Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Sneaky Feet]

If your opponent is 4-betting 4% of the time overall, you can safely fold most hands and assume there is no 4-bet bluffing range until proven otherwise.

Awesome thanks Sidgucci.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

John, just an update. Since implementing your training my bank roll has started to grow quite consistently. In last night's session I pulled in 166% of my buy in. That was in about 45 minutes. Also, I don't want to anger the poker gods here but, every hand that I was in I won. I didnt muck or fold once.

I'd say your training is working! I just wanted to say thanks

 

[John A]

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying about being able to gauge your opponents bluff range. If one is to 4-bet approximately 4% of the time regardless of position, how does one put the opponent on a bluff range?

By calling or re-raising and playing the hand out?

Say X reg has 4% 3-bet.
I'm referring to common positional dynamics. A reg opens on the button, a reg in the BB 3-bets. The regs 4-betting range is going to be much wider in this dynamic than in other situations.

That's all I was referring to.

 

[John A]

John, just an update. Since implementing your training my bank roll has started to grow quite consistently. In last night's session I pulled in 166% of my buy in. That was in about 45 minutes. Also, I don't want to anger the poker gods here but, every hand that I was in I won. I didnt muck or fold once.

I'd say your training is working! I just wanted to say thanks

Good to hear man. You put the work in, you're going to see the results. Congrats.

I love hearing the success stories. Got on in e-mail yesterday that was pretty impressive. Guy was a winning reg at ~ 2.5bb/100 and is now over 8bb/100 over 80k hands at 50nl. Always good to hear.

Do you guys understand what 4-bet range is in HM (I think PT has this too right?)?

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Say X reg has 4% 3-bet.
I'm referring to common positional dynamics. A reg opens on the button, a reg in the BB 3-bets. The regs 4-betting range is going to be much wider in this dynamic than in other situations.

That's all I was referring to.

Understood thanks John.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Good to hear man. You put the work in, you're going to see the results. Congrats.

I love hearing the success stories. Got on in e-mail yesterday that was pretty impressive. Guy was a winning reg at ~ 2.5bb/100 and is now over 8bb/100 over 80k hands at 50nl. Always good to hear.

Do you guys understand what 4-bet range is in HM (I think PT has this too right?)?

4-bet range is understood.

I do have another question regarding my comment though. This may sound like a dumb question (don't worry I'm full of them) but since I didn't loose a hand that I played, can this mean that I'm still too tight? The table was very passive but I was a little surprised at winning every hand.

 

[John A]

4-bet range is understood.

I do have another question regarding my comment though. This may sound like a dumb question (don't worry I'm full of them) but since I didn't loose a hand that I played, can this mean that I'm still too tight? The table was very passive but I was a little surprised at winning every hand.

Ok, just asking because I don't think most people actually understand it. I think they believe if 4-bet range is 4%, they think opponent is 4-betting 4% of their range, and that's not correct. It's actually a ratio of how often someone is opening their entire range at that position, by how often they 4-bet that range. So if someone opens 20% and their 4bet range is 4%, then they are 4-betting 8% of their entire range in that situation. So there's going to be a good amount of bluffs in that case.

To your other question, that's kind of impossible for me to answer. I don't know how often you were playing hands, or what other dynamics were going on. I'd say if you suspect that's the case, then there's probably some truth there, but I couldn't say for sure.

 

[Fisi]

Ok, just asking because I don't think most people actually understand it. I think they believe if 4-bet range is 4%, they think opponent is 4-betting 4% of their range, and that's not correct. It's actually a ratio of how often someone is opening their entire range at that position, by how often they 4-bet that range. So if someone opens 20% and their 4bet range is 4%, then they are 4-betting 8% of their entire range in that situation. So there's going to be a good amount of bluffs in that case.

I always tought that 4-bet range represents the actual range, so thanks for clearing that up! However, me not being a math guy at all, I find this kind of strange. Shouldn't their actual range in this example be 0,8%? (Actual 4-bet range: opening range x 4-bet range = 0,2% x 0,04% = 0,008?)

 

[Sneaky Feet]

I always tought that 4-bet range represents the actual range, so thanks for clearing that up! However, me not being a math guy at all, I find this kind of strange. Shouldn't their actual range in this example be 0,8%? (Actual 4-bet range: opening range x 4-bet range = 0,2% x 0,04% = 0,008?)

And I understood this differently as well. I thought it meant 4-betting your 20% opening range 4% of the time. So if you play your range 100 times, 4 times out of 100 one would 4-bet. This did seem a little off to me considering in 100 hands one should see even the top 6% of ones opening range more than 4 times in 100. Not a math guy myself either.

 

[John A]

I always tought that 4-bet range represents the actual range, so thanks for clearing that up! However, me not being a math guy at all, I find this kind of strange. Shouldn't their actual range in this example be 0,8%? (Actual 4-bet range: opening range x 4-bet range = 0,2% x 0,04% = 0,008?)

That would be correct. I misspoke. It's 4-bet% X raise first in % = 4-bet range. So if someone is opening 35% from CO and their 4-bet% is 16, then 4-bet range for that position would = 5.6. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Fisi]

That would be correct. I misspoke. It's 4-bet% X raise first in % = 4-bet range. So if someone is opening 35% from CO and their 4-bet% is 16, then 4-bet range for that position would = 5.6. Sorry for the confusion.

OK, thanks! Anyways, Holdem' manager's popup displays the already calculated 4bet range by positions, since it's value is normally between 2 and 5 right? Also, how big of a sample do you need generally before you start making any 5-bet bluffs if you have no specific reads?

 

[Sneaky Feet]

I've tried to 4-bet 4 times in the last couple days and it doesn't seem to be working too well for me. The first time villain folded, the next 2 times I was shoved on and had to fold out. The last time which just happened I got beaten on the river. Not having a lot of fun with 4betting currently.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Here's the my last attempt at a 4bet. Should I have shoved on the flop? I'm not really sure what my way out was. I had a feeling he at least had AK or AQ +.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

SB ($2.51)
BB ($1.60)
UTG ($2.15)
UTG+1 ($4.39)
MP1 ($1.30)
MP2 ($2.14)
Hero (CO) ($1.75)
Button ($2.37)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8

, K

4 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, Button raises to $0.18, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, Button calls $0.22

Flop: ($0.83) 6

, K

, 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.32, Button calls $0.32

Turn: ($1.47) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.03 (All-In), Button calls $1.03

River: ($3.53) 6

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.53 | Rake: $0.12

Results below:

Spoiler

Button had A

, A

(two pair, Aces and sixes).
Hero had 8

, K

(two pair, Kings and eights).
Outcome: Button won $3.41

 

[John A]

OK, thanks! Anyways, Holdem' manager's popup displays the already calculated 4bet range by positions, since it's value is normally between 2 and 5 right? Also, how big of a sample do you need generally before you start making any 5-bet bluffs if you have no specific reads?

Yeah, usually between 2 - 8%.

As far as 5-bet bluffs, well either a good read that someone is playing back a little too often, or a lot of hands. Maybe 20k+.

 

[John A]

I've tried to 4-bet 4 times in the last couple days and it doesn't seem to be working too well for me. The first time villain folded, the next 2 times I was shoved on and had to fold out. The last time which just happened I got beaten on the river. Not having a lot of fun with 4betting currently.

It's going to invite some variance, but just make sure you're picking your spots AND opponents well.

The hand above, is generally a good spot, but knowing a little more about villain would be good.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

It's going to invite some variance, but just make sure you're picking your spots AND opponents well.

The hand above, is generally a good spot, but knowing a little more about villain would be good.

Lol yes, variance. Currently it's being a bionic b***h!

 

[Fisi]

Yeah, usually between 2 - 8%.

As far as 5-bet bluffs, well either a good read that someone is playing back a little too often, or a lot of hands. Maybe 20k+.

Great, thanks!

 

[Figaroo2]

Sneaky feet I like your K8 spot and you were unlucky to lose to the 6 on the river so don't worry about that hand too much but it shows why hands like K8 suited are good to 4 bet as they give you a chance if you are called. and you can easily fold to a shove.
I have been experimenting with 4 betting a lot since the turn of the year and have found that generally at 2nl once players have three 3 bet they are committed to the hand so 4 bet bluffing is fruitless unless you can find a regular that is 3 betting too much. This is the key to 4 bet bluffs its very player dependant, move up to 5, 10 and 25nl and there is much more 3 betting and many more spots where 4 bet bluffing will work. At 25nl my 4 bet success rate is 100% where my 50% of my 4 bets are bluffs at 10 nl 4 bet success is 65% but it falls to 37% at 2nl.
4 betting without shoving also appears at the lower limits to command the respect of the table and makes players think before 3 betting you or messing with you generally

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Sneaky feet I like your K8 spot and you were unlucky to lose to the 6 on the river so don't worry about that hand too much but it shows why hands like K8 suited are good to 4 bet as they give you a chance if you are called. and you can easily fold to a shove.
I have been experimenting with 4 betting a lot since the turn of the year and have found that generally at 2nl once players have three 3 bet they are committed to the hand so 4 bet bluffing is fruitless unless you can find a regular that is 3 betting too much. This is the key to 4 bet bluffs its very player dependant, move up to 5, 10 and 25nl and there is much more 3 betting and many more spots where 4 bet bluffing will work. At 25nl my 4 bet success rate is 100% where my 50% of my 4 bets are bluffs at 10 nl 4 bet success is 65% but it falls to 37% at 2nl.
4 betting without shoving also appears at the lower limits to command the respect of the table and makes players think before 3 betting you or messing with you generally

Thanks Figaroo2 I appreciate that. Your comments are timely because I was starting to think that 4 betting may not be the best line to take on .02. Like you say the majority of players bet what they see so raising a 3 bet is going to warrant a higher percentage of shoves because most players a 3 betting pocket pairs or AK. I will definitely be choosing my spots better. After all that is part of the practice

 

[John A]

Sneaky feet I like your K8 spot and you were unlucky to lose to the 6 on the river so don't worry about that hand too much but it shows why hands like K8 suited are good to 4 bet as they give you a chance if you are called. and you can easily fold to a shove.
I have been experimenting with 4 betting a lot since the turn of the year and have found that generally at 2nl once players have three 3 bet they are committed to the hand so 4 bet bluffing is fruitless unless you can find a regular that is 3 betting too much. This is the key to 4 bet bluffs its very player dependant, move up to 5, 10 and 25nl and there is much more 3 betting and many more spots where 4 bet bluffing will work. At 25nl my 4 bet success rate is 100% where my 50% of my 4 bets are bluffs at 10 nl 4 bet success is 65% but it falls to 37% at 2nl.
4 betting without shoving also appears at the lower limits to command the respect of the table and makes players think before 3 betting you or messing with you generally

Yeah, don't 4-bet bluff in games where guys are not 3-betting enough. This is ONLY against opponents who are 3-betting say at least 8% from that position. If they are 3-betting that much, then they do have plenty of bluffs in their range that will fold out. Obviously the higher this number is, the better for you.

 

[Figaroo2]

Better week 4 betting is working well cash and tourneys


Trying not to call 3 bets especially oop. Still working on reducing my limping in.
Any comments on the 4 betting range.

 

[John A]

Good goals Fig... and try and reduce cold calling OOP with marginal hands. Be more definitive with your decisions OOP.

 

[John A]

Alright so pages 88-89. Everyone understand 4-bet bluff sizing? Important to understand and risk the least amount possible to accomplish your goal.

I want to finish this chapter off and go to some of the topics I mentioned earlier.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

GTG. If you're sitting with 100bb and villain 3 bets 18bb a 4bet should be between 25-27bb. If you're sitting at around 150bb and villain 3bets 18bb you should 4bet between 48-67bb. When stack sizes are bigger than 150bb 4bet wider (but in position) for value vs. bluffs.

Good?

 

[John A]

That's a huge 3-bet whether it's 100bbs or 150bbs. You couldn't 4-bet to 25 unless you opened to like 9bbs. And if 150bbs, then you'd still 4-bet around 22-27% of your stack. Really after 140bbs, 4-bet bluffing can become quite unproftable, unless you're doing it with some value hands that can flop big when you're called. Generally speaking, I wouldn't 4-bet bluff very often after you hit the 140bb effective stack threshold unless you have a really good reason.