Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[John A]

Not many reads it was only my 3rd hand on the table having picked up a decent pot in the blinds and stacked the table fish already.
Ok I sat here thinking Is he trying to push me off a chop here?.
If he had 66 he'd bet turn for value right?
Could he have trip 5's on the turn? and doesn't want to bet as the flush arrives and he wants the chance to boat up before committing some chips. With the preflop call train I think that brings in more 5x suited connectors. But meh if he has quads he needs to bet river as he has no idea if im going to bet.
What do we think?

Pre-flop is a little meh. You said they were fish, so I guess it's ok. I'd prefer to 3-bet or fold w/ offsuit QT.

As far as river, yeah, think you should call there. I mean you're only beat by 5x and 66. Not many combos there, lots of splits and only need one bluff. Most likely you're splitting, which it was a stupid raise by him if that's the case (fish play).

 

[John A]

What did you end up doing Fig?

 

[Figaroo2]

What did you end up doing Fig?

Preflop I'm only playing here because its multiway I'm unlikely to get squeezed and I have the btn.
I ended up folding. It maybe a mistake but not in my view a big one.
My experience of 10nl is this is never a bluff, he has Qx or 5x. Bluffs would generally be smaller, there's no point bluff overshoving when 3/4 to full pot gets the job done just as well.
Players at this level also aren't thinking about pushing people off chops.
The question is which hand is it?
I think the flop bet into 4 players is telling. Its strong, he either has strong Qx 66 55 or 56 to bet the flop (or a very unlikely 2 pair like Q5s Q6s)
When the board flushes on the turn all Qx are likely checking, but the boats are still betting for value from made flushes, 66 55 and 56 should be betting the turn. The turn check means it can't really be 5x unless it was 55 but we know from the river card he can't have that hand. It is my view now that as played it was likely to be Qx and he's just shoving hoping a fish will pay off with a flush.

Played a short but fun live 1/2 session at my local casino over the weekend heres the debrief
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...garoo2-poker-journey-257038/post-5148369.html

 

[Garcia9000]

I think it’s an easy call,
Don’t think too much of the 5 (he could have called with A5, but still you can’t be afraid of QUADS), most likely he has another Q.

 

[John A]

Preflop I'm only playing here because its multiway I'm unlikely to get squeezed and I have the btn.
I ended up folding. It maybe a mistake but not in my view a big one.
My experience of 10nl is this is never a bluff, he has Qx or 5x. Bluffs would generally be smaller, there's no point bluff overshoving when 3/4 to full pot gets the job done just as well.
Players at this level also aren't thinking about pushing people off chops.
The question is which hand is it?
I think the flop bet into 4 players is telling. Its strong, he either has strong Qx 66 55 or 56 to bet the flop (or a very unlikely 2 pair like Q5s Q6s)
When the board flushes on the turn all Qx are likely checking, but the boats are still betting for value from made flushes, 66 55 and 56 should be betting the turn. The turn check means it can't really be 5x unless it was 55 but we know from the river card he can't have that hand. It is my view now that as played it was likely to be Qx and he's just shoving hoping a fish will pay off with a flush.

Played a short but fun live 1/2 session at my local casino over the weekend heres the debrief
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...garoo2-poker-journey-257038/post-5148369.html

They aren't thinking of pushing people off chops at this level? If they are TAG or around there, I think that's a growing consideration. I also wouldn't rule out some random bluffs (but likely not many) It looks a lot like 66 or Qx. 5x doesn't make much sense unless it' 56... but still even 66 and 56, it seems pretty bad to potentially lose value by not betting the turn. If I were weighting his range it would be heavily Qx. He has no reason to think either of you are betting the river.

 

[Figaroo2]

Looks like we agree then! I should have called.

 

[John A]

Looks like we agree then! I should have called.

Miracles can happen! Jk, we often agree.

 

[John A]

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $0.50(BB)
SB ($53.13) [VPIP: 42.9% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 24.5% | 3-Bet: 0% | hands: 56]
BB ($68.66) [VPIP: 30.4% | PFR: 8.7% | AGG: 13.6% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 23]
UTG ($14.5) [VPIP: 56.3% | PFR: 2.1% | AGG: 19.3% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 48]
HJ ($10.75) [VPIP: 23.7% | PFR: 5.3% | AGG: 8% | 3-Bet: 6.7% | Hands: 38]
HERO ($45.4) [VPIP: 32.5% | PFR: 25.5% | AGG: 36.7% | 3-Bet: 10.9% | Hands: 3111]
BTN ($60.24) [VPIP: 25.5% | PFR: 12.8% | AGG: 23.5% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 47]

Dealt to Hero: 5:diamond: K:diamond:

UTG Calls $0.50, HJ Folds, HERO Raises To $2.50, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Calls $2, UTG Calls $2

Hero SPR on Flop: [1.55 effective]
Flop ($7.75): K:club: 5:club: A:diamond:
BB Checks, UTG Checks, HERO Bets $4.53 (Rem. Stack: 38.37), BB Raises To $9.06 (Rem. Stack: 57.10), UTG Folds, HERO Calls $4.53 (Rem. Stack: 33.84)

Turn ($25.87): K:club: 5:club: A:diamond: 9:club:
BB Checks, HERO Bets $10.79 (Rem. Stack: 23.05), BB Raises To $57.10 (allin), HERO Folds

Spoiler

BB wins: $45.08

 

[Alucard]

Turn ($25.87): K♣ 5♣ A♦ 9♣
BB Checks, HERO Bets $10.79 (Rem. Stack: 23.05), BB Raises To $57.10 (allin), HERO Folds

why are we leading turn here? what are we trying to fold?

 

[Figaroo2]

I agree with betting turn to get value from naked Ac that is much more likely than a made flush. Something like Ac Qx is calling a significant turn bet.
With his low aggression factor I agree the turn is a fold, its clearly a flush at that point but I'm surprised he raised on the flop unless he has specifically AcQc or AcJc.
I might have looked to get this in on the flop but no harm in waiting to see turn before committing a lot of chips.

 

[Alucard]

oops sorry I didn't notice we were in position. I thought it was vs an early position. So I agree with betting

 

[John A]

I agree with betting turn to get value from naked Ac that is much more likely than a made flush. Something like Ac Qx is calling a significant turn bet.
With his low aggression factor I agree the turn is a fold, its clearly a flush at that point but I'm surprised he raised on the flop unless he has specifically AcQc or AcJc.
I might have looked to get this in on the flop but no harm in waiting to see turn before committing a lot of chips.

Yeah, the strange this is the small flop raise and then the turn CRAI. It's an easy fold, but really odd line to try and get any value by opponent.

 

[Figaroo2]

Yes but he is already trending towards loose passive and fishy from stats. These types just love handing the initiative to aggressive players to let them do the betting. A high clubs hand with top pair and nut flush draw has so much equity on the flop even a guy as passive as this can find a small flop raise. I"m not surprised at all by its sizing.
On the turn he probably reckons betting is too strong so he checks to try and induce and then cant resist overshoving with the nuts as he gets to do it so infrequently. This is definitely the nuts.

 

[John A]

Yes but he is already trending towards loose passive and fishy from stats. These types just love handing the initiative to aggressive players to let them do the betting. A high clubs hand with top pair and nut flush draw has so much equity on the flop even a guy as passive as this can find a small flop raise. I"m not surprised at all by its sizing.
On the turn he probably reckons betting is too strong so he checks to try and induce and then cant resist overshoving with the nuts as he gets to do it so infrequently. This is definitely the nuts.

If it doesn't make any sense by a micro player, and a smaller bluff could work, then usually it's the nuts. usually.

 

[Figaroo2]

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $11.43 (114.3 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
MP1: $11.71 (117.1 bb)VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 5, AF: 2.8, Hands: 14385
MP2: $10.35 (103.5 bb)
MP3: $13.07 (130.7 bb)
CO: $10.15 (101.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $12.56 (125.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 6♥ 3♥
MP1 raises to $0.20, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.20, 2 folds
This player is a regular float target, he's usually one or two and done and won't fire three without a monster

Flop: ($0.55) 7♥ Q♥ J♦ (2 players)
MP1 bets $0.13, Hero raises to $0.50, MP1 calls $0.37
Very weak draw so choose to raise this time

Turn: ($1.55) 6♣ (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.80, MP1 calls $0.80

River: ($3.15) 6♦ (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets
What sizing do you like here?
And what sizing would you use for bluffing it you choose to?

 

[John A]

Still don't like the pre-call even w/ your read. People squeeze too much in spots like that now a days.

As played, I'm checking that turn almost always after the flop call. You don't want to burn the improved equity at this point. As played probably going roughly 2/3rds on river to get value from Qx and high pairs. With your read of your opponent you know he has a fairly strong hand.

On

 

[Alucard]

iPoker - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BB: 94.56 BB (VPIP: 42.53, PFR: 28.74, 3Bet Preflop: 18.92, Hands: 88)
UTG: 173.42 BB (VPIP: 21.62, PFR: 17.72, 3Bet Preflop: 9.50, Hands: 1,507)
Hero (MP): 244.36 BB
CO: 224.28 BB (VPIP: 23.73, PFR: 13.56, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 119)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 27.11, PFR: 22.64, 3Bet Preflop: 14.89, Hands: 415)
SB: 104.2 BB (VPIP: 26.57, PFR: 20.58, 3Bet Preflop: 7.55, Hands: 12,727)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Th Td
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop : (7 BB, 2 players) 6c 6d 7d
SB checks, Hero bets 2.8 BB, SB calls 2.8 BB

Turn : (12.6 BB, 2 players) 2c
SB checks, Hero bets 17 BB, SB raises to 34 BB, fold

SB wins 44.28 BB

Vs a reg. I'm not sure about this fold
He prob xr 6x, so only 77 makes sense here

 

[John A]

Why the sizing on the turn? Yeah, there should be very few 6 or 7's in his range from the SB. It's obviously really exploitable, but a turn min raise is typically super strong.

 

[Alucard]

Why the sizing on the turn? Yeah, there should be very few 6 or 7's in his range from the SB. It's obviously really exploitable, but a turn min raise is typically super strong.

Was trying to put him in an awkward spot with his draws, I do this from time to time with strong pairs on drawy boards specially vs fish cause they don't care about odds.
He's a reg & has decent flop raise/check raise stats so on turn I ranged him on draws.
He might just be thinking I'm bluffing to rebluff with his draws. I'd have some semi bluffs here ofc. maybe some lower pairs as 2s,3s as well

 

[John A]

Was trying to put him in an awkward spot with his draws, I do this from time to time with strong pairs on drawy boards specially vs fish cause they don't care about odds.
He's a reg & has decent flop raise/check raise stats so on turn I ranged him on draws.
He might just be thinking I'm bluffing to rebluff with his draws. I'd have some semi bluffs here ofc. maybe some lower pairs as 2s,3s as well

Ok, but he's not going to have a ton of draws here, and he's not a fish. If he's a decent reg, then he shouldn't be cold calling with hands that hit that flop very hard.

 

[Figaroo2]

Pacific, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $30.15 (100.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $34 (113.3 bb)
UTG+1: $34.29 (114.3 bb)
UTG+2: $57.89 (193 bb)VPIP: 16, PFR: 13, 3B: 6, AF: 2.4, Hands: 6548
MP1: $30 (100 bb)
MP2: $19.52 (65.1 bb)
MP3: $30 (100 bb)
CO: $20.23 (67.4 bb)
BTN: $24.71 (82.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7♠ 6♠
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.80, 3 folds, CO calls $0.80, BTN calls $0.80, SB folds, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($3.35) 5♥ 7♦ 7♥ (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $2.23, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6.69, UTG+2 calls $4.46

Turn: ($16.73) 2♥ (2 players) meh don't like this card.
Hero bets? How much?

 

[Ian the Fish]

Pacific, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $30.15 (100.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $34 (113.3 bb)
UTG+1: $34.29 (114.3 bb)
UTG+2: $57.89 (193 bb)VPIP: 16, PFR: 13, 3B: 6, AF: 2.4, Hands: 6548
MP1: $30 (100 bb)
MP2: $19.52 (65.1 bb)
MP3: $30 (100 bb)
CO: $20.23 (67.4 bb)
BTN: $24.71 (82.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7♠ 6♠
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.80, 3 folds, CO calls $0.80, BTN calls $0.80, SB folds, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($3.35) 5♥ 7♦ 7♥ (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $2.23, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6.69, UTG+2 calls $4.46

Turn: ($16.73) 2♥ (2 players) meh don't like this card.
Hero bets? How much?

Interesting decision to raise the flop (I think it's interesting, anyhow), because I would have called and let him dig his own grave. The only hand that beats you there really is a 55.

The way you played it, I would bet a little less than a half pot on the turn. With the idea that if he raises, you can come up with a fold + if called, you give him a chance to miss again.

 

[John A]

Pacific, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $30.15 (100.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $34 (113.3 bb)
UTG+1: $34.29 (114.3 bb)
UTG+2: $57.89 (193 bb)VPIP: 16, PFR: 13, 3B: 6, AF: 2.4, Hands: 6548
MP1: $30 (100 bb)
MP2: $19.52 (65.1 bb)
MP3: $30 (100 bb)
CO: $20.23 (67.4 bb)
BTN: $24.71 (82.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7♠ 6♠
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.80, 3 folds, CO calls $0.80, BTN calls $0.80, SB folds, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($3.35) 5♥ 7♦ 7♥ (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $2.23, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6.69, UTG+2 calls $4.46

Turn: ($16.73) 2♥ (2 players) meh don't like this card.
Hero bets? How much?

Think with the raise position and the fact they bet into multiple players, I like the CR on the flop. I'd go just about half pot on the turn. It's more about potentially killing your action, so you can go slightly under half pot.

 

[Figaroo2]

Think with the raise position and the fact they bet into multiple players, I like the CR on the flop. I'd go just about half pot on the turn. It's more about potentially killing your action, so you can go slightly under half pot.

I bet $8 and he folded. As I bet I thought 'what am I going to do if I get raised?'

 

[John A]

I bet $8 and he folded. As I bet I thought 'what am I going to do if I get raised?'

Yeah, I like about $7. With someone this tight, you can fold. Your range is heavily draw based, so if you bet and get raised on the turn, assuming he's not some next level Ivey, you can fold even though you're giving yourself great odds. He shouldn't be raising his big pairs, even with hearts, and there's really no worse 7x.