Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Rhinelander]

Hey Fellows! Thanks again John for doing this. I am trying to closely follow this thread. I am posting a few of my stats mainly for this month in which I played 11K hands so far . Hope I did it right and also hope that the sample size isn't wayyyy to small...

Cold Call with SC:


If you compare my CC Overall-Stats I think it becomes visible that I changed my style quiet a bit over the past few weeks. My overall stats are 19/14 for this month and before it was more like 26/19. Yes... a bit too much calling still.

CC Overall March 2014 (11k hands)


CC Alltime (31K Hands. In the time before this month I basically never played more than 1-2K hands/month)

 

[John A]

Welcome.... well great. Yeah, your current month seems like it will be better long term (in terms of raw CC numbers). Is this with the cold calling and trouble hands, or just cold calling? A big positive is you aren't doing it much from the SB which is really important. Keep posting and stay up on this part of your game. You'll need to keep getting more hands in, but if you have questions, just ask.

 

[Fisi]

I am currently trying to learn and use new concepts, and am playing only 2 tables at a time, so I don't really have much of a sample, as I play about 500 hands per day, but still:

Here are my cbet by position stats (last 10.000 hands)

And my cold calling stats, first overall, than OOP, and the hands I'm loosing the most with. (last 20.000 hands)

I guess I overestimate my skill and call too much from the button. OOP, there's obviously a lot yet to work on in the BB. Though a tiny sample, it appears the SC's and small pairs are the hands that are costing me the most, and I will try to limit cold calling with such hands.

I know the sample sizes are ridicolous, but I feel I am changing my game so much that the older data just wouldn't give an accurate description of my game

 

[John A]

Ok, that's great. Your c-betting looks pretty good. Small sample so can't put too much, but at least you're being more aggressive on the button (look at your success rate there).

Now with the cold calling, you want to do the trouble hand filters and things I posted here. Anyone have those that they can re-post? I poked through the thread but didn't see them. I'll look them up when I get back in, but if anyone has them that would be helpful.

 

[long_bong]

subbed in for the read

 

[Figaroo2]

Here was a tough river spot, thought about this and put him on his exact hand and when knowing this I stupidly called as I wanted to know if i was right...so much I can beat though.

regular 6 max 2c-4c on Pacific 888

Villain 29/22/2/0 over 40 hands

Villain is CO with $4.76 and limps 4c
Hero is on BTN showing 20/12/4/6 with $7.89
BTN KcKh raises to 12c
blinds fold CO calls 12c... pot 30c

flop Qc 10c 9c
CO checks, BTN bets 15c, CO calls...pot 60c

Turn 3s
CO checks, BTN bets 30c CO calls 30c pot ....$1.20 (Ok i'm putting him on Ac x at this point)

River Js (interesting card giving me a straight, which lets me beat any odd 2 pair combos... I wondering what size to bet the river when)
CO raises $4.15 all in.....

hmmmm every time I get burned when they shove here is the flopped flush. It has to be Ac with Jc or 8c or the J8 combined. can't be anything else so why do I call???

 

[Figaroo2]

On the bright side had a good weekend

I feel like its all coming together better now I've tightened up just a touch and stopped limping in the SB. Thanks alot for all your help John its made a big difference to my game.

 

[Aleksei]

Hey John! I've been following this thread but I haven't participated because I haven't been grinding. I still have barely any volume (maybe 700 hands a week for the foreseeable future), but I'm playing and I'm looking to apply the stuff I've learned here.

I'm playing 5NL Rush at Fulltilt, and it's basically just ridiculously weaktight, so I'm playing a kind of a laggy/smallbally style looking for a ton of fold equity from fairly inelastic bet/fold ranges. Some things from the book And this thread I'm incorporating:

-I'm 3betting/4betting light with roughly the range you recommended, though I'm doing it far more aggressively because in an environment like Rush it's harder for people to notice and adjust.

-I've minimized the number of hands that I play from the blinds. Since this is Rush and I don't currently own a HUD (can't afford one), I don't have reads on almost anyone. Thus my OOP flatting range is mostly limited to weak PPs I can set mine. When villain is short and doesn't have enough behind to setmine, I basically don't have an OOP flatting range; just a value 3bet and a light 3bet one.

-I'm cbetting a fairly high % of whiffed flops, maybe like 70%. I'd like to know though, under what circumstances do you *not* cbet? Other than the obvious completed-draw flops that everyone hits too hard.

-I'm making decent use of the stop-and-go technique to reverse float when I do flat OOP and miss.

A couple of other non standard things I'm doing on my own:

-I'm minraising rather than 3xing all but the super premium hands in my range, because it forces the nitty general population of Rush to either defend wider or hand me the blinds for cheap. I may start just minraising everything.

-Since I noticed that people play back very inelastic ranges, I'm making smaller bet sizings my standard. My 3bets are like 3-3.5x OOP and just 2.5x IP. Postflop I'll often fire the flop for 1/2 pot, and then if a scare card comes and I decide to rep it OTT I make it 2/3 to make it look more convincing (in case they didn't believe me the first time I can make it look like I was probing the flop then hit the turn hard).

-I'm 3betting basically anything that isn't garbage over a minraise, because those are mostly very weak and very capped so that repopping them is basically printing money.

Some leaks I'm working on fixing:

-I'm a recovering non-believer, and I seem to be having issues with value-cutting myself against very tight ranges with TPTK type hands. I need to refine how much value I can extract out of those types of hands. (And no, I'm not calling turn raises from full stacks with TPTK).

-I have basically no clue whatsoever what circumstances are good for firing a third barrel, for value OR as a bluff.

-I've made some stupid board reading mistakes, but there's not much to that particular leak save practice.

I'll post some hands tomorrow.

 

[John A]

Here was a tough river spot, thought about this and put him on his exact hand and when knowing this I stupidly called as I wanted to know if i was right...so much I can beat though.

regular 6 max 2c-4c on Pacific 888

Villain 29/22/2/0 over 40 hands

Villain is CO with $4.76 and limps 4c
Hero is on BTN showing 20/12/4/6 with $7.89
BTN KcKh raises to 12c
blinds fold CO calls 12c... pot 30c

flop Qc 10c 9c
CO checks, BTN bets 15c, CO calls...pot 60c

Turn 3s
CO checks, BTN bets 30c CO calls 30c pot ....$1.20 (Ok i'm putting him on Ac x at this point)

River Js (interesting card giving me a straight, which lets me beat any odd 2 pair combos... I wondering what size to bet the river when)
CO raises $4.15 all in.....

hmmmm every time I get burned when they shove here is the flopped flush. It has to be Ac with Jc or 8c or the J8 combined. can't be anything else so why do I call???

Most over jams at these stakes by someone who isn't a maniac will be for value. So just keep that in mind.

 

[John A]

I feel like its all coming together better now I've tightened up just a touch and stopped limping in the SB. Thanks alot for all your help John its made a big difference to my game.

You're welcome... you've been putting in some good work. You made a choice to dig in and get better, and you'll continue to see good results.

We still have more to do, and I'm going to continue to focus on important areas to work on.

 

[John A]

Hey John! I've been following this thread but I haven't participated because I haven't been grinding. I still have barely any volume (maybe 700 hands a week for the foreseeable future), but I'm playing and I'm looking to apply the stuff I've learned here.

I'm playing 5NL Rush at Fulltilt, and it's basically just ridiculously weaktight, so I'm playing a kind of a laggy/smallbally style looking for a ton of fold equity from fairly inelastic bet/fold ranges. Some things from the book And this thread I'm incorporating:

-I'm 3betting/4betting light with roughly the range you recommended, though I'm doing it far more aggressively because in an environment like Rush it's harder for people to notice and adjust.

Good, pick your spots and opponents well and you'll make some easy money.

-I've minimized the number of hands that I play from the blinds. Since this is Rush and I don't currently own a HUD (can't afford one), I don't have reads on almost anyone. Thus my OOP flatting range is mostly limited to weak PPs I can set mine. When villain is short and doesn't have enough behind to setmine, I basically don't have an OOP flatting range; just a value 3bet and a light 3bet one.

Sounds good. Yeah limit your flatting range, especially from the SB.

-I'm cbetting a fairly high % of whiffed flops, maybe like 70%. I'd like to know though, under what circumstances do you *not* cbet? Other than the obvious completed-draw flops that everyone hits too hard.

In position, just flops that are really mid coordinated and you don't have any great backdoor equity, and/or over cards, etc...

-I'm making decent use of the stop-and-go technique to reverse float when I do flat OOP and miss.

Awesome. I had one student tell me a couple of years this was like found gold since he'd never done it, and hadn't read any strategy about doing it. It works, especially if you flat out of the BB against an open button.

A couple of other non standard things I'm doing on my own:

-I'm minraising rather than 3xing all but the super premium hands in my range, because it forces the nitty general population of Rush to either defend wider or hand me the blinds for cheap. I may start just minraising everything.

If it's working for your game, then that's good. If they are nitty it's a good general strategy.

-Since I noticed that people play back very inelastic ranges, I'm making smaller bet sizings my standard. My 3bets are like 3-3.5x OOP and just 2.5x IP. Postflop I'll often fire the flop for 1/2 pot, and then if a scare card comes and I decide to rep it OTT I make it 2/3 to make it look more convincing (in case they didn't believe me the first time I can make it look like I was probing the flop then hit the turn hard).

Yeah, this is good sizing in those kinds of games.

-I'm 3betting basically anything that isn't garbage over a minraise, because those are mostly very weak and very capped so that repopping them is basically printing money.

Yes, this generally works well.

Some leaks I'm working on fixing:

-I'm a recovering non-believer, and I seem to be having issues with value-cutting myself against very tight ranges with TPTK type hands. I need to refine how much value I can extract out of those types of hands. (And no, I'm not calling turn raises from full stacks with TPTK).

-I have basically no clue whatsoever what circumstances are good for firing a third barrel, for value OR as a bluff.

-I've made some stupid board reading mistakes, but there's not much to that particular leak save practice.

I'll post some hands tomorrow.

It sounds good overall. Nice work!

Well, if your games are nitty, the number of value streets you're going to get will be typically 2 at most. So sometimes against these guys when you have top pair, you can c-bet, check turn, and value bet / call river (on non super draw heavy boards). At higher stakes this would be perceived as a strong line, but at lower stakes you can sometimes squeeze more value against tighter opponents who think you might be bluffing now and then you also pot control in case they go nuts on the river. But if they are nits like you say, then just make sure to listen to what they are telling you and believe them.

 

[John A]

Alright so point #3. Being Lost on the Turn.

I typically stop students when going over hands and ask them what their plan is from the flop on. The turn is generally the biggest mess. I guess that's why they say the turn is what separates the pretenders from the contenders.

So the first thing I get students to do is to make sure they are asking themselves one important question on the turn, which generally makes the rest of the hand MUCH easier. That question is:
If I check this turn, am I turning my hand into a bluff catcher or am I giving up on my hand?

Then add: Am I betting for value, or am I setting up another bluff on the river?

But the first question is most important for beginning players. You want to make sure you are getting the correct value from your hands, and that you know how to control the hand properly.

Most of the time you're going to have medium strength to really weak hands on the turn. You want to make sure you're playing those spots effectively. Let me give an example of what I mean by controlling the hand, and why you should be asking the above question.

You open JTs in the CO, and a player in the BB calls. Flop comes: Ks Th 7c. Your opponent checks, and you make a standard c-bet. The turn comes: 6c. Your opponent checks.

This is where you ask that question - If I check, am I turning my hand into a bluff catcher? You need to be clear about this question before you decide what you're doing. If you check in spots (and similar spots like this), then you should know either A) my opponent IS capable of bluffing, and I'm checking to control the pot and snap off a bluff or B) My opponent is not generally capable.

If the answer is B - then you need to know how bad your opponent is. The weaker they are, the more likely it is they should be.

If they fall somewhere in between, and you're NOT sure, then it's generally better to bet. Why? Because then you're just going to be guessing on the river, AND you will have lost control of the hand and how much you pay.

So say you bet a little over half on the turn, which in this case is ~8.5 bbs. If you are willing to call a bet of at least that on the river because you're somewhere in between on your read of your opponent, then it's better to bet yourself for a couple of reasons.
1) You set the price. If you bet the flop and turn, your opponent will generally check the river. Then you can decide to value bet again or check behind.
2) A percentage of the time in these marginal spots you can push out better hands. In this example, QT might sometimes fold.

If your opponent is capable of bluffing, and you're confident that you want to bluff catch, then just be clear on that. Keep in mind you don't know how much you'll be calling.

Lastly, if you're looking to bet the turn to setup a river bluff, make sure you have an opponent capable of folding (ir, not a sticky fish), and that you size your bets to make a good size river bluff that has good fold equity.

I hope that helps some people, as I've found just adding those questions has dramatically improved the confidence in people I've worked with. It might sound somewhat simple, but if you get in the habit of always asking yourself, it makes the rest of the hand that much easier to play.

Hope everyone has a great weekend.

 

[John A]

Fyi.. I also have a new HUD up for HM2 and PT4 you can check out. Instructional video, and pdf supplement with it as well.

http://acepokersolutions.com/Free_Poker_HUDs.php

 

[Sneaky Feet]

John something that I've been adding to my notes is if villain calls a high percentage of the time or if villain bets a large percentage of the time. This may seem like a silly question but if your opponent bets a larger percentage of the time and you end up with a light hand, is this a good opportunity to implement 4betting again or better to move off the hand and wait for a better position.

The reason I ask is I had this happen in a hand last night and I'm not sure if I did the right thing here. Regardless of the result was this too agressive?

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

UTG+1 ($5.29)
MP1 ($5.21)
MP2 ($2.86)
MP3 ($1.58)
CO ($0.52)
Button ($0.94)
SB ($0.78)
Hero (BB) ($3.71)
UTG ($5)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, 9

4 folds, MP3 raises to $0.10, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.26, MP3 calls $0.16

Flop: ($0.53) 7

, 10

, 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, MP3 raises to $0.40, Hero raises to $0.80, MP3 calls $0.40

Turn: ($2.13) 5

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.52, MP3 calls $0.52 (All-In)

River: ($3.17) 6

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.17 | Rake: $0.11

Results below:

Spoiler

Hero had A

, 9

(flush, Ace high).
MP3 had A

, Q

(high card, Ace).
Outcome: Hero won $3.06

I actually wasn't sure about playing this hand but thought I might be able to steal the pot so that's why I 3bet. It's not fun playing these out of position lol

Thanks.

 

[Figaroo2]

Sneaky
His 1.58 stack size looks a bit fishy so 3 betting is probably ok
Lets start by asking....Would you fold in position to a raise from the bb of 16c having already put 10c in?..
You are oop with a marginal hand, you should bet much bigger here, x3.5 to x4 would be better if you are looking to steal.
Then if you are called, lead out with a larger cbet on the flop, if he raises you can safely fold your marginal hand. Your flop cbet 20c into a 53c pot is way too small. 40c at least is required to blow him off any draws. You have shown strength preflop let him know you are serious... you are saying you have an overpair. He will have trouble calling the flop at that point without a hand.
The flop re-raise, try to think about what you were trying to achieve with this bet. From the outside it looks like confusion from being re-raised and not really knowing what to do. The bet sizing appears wrong considering your cards, its blind aggression with no obvious purpose.
Bet when you have the best hand or to bluff.....You are likely behind so this bet is a bluff, but its too small to chase away someone who has re-raised your flop bet.
Its really all in or call at this point.
You are relying on hitting your flush so when he raises you 20c into a pot of 70ish and is still giving you half decent pot odds take them and be grateful. Your flop re-raise just pot committed him so what was your plan if you missed the turn?

 

[John A]

Yeah, I'd fold pre-flop. 5x open and you'll be OOP against someone who I guess you're saying is aggressive isn't a good spot to be in. There will be much better spots. If he had opened in later position, I'd like the 3-bet more.

As played, as far as your flop question, I mean this is where you need to shove or fold once you're min raised. You have some equity and maybe at least a little bit of fold equity.

 

[John A]

Did anyone check out my hitman hud yet? There's a video and pdf with it. Just curious on thoughts / feedback. It's what I've used for quite some time. I looked at some other setups as the badge craze went into effect, but didn't find things useful enough. I'm kind of curious what people use / think.

 

[Figaroo2]

John I watched the video and downloaded your hud. I was intetested that you used aggression % as opposed to ag factor I will have to look at it again. Unfortunately Ive been tucked up at work all weekend and havent played.
Personally I like to have a row for aggression stats on all three streets as it gives good insight into how often a player barrels. I see several players with high cbet and ag on the flop but then very low agg on the turn. They are easily float. More later office meeting.....

 

[John A]

John I watched the video and downloaded your hud. I was intetested that you used aggression % as opposed to ag factor I will have to look at it again. Unfortunately Ive been tucked up at work all weekend and havent played.
Personally I like to have a row for aggression stats on all three streets as it gives good insight into how often a player barrels. I see several players with high cbet and ag on the flop but then very low agg on the turn. They are easily float. More later office meeting.....

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I explain though that you can still find those players with the one and done profile. That's why I use agg% because it's a better aggression indicator than factor. Also, AF on later streets rarely is applicable because of statistical variation. You need about 50k hands or so on your opponents for those to begin to be reliable data. I used to use street by street aggression as well. I think it's in the leak buster HUD. But generally I've never used it myself because even in higher stake games the conjunction of the numbers I use create the profiles I need the most.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Sneaky
His 1.58 stack size looks a bit fishy so 3 betting is probably ok
Lets start by asking....Would you fold in position to a raise from the bb of 16c having already put 10c in?..
You are oop with a marginal hand, you should bet much bigger here, x3.5 to x4 would be better if you are looking to steal.
Then if you are called, lead out with a larger cbet on the flop, if he raises you can safely fold your marginal hand. Your flop cbet 20c into a 53c pot is way too small. 40c at least is required to blow him off any draws. You have shown strength preflop let him know you are serious... you are saying you have an overpair. He will have trouble calling the flop at that point without a hand.
The flop re-raise, try to think about what you were trying to achieve with this bet. From the outside it looks like confusion from being re-raised and not really knowing what to do. The bet sizing appears wrong considering your cards, its blind aggression with no obvious purpose.
Bet when you have the best hand or to bluff.....You are likely behind so this bet is a bluff, but its too small to chase away someone who has re-raised your flop bet.
Its really all in or call at this point.
You are relying on hitting your flush so when he raises you 20c into a pot of 70ish and is still giving you half decent pot odds take them and be grateful. Your flop re-raise just pot committed him so what was your plan if you missed the turn?

Awesome. This makes complete sense and I see what you're saying. Thanks for this response. I definitely have to work on my bet sizing on the flop and turn. And preflop too lol. I already feel like I'm being quite aggressive with my bet sizes but I guess not aggressive enough yet.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Yeah, I'd fold pre-flop. 5x open and you'll be OOP against someone who I guess you're saying is aggressive isn't a good spot to be in. There will be much better spots. If he had opened in later position, I'd like the 3-bet more.

As played, as far as your flop question, I mean this is where you need to shove or fold once you're min raised. You have some equity and maybe at least a little bit of fold equity.

So if he would have been in the cut off or button this would have been a better place to bet 5x (so $.50!) villain's bet to try and steal? That just seems like so much!

I definitely see how if I would have bet bigger on the flop it may have pushed villain off a reraise to either a call or fold. And like you have said if he shoves then it's an easy fold.

Thanks for your insight. There's so much to learn.

 

[Fisi]

Alright so point #3. Being Lost on the Turn.

I typically stop students when going over hands and ask them what their plan is from the flop on. The turn is generally the biggest mess. I guess that's why they say the turn is what separates the pretenders from the contenders.

So the first thing I get students to do is to make sure they are asking themselves one important question on the turn, which generally makes the rest of the hand MUCH easier. That question is:
If I check this turn, am I turning my hand into a bluff catcher or am I giving up on my hand?

Then add: Am I betting for value, or am I setting up another bluff on the river?

But the first question is most important for beginning players. You want to make sure you are getting the correct value from your hands, and that you know how to control the hand properly.

Most of the time you're going to have medium strength to really weak hands on the turn. You want to make sure you're playing those spots effectively. Let me give an example of what I mean by controlling the hand, and why you should be asking the above question.

You open JTs in the CO, and a player in the BB calls. Flop comes: Ks Th 7c. Your opponent checks, and you make a standard c-bet. The turn comes: 6c. Your opponent checks.

This is where you ask that question - If I check, am I turning my hand into a bluff catcher? You need to be clear about this question before you decide what you're doing. If you check in spots (and similar spots like this), then you should know either A) my opponent IS capable of bluffing, and I'm checking to control the pot and snap off a bluff or B) My opponent is not generally capable.

If the answer is B - then you need to know how bad your opponent is. The weaker they are, the more likely it is they should be.

If they fall somewhere in between, and you're NOT sure, then it's generally better to bet. Why? Because then you're just going to be guessing on the river, AND you will have lost control of the hand and how much you pay.

So say you bet a little over half on the turn, which in this case is ~8.5 bbs. If you are willing to call a bet of at least that on the river because you're somewhere in between on your read of your opponent, then it's better to bet yourself for a couple of reasons.
1) You set the price. If you bet the flop and turn, your opponent will generally check the river. Then you can decide to value bet again or check behind.
2) A percentage of the time in these marginal spots you can push out better hands. In this example, QT might sometimes fold.

If your opponent is capable of bluffing, and you're confident that you want to bluff catch, then just be clear on that. Keep in mind you don't know how much you'll be calling.

Lastly, if you're looking to bet the turn to setup a river bluff, make sure you have an opponent capable of folding (ir, not a sticky fish), and that you size your bets to make a good size river bluff that has good fold equity.

I hope that helps some people, as I've found just adding those questions has dramatically improved the confidence in people I've worked with. It might sound somewhat simple, but if you get in the habit of always asking yourself, it makes the rest of the hand that much easier to play.

Hope everyone has a great weekend.

This is great advice. I noticed that I was making such mistakes frequently when playing too ABC and too many tables. Once I started playing fewer tables and formulating a plan through the whole hand it really made a big difference. Anyway, been away for the weekend, so here are the filters for OOP play that we discussed a while back if anyone is still interested.
http://acepokersolutions.com/files/Flat call OOP.filter

The ones for blind play are on post #230, can't seem to be able to get proper links copied

 

[Fisi]

The flop re-raise, try to think about what you were trying to achieve with this bet. From the outside it looks like confusion from being re-raised and not really knowing what to do. The bet sizing appears wrong considering your cards, its blind aggression with no obvious purpose.
Bet when you have the best hand or to bluff.....You are likely behind so this bet is a bluff, but its too small to chase away someone who has re-raised your flop bet.
Its really all in or call at this point.
You are relying on hitting your flush so when he raises you 20c into a pot of 70ish and is still giving you half decent pot odds take them and be grateful. Your flop re-raise just pot committed him so what was your plan if you missed the turn?

I don't see anything wrong with shoving here really. Judging by his stack he seems like a fishy player and we have the nut flush draw + the ace probably counts as an out too. I guess we will have 40% + equity mostly, so I think folding isn't an option here really. The min-raise won't realize any fold equity, so shoving is best here if you ask me.

 

[Fisi]

Did anyone check out my hitman hud yet? There's a video and pdf with it. Just curious on thoughts / feedback. It's what I've used for quite some time. I looked at some other setups as the badge craze went into effect, but didn't find things useful enough. I'm kind of curious what people use / think.

Definately will check it out and give some feedback. The one I use is set up like this:

Name/Total hands
VPIP/PFR/AF/WTSD
3-bet/Fold to 3-bet/Cbet/ Fold to Cbet
RFI CO/RFI BTN/RFI SB
Fold to steal from SB/ 3-bet steal from SB/Fold to steal from BB/3-bet steal from BB

I feel like it gives a pretty good idea about one's game when defending blinds and stealing. I guess you're playing back with light ranges here most often, so it helps me to get a better idea of my opponent's game in these spots.

 

[Figaroo2]

John
Just a small thing but in the PDF you have used nutball header twice... nits grandma a nutball!
I have now watched these two videos in full. More terrific free training, John you are a diamond. I have posted a link in my twitter and facebook accounts.
I managed to wipe all my hud settings last week so another big help that I can just download your hitman hud, thank you.
I haven't done any volume in the last week due to work. http://www.highstakesdb.com/4611-poker-player-mehmet-hassan-beaten-to-death-in-london-flat.aspx
I will feedback on the hud when i've had a decent usage.