F
Fisi
Rock Star
Silver Level
Sure, you want to incorporate leverage and risk the least ammount of money possible, since the opponents on micros and probably even some small stakes won't really have a 4-bet calling range and will play 5-bet or fold, so you won't really acomplish anything if you 4-bet bluff any bigger than the minimum ammount required.
John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Yes, and in some of your micro games, 4-betting bluffing will not be very profitable. You're going to want to just focus on in the few regs who do actually have 3-bet bluffs in their 3-bet range (or a more depolarized 3-bet range), and situations where they will 3-bet the most of that range. IE, you open button, and BB 3-bets.
F
Fisi
Rock Star
Silver Level
F
Fisi
Rock Star
Silver Level
The ideal spots are the ones where our opponents will have the widest 3-betting ranges, and won't defend them enough against 4-bets. The one that happens most often is when a reg, who is an active defender 3-bets your steal attempt, when he is in the BB and you are in the button. Other good spots are if he 3-bets your steal attempt when he is in the SB and he defends his SB by 3-beting often, or if he 3-bets from the button, after you open in the cutoff and he has high 3-beting stats.
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sidgucci
Enthusiast
Silver Level
These are the typed notes I have in my excel poker workbook (they are probably copied notes from your e-book).......but here's what I have for 4B Bluffing.......
REASONS TO 4-BET BLUFF:
KEY STAT: OPPONENT 3B% > 8%
DEFEND YOUR OPENING RAISE:
If opening a somewhat wider range, then you should expect to get 3-Bet more. If you simply fold only the highest end of your range, you're going to get exploited badly.
ADD DEPTH TO YOUR 4BET RANGE:
May get your opponent to react poorly and 5-Bet shove with the wrong ranges against you. If you are only 4B with 2% of your range, then opponents can play near perfect vs you.
PUSH OPPONENTS OFF BETTER HAND:
If you pick your spots & hands well, you can get players to fold hands like AQo TT JJ or even better depending on how badly they adjust to your 4Bet Range.
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sidgucci
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Additionally, I have the following notes:
At small and mid-stakes games, your 4-bets should be FOR VALUE & NOT AS BLUFFS.
When really deep 4-betting in position is very profitable.
In more aggressive mid-stake games, 4-betting smaller with wider range can be profitable in the right spots.
The more aggressive the game, the smaller you should make your 4-bets
(especially at 6 max)
At small and mid-stakes games, your 4-bets should be FOR VALUE & NOT AS BLUFFS.
When really deep 4-betting in position is very profitable.
In more aggressive mid-stake games, 4-betting smaller with wider range can be profitable in the right spots.
The more aggressive the game, the smaller you should make your 4-bets
(especially at 6 max)
John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Yup, looks good.
Yeah, my hope is that the workbook will solidify this, but it looks like you've got most of it down. Good work.
Just keep in mind that in some of the micro games, you won't need to apply much 4-bet depth if your opponents aren't 3-betting wide enough. However, even today, a lot of the games will have some regs that you can exploit in this area.
Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
4 bet bluff good example
poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Hero (MP): $12.34 (246.8 bb)
CO: $8 (160 bb)
BTN: $5.12 (102.4 bb) Button is showing 4 stars (gold player) a little unusual at these stakes I had 148 hands on him vpip 26 PFR 18 AG 11 3bet 6.7 so decent stats but he had been unlucky as he had been felted twice by the fish (SB) who drew out on him and then took him again with AA v AK allin pre
I had previously 4 bet him for value as well already and showed him AA after he had got done by the SB AA hand.
We were queuing to get into hands with the SB.
SB: $29.69 (593.8 bb)
BB: $8.70 (174 bb)
Preflop: Hero is MP with Ks 7s
Hero raises to $0.15, CO folds, BTN raises to $0.45, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.35, BTN calls $0.90
Flop: ($2.77) 5s 8s 9h (2 players) good flop for me as a bonus.
Hero bets $1.80, BTN folds
Results: $2.77 pot ($0.11 rake)
Final Board: 5s 8s 9h
Hero mucked Ks 7s and won $2.66 ($1.31 net)
BTN mucked and lost (-$1.35 net)
26 big blinds in the bank thank you.
poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Hero (MP): $12.34 (246.8 bb)
CO: $8 (160 bb)
BTN: $5.12 (102.4 bb) Button is showing 4 stars (gold player) a little unusual at these stakes I had 148 hands on him vpip 26 PFR 18 AG 11 3bet 6.7 so decent stats but he had been unlucky as he had been felted twice by the fish (SB) who drew out on him and then took him again with AA v AK allin pre
I had previously 4 bet him for value as well already and showed him AA after he had got done by the SB AA hand.
We were queuing to get into hands with the SB.
SB: $29.69 (593.8 bb)
BB: $8.70 (174 bb)
Preflop: Hero is MP with Ks 7s
Hero raises to $0.15, CO folds, BTN raises to $0.45, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.35, BTN calls $0.90
Flop: ($2.77) 5s 8s 9h (2 players) good flop for me as a bonus.
Hero bets $1.80, BTN folds
Results: $2.77 pot ($0.11 rake)
Final Board: 5s 8s 9h
Hero mucked Ks 7s and won $2.66 ($1.31 net)
BTN mucked and lost (-$1.35 net)
26 big blinds in the bank thank you.
John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Yeah, I hear you, but we all make mistakes, kick the nearest pregnant cat, and move on my friend.
Kidding... I love pussy cats.
It's good that you are aware now that it is a mistake, and you're actively avoiding them going forward... we hope.
John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
That's a little loose to open, but at least you took advantage of the situation. Just make sure not to over do it. Don't want anyone saying I ruined their game.
John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
So here are some PT filters we're going to use for some of the leak process we're going to go through in this thread. If you have PT4, then you can download them individually or click the download all at the bottom. Download: Pokertrack Filters
I haven't had time to make the HM2 ones yet. Poker tracker is a little more difficult to do, so thought it would be better to just give them to you. HM2 are pretty easy to setup yourself.
Any ways, the goal if you're reading from this point forward is to make you a really good cash game player. If you get really good at cash games, with some really minor adjustments, you'll kill tournaments as well. So it's going to apply to both, even if you have an affinity to one over the other.
I haven't had time to make the HM2 ones yet. Poker tracker is a little more difficult to do, so thought it would be better to just give them to you. HM2 are pretty easy to setup yourself.
Any ways, the goal if you're reading from this point forward is to make you a really good cash game player. If you get really good at cash games, with some really minor adjustments, you'll kill tournaments as well. So it's going to apply to both, even if you have an affinity to one over the other.
John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
How do you like the new beta so far?
So the pop-out menu for the hand column isn't working for you though correct? That's pretty strange, but good to know.
Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
PokerSoftware.com Congrats to Bruce Figg (figaroo2), this week's winner of a Leak Buster license. Thanks to everyone who responded.
John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
After 7 years of poker coaching on and off, I've seen the same common mistakes and issues players have, whether they are slight losing players, slight winning players, or even people who are winning at a high winrate. I'm going to list those out in here one by one. This is basically a blueprint for becoming a good player. I'll post a graph or two from players who have followed this formula and turned their games around, or increased their winrate. So, let's begin with the easiest things first.
1) Not continuation betting enough in position in single raised pots. This would seem pretty basic and common sense. However, this is an extremely common trend. Either the continuation betting is higher OOP somewhere else on the table, or the percentage is just super low. A good continuation bet % on the button is somewhere between 70-84%.
Now, a couple of important things about this though.
1) So c-bet success goes up the further you get in position. So if you're normal c-bet success in your games is say 40%, then your c-bet success rate in position, on average, will be 6-8% higher. And it will be roughly that same drop (slightly less) OOP.
2) Generally speaking in most games, if you c-bet more, your c-bet success will not diminish. Why? People aren't really exploiting this enough still. There are more people floating, and not folding, but it's those same % of people, and in general as you c-bet more this will not change. It might go down by 1-2% tops, but generally it will not move at all.
3) The more you c-bet, the more it will change your turn dynamics. So this is something you need to keep in mind about your overall game strategy. Checking with a strong A high on rag boards, planning to call a turn bet is fine in some spots, as long as you're picking your opponents and boards well. Otherwise it is just better to c-bet with these hands.
4) C-betting more in position sets up more profitable double barrels. Turn c-bet success generally drops to about 33-37% on average. So keep this in mind with sizing, and what kind of equity you turn.
Stake level Adjustments
Now with micro stakes, maybe I should even call it nano stakes, you're going to have those people who will never fold. So you might be thinking, why the hell should I c-bet more and turn barrel more? First off, don't go crazy, you also want to make sure you're turn barreling the correct boards. But in general a lot of these guys will be Look-up artists. If you remember from the Polished Poker chapter on making notes and reads, there's a lot more of these guys then you're probably noticing if you aren't c-betting and barreling enough. A ton of these guys will call with A-Q high hands, but fold to second barrels on the right boards. So what do I mean by right boards?
You open QcJc in MP, and get a call in the CO and see the flop heads up. The flop is 2c6s5h. You bet, and get called. You're pretty much always going to be called in this spot with a really wide range of hands. But with your backdoor draw and overs, you're going to be looking at a lot of bad turn cards for your opponents on a 6 high board. Unless the board pairs, you should fire just about any turn card and expect a fold a good % of the time. Even if it does pair, but it brings something like the 6c or 5c, then you should still barrel for obvious reasons. You have some FE and equity in your hand.
C-bet % by position (from my last ~140k hands)
A couple of things to note. Your c-bet % might be slightly higher from the BB. That's ok, simply because your PFR is likely going to be low from there so your range of strong hands will be a lot higher. However the success rate is high on the button even though I'm playing and raising the most hands from there. It's common sense, but a lot of people aren't doing this enough, and it's just leaving money on the table.
Even if c-betting isn't a major part of your strategy, make sure your positional numbers make sense. Something like the above. You don't have to c-bet a ton (I keep a good balance), but you want your positional numbers to increase and like I said, at least 70%+ on the button. I open 53% of buttons and c-bet the highest from there. I play a slightly different game then some regs do because I cold call a little more in the games I'm in now. That's not something I'd typically do at 400nl+.
Student Graph from the other day. This is someone on that other board (2+2), and they sent me this a couple of days ago. We worked on about 8 of the things I'm going to talk about in this thread. I think he went from ~ 2bb/100 to over 12bb/100 winner. Not a huge sample yet, but you can see his redline and his game, and understanding of the situations is, and I quote, "extremely clear. I'm comfortable and know exactly what I'm doing in each situation now."
Before
After
Is he all the way there yet? No. But a huge improvement in his redline and profits.
So this is part 1 of this strategy. Use the Polished Poker section on notes and reads to brush up on player typing too. This is important in c-betting and barreling.
1) Not continuation betting enough in position in single raised pots. This would seem pretty basic and common sense. However, this is an extremely common trend. Either the continuation betting is higher OOP somewhere else on the table, or the percentage is just super low. A good continuation bet % on the button is somewhere between 70-84%.
Now, a couple of important things about this though.
1) So c-bet success goes up the further you get in position. So if you're normal c-bet success in your games is say 40%, then your c-bet success rate in position, on average, will be 6-8% higher. And it will be roughly that same drop (slightly less) OOP.
2) Generally speaking in most games, if you c-bet more, your c-bet success will not diminish. Why? People aren't really exploiting this enough still. There are more people floating, and not folding, but it's those same % of people, and in general as you c-bet more this will not change. It might go down by 1-2% tops, but generally it will not move at all.
3) The more you c-bet, the more it will change your turn dynamics. So this is something you need to keep in mind about your overall game strategy. Checking with a strong A high on rag boards, planning to call a turn bet is fine in some spots, as long as you're picking your opponents and boards well. Otherwise it is just better to c-bet with these hands.
4) C-betting more in position sets up more profitable double barrels. Turn c-bet success generally drops to about 33-37% on average. So keep this in mind with sizing, and what kind of equity you turn.
Stake level Adjustments
Now with micro stakes, maybe I should even call it nano stakes, you're going to have those people who will never fold. So you might be thinking, why the hell should I c-bet more and turn barrel more? First off, don't go crazy, you also want to make sure you're turn barreling the correct boards. But in general a lot of these guys will be Look-up artists. If you remember from the Polished Poker chapter on making notes and reads, there's a lot more of these guys then you're probably noticing if you aren't c-betting and barreling enough. A ton of these guys will call with A-Q high hands, but fold to second barrels on the right boards. So what do I mean by right boards?
You open QcJc in MP, and get a call in the CO and see the flop heads up. The flop is 2c6s5h. You bet, and get called. You're pretty much always going to be called in this spot with a really wide range of hands. But with your backdoor draw and overs, you're going to be looking at a lot of bad turn cards for your opponents on a 6 high board. Unless the board pairs, you should fire just about any turn card and expect a fold a good % of the time. Even if it does pair, but it brings something like the 6c or 5c, then you should still barrel for obvious reasons. You have some FE and equity in your hand.
C-bet % by position (from my last ~140k hands)
A couple of things to note. Your c-bet % might be slightly higher from the BB. That's ok, simply because your PFR is likely going to be low from there so your range of strong hands will be a lot higher. However the success rate is high on the button even though I'm playing and raising the most hands from there. It's common sense, but a lot of people aren't doing this enough, and it's just leaving money on the table.
Even if c-betting isn't a major part of your strategy, make sure your positional numbers make sense. Something like the above. You don't have to c-bet a ton (I keep a good balance), but you want your positional numbers to increase and like I said, at least 70%+ on the button. I open 53% of buttons and c-bet the highest from there. I play a slightly different game then some regs do because I cold call a little more in the games I'm in now. That's not something I'd typically do at 400nl+.
Student Graph from the other day. This is someone on that other board (2+2), and they sent me this a couple of days ago. We worked on about 8 of the things I'm going to talk about in this thread. I think he went from ~ 2bb/100 to over 12bb/100 winner. Not a huge sample yet, but you can see his redline and his game, and understanding of the situations is, and I quote, "extremely clear. I'm comfortable and know exactly what I'm doing in each situation now."
Before
After
Is he all the way there yet? No. But a huge improvement in his redline and profits.
So this is part 1 of this strategy. Use the Polished Poker section on notes and reads to brush up on player typing too. This is important in c-betting and barreling.
nabmom
Community Guide
Community Guide
John,
I can't even begin to describe the incredible value that you are adding to Cardschat with this thread.
Thank you so much for your time and energy in managing this thread and all your insight and experience. We are so lucky to have you as a member of this forum!
S
sidgucci
Enthusiast
Silver Level
As an owner of Holdem Manager2, I read in one of the news feeds that the creator of LeakBuster was offering a free e-book and coaching thread at CardsChat. Prior to that day, I never heard of CardsChat. I am blessed that I didn't miss this offer and can't express enough how much John has inspired me to improve my poker game. I played for several years and knew there was something missing from my game. Since reading Polished Poker, training on the Ace Poker Solutions Equity Trainer, and diving into the content on LeakBuster, I realized quickly that my game needed a lot of attention and that I was not anywhere close to being a good poker player. I have a lot of faith and confidence that I will improve drastically with the assistance of John and CardsChat. I am very grateful and thank you! [QUOTE[/QUOTE]
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sidgucci
Enthusiast
Silver Level
You are going to LOVE Leak Buster.
S
Sneaky Feet
Visionary
Silver Level
I'm not sure of what my percentages are but I can say that c-betting works a high percentage of the time at nano. There are a few passive players that you have to watch out for on certain flops but even against Tight Passive players c-betting works a higher percentage of the time than it doesn't. I would say I could still increase my c-bet percentage but it's probably close to 55-60%. This may be the wrong way of looking at it but the amount of pots won by c-betting vs lost is far out weighed. That's why, like you say John, taking notes on players helps for following sessions.
Just thought I'd add my bb (2 cents)
Thanks again John for your knowledge.
Just thought I'd add my bb (2 cents)
Thanks again John for your knowledge.
John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Thanks, you're going to make me blush. lol
Like I said from the start, it's a great learning experience for us all, including me. This is how you get good at something, by discussing it, teaching it, re-thinking it. It's enjoyable to hear and watch success stories.
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John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
You've been very supportive and thrown a lot of kind words my way. It's appreciated, and I'm honored to be a part of your poker journey in some small way.