. So far so good. Turn comes 6 suited so there's a draw and bet 2/3 the pot again and get called. River comes K off.....

This seems to happen a lot of the time. Now I've done my best to build value on the flop but honestly would rather they fold on the turn. More time than not it seems villain has K-rag and is willing to just call through and wait for the river.

Am I not betting enough? Should I bet more? And there could be 5or 6 players at the table that will do this so it's not like it happens rarely.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm bitching because I'm really not, I would like to know what the right line is here. I feel I've bet for value but value for villain lol

I would say this is probably one of my biggest leaks and unfortunately it happens quite often at 2nl where villain just wants to see the river because "OMG! I have a King!"

 

[rhombus]

Id struggle to value bet the river probabaly check call probably put him on raggy ace flush draw or pair like 6s or 7s

Just hope he didnt have KJs

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Id struggle to value bet the river probabaly check call probably put him on raggy ace flush draw or pair like 6s or 7s

Just hope he didnt have KJs

Exactly! And really, change out 88 for 77 99 1010 10J JQ JA and there are a lot of times this happens. Even if you only have 4 "OMG I have a king!" players that's a lot of value to lose.

 

[Figaroo2]

Exactly! And really, change out 88 for 77 99 1010 10J JQ JA and there are a lot of times this happens. Even if you only have 4 "OMG I have a king!" players that's a lot of value to lose.

Well imo whether you bet for value or not depends entirely on your read of your opponent and what range he is playing depending on his stats and how often he floats on the button. You have consider what type of player he is and how your stats will affect what he might call with. In your example I wouldnt be overly concerned with a K hitting the river. As you point out the only hand that helps is KJ and if he had that you were beat anyway.
If i get called twice on that board in a vacuum id expect him to have a J most of the time.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Well imo whether you bet for value or not depends entirely on your read of your opponent and what range he is playing depending on his stats and how often he floats on the button. You have consider what type of player he is and how your stats will affect what he might call with. In your example I wouldnt be overly concerned with a K hitting the river. As you point out the only hand that helps is KJ and if he had that you were beat anyway.
If i get called twice on that board in a vacuum id expect him to have a J most of the time.

I agree and I think perhaps this is more an issue with the level of play at 2nl. Why would one call through with K rag? I wouldn't but there are far too many that will. Just the other night there was a hand at my table, I wasn't in it but there was a flush draw a straight draw, a Q with no connections and one guy kept calling through to the river. Not raising just calling. He had AKo and was beaten by a straight. Now that's just plain old bad play but gives an example of the typical player at 2nl. You would think it would be easy to extract from these guys but because of my above example they suck out a ton. I'm going to try and move up to 5nl and see what happens. I know it's not a big jump but people may be more thoughtful of their cards vs the board when half the pot potentially could be 3 times that of 2nl even on a small pot.

Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying, I do believe that value betting is the right thing to do and John your wisdom has helped exponentially, this is again more about the level of play at 2nl.

 

[John A]

I agree and I think perhaps this is more an issue with the level of play at 2nl. Why would one call through with K rag? I wouldn't but there are far too many that will. Just the other night there was a hand at my table, I wasn't in it but there was a flush draw a straight draw, a Q with no connections and one guy kept calling through to the river. Not raising just calling. He had AKo and was beaten by a straight. Now that's just plain old bad play but gives an example of the typical player at 2nl. You would think it would be easy to extract from these guys but because of my above example they suck out a ton. I'm going to try and move up to 5nl and see what happens. I know it's not a big jump but people may be more thoughtful of their cards vs the board when half the pot potentially could be 3 times that of 2nl even on a small pot.

Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying, I do believe that value betting is the right thing to do and John your wisdom has helped exponentially, this is again more about the level of play at 2nl.

I'll have to go back and catch up, but just wanted to make a quick comment.

These guys you're talking about at 2 or 5nl should be super simple to play against for the exact reason you mentioned above. They just call. So you just keep betting until they raise, and if they raise, it's the easiest fold ever. You should play for maximum exploitative value by betting larger when you have big hands, and smaller when you have weaker hands. We want to keep this within reason, but I can show you examples of recent hands at 100 and 200nl where I do this against non-aggressive fish, and I can bluff for the minimum, extract value from tons of second best hands with my bet sizing, and get them to call down with bad draws against my strong hands with large bets.

Will they hit their hand sometimes? Of course, but if you have a value hand it pretty much illustrates my point #3. Would you rather be betting your hand and controlling the sizing of the pot, or check / calling against someone like that? You're not check / folding when you have a value hand, so experiment with different bet sizing based on the board texture and your hand strength. Focus on what second best hands you're looking to call based on your sizing.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

I'll have to go back and catch up, but just wanted to make a quick comment.

These guys you're talking about at 2 or 5nl should be super simple to play against for the exact reason you mentioned above. They just call. So you just keep betting until they raise, and if they raise, it's the easiest fold ever. You should play for maximum exploitative value by betting larger when you have big hands, and smaller when you have weaker hands. We want to keep this within reason, but I can show you examples of recent hands at 100 and 200nl where I do this against non-aggressive fish, and I can bluff for the minimum, extract value from tons of second best hands with my bet sizing, and get them to call down with bad draws against my strong hands with large bets.

Will they hit their hand sometimes? Of course, but if you have a value hand it pretty much illustrates my point #3. Would you rather be betting your hand and controlling the sizing of the pot, or check / calling against someone like that? You're not check / folding when you have a value hand, so experiment with different bet sizing based on the board texture and your hand strength. Focus on what second best hands you're looking to call based on your sizing.

Thanks for the comments John I appreciate that and I will start thinking about what second best hands I'm playing against and looking to get calls from.

As a secondary I'm having issues on the river with a missed straight or flush draw. I'll bet for value on the flop and turn, flop 1/2 to 2/3, turn the same depending on villian, then miss. Checking seems like a pretty clear sign that I was chasing and missed. Of course this is villain dependent but do you have any suggestions when this happens? Anyone?

Thanks.

 

[Fisi]

Thanks for the comments John I appreciate that and I will start thinking about what second best hands I'm playing against and looking to get calls from.

As a secondary I'm having issues on the river with a missed straight or flush draw. I'll bet for value on the flop and turn, flop 1/2 to 2/3, turn the same depending on villian, then miss. Checking seems like a pretty clear sign that I was chasing and missed. Of course this is villain dependent but do you have any suggestions when this happens? Anyone?

Thanks.

It depends on the river. If the draws missed and the river comes an overcard I would fire the 3rd barrel if I am not against a bad fish. If the board is low and the river is a low to medium card also (doesn't complete draws), then I would fire around a third to half pot if I thought our opponent has a lot of draws in his range. If the board was high and the river card was low, I am check-folding.