Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[rhombus]

I'm going to do some more videos next week. But right now, let's focus on a specific topic yeah?

Everyone that's in this thread should end up winning long term, and increase their current level of play. That's our goal. So we got off here a bit, but time to grind it back up!

Have we got a list of topics to go through. Id like to do some post flop stuff

In and out of position how do you play differently as the aggressor?? vs as the preflop caller

 

[Figaroo2]

I'm going to do some more videos next week. But right now, let's focus on a specific topic yeah?

Everyone that's in this thread should end up winning long term, and increase their current level of play. That's our goal. So we got off here a bit, but time to grind it back up!

I'm quite keen to talk about bet sizing tells postflop, its not something I remember being covered much in polished poker.
There have been times when John has sweated me and shouted "bet sizing tell, raise him" and its taken me a while to see when players are trying to buy the pot when value hands wouldn't bet that sizing, I'm still trying to get to grips with this topic.

 

[rhombus]

I'm quite keen to talk about bet sizing tells postflop, its not something I remember being covered much in polished poker.
There have been times when John has sweated me and shouted "bet sizing tell, raise him" and its taken me a while to see when players are trying to buy the pot when value hands wouldn't bet that sizing, I'm still trying to get to grips with this topic.

What are the standard bet sizes these days lol and is it dependant on SPR
i.e. single raised pots about 2/3 - 3Bet pots 40%????????

GTO bet sizing ???????????

 

[John A]

Have we got a list of topics to go through. Id like to do some post flop stuff

In and out of position how do you play differently as the aggressor?? vs as the preflop caller

Sure... what do you think about bet sizing tells since Fig suggested it. It will cover a few different areas. He's right, I've written a little about this, but not really much of anything in polished poker. It's more of a micro takes thing and maybe sometimes small stakes as well, as it's not going to happen quite as much beyond those stakes. I can definitely share some little tips in this area though.

 

[rhombus]

Sure... what do you think about bet sizing tells since Fig suggested it. It will cover a few different areas. He's right, I've written a little about this, but not really much of anything in polished poker. It's more of a micro takes thing and maybe sometimes small stakes as well, as it's not going to happen quite as much beyond those stakes. I can definitely share some little tips in this area though.

sounds good

 

[Figaroo2]

Full pot on the flop?

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $10.05 (100.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $32.26 (322.6 bb)
UTG: $13.64 (136.4 bb)
MP: $10.37 (103.7 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $11.52 (115.2 bb)VPIP: 67, PFR: 50, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 6

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

J

3 folds, BTN raises to $0.30, SB folds, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) T

7

4

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60
Such a weak sizing....I'm going to overbet the turn on most cards.

Turn: ($1.85) Q

(2 players)
Nice extra equity Hero bets $2.20, BTN folds

Results: $1.85 pot ($0.08 rake)
Final Board: T

7

4

Q

Hero mucked K

J

and won $1.77 ($0.87 net)
BTN mucked and lost (-$0.90 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

wtf is this?

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $11.02 (110.2 bb)
BB: $9.79 (97.9 bb)
UTG+1: $17.78 (177.8 bb)VPIP: 50, PFR: 25, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 8
UTG+2: $7.85 (78.5 bb)
MP1: $9.76 (97.6 bb)
MP2: $24.64 (246.4 bb)
MP3: $30.92 (309.2 bb)
CO: $10.57 (105.7 bb)
Hero (BTN): $22.54 (225.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

K

UTG+1 raises to $1, 5 folds, Hero calls $1, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.15) Q

2

5

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2.05,
Hero?

If I was 100bb deep I would have raised here, but is calling better a bit deeper?

About 5 mins after this the same villian opened for 16bb from MP and barrelled full pot flop and turn.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $11.02 (110.2 bb)
BB: $9.79 (97.9 bb)
UTG+1: $17.78 (177.8 bb)VPIP: 50, PFR: 25, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 8
UTG+2: $7.85 (78.5 bb)
MP1: $9.76 (97.6 bb)
MP2: $24.64 (246.4 bb)
MP3: $30.92 (309.2 bb)
CO: $10.57 (105.7 bb)
Hero (BTN): $22.54 (225.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

K

UTG+1 raises to $1, 5 folds, Hero calls $1, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.15) Q

2

5

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2.05,
Hero?

If I was 100bb deep I would have raised here, but is calling better a bit deeper?

About 5 mins after this the same villian opened for 16bb from MP and barrelled full pot flop and turn.

I think whenever we can safefy assume A and K are active, a raise is in order and hopefully he re-raises and we shove. Sure its high variance but we should be favourite against this guys range.

but if we raise on flop... we take control hopefully and villain checks to us most times... If villain then proceeds with a big bet on the turn he def will have a big hand and trying to protect... so then we see both cards and if we don't improve we wont need to put another cent in.


Depending on how weak Villains bet is on the turn means if we shove or not...

If I improve to A-5 straight draws on turn I will shove.
But if I don't improve and he bets quite big on us we will need to fold.
Obv heart hits we are betting

 

[John A]

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $10.05 (100.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $32.26 (322.6 bb)
UTG: $13.64 (136.4 bb)
MP: $10.37 (103.7 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $11.52 (115.2 bb)VPIP: 67, PFR: 50, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 6

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

J

3 folds, BTN raises to $0.30, SB folds, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) T

7

4

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60
Such a weak sizing....I'm going to overbet the turn on most cards.

Turn: ($1.85) Q

(2 players)
Nice extra equity Hero bets $2.20, BTN folds

Results: $1.85 pot ($0.08 rake)
Final Board: T

7

4

Q

Hero mucked K

J

and won $1.77 ($0.87 net)
BTN mucked and lost (-$0.90 net)

That's good you have a plan... man you guys are really playing well.

Once you pick up the extra equity though, I think you can adjust your plan and just bet 1.20 ish... you'll get the same range to fold. Maybe an occasional stubborn 7x stays around, but you need to adapt your plan to the new situation. Good hand though!

 

[John A]

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $11.02 (110.2 bb)
BB: $9.79 (97.9 bb)
UTG+1: $17.78 (177.8 bb)VPIP: 50, PFR: 25, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 8
UTG+2: $7.85 (78.5 bb)
MP1: $9.76 (97.6 bb)
MP2: $24.64 (246.4 bb)
MP3: $30.92 (309.2 bb)
CO: $10.57 (105.7 bb)
Hero (BTN): $22.54 (225.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

K

UTG+1 raises to $1, 5 folds, Hero calls $1, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.15) Q

2

5

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2.05,
Hero?

If I was 100bb deep I would have raised here, but is calling better a bit deeper?

About 5 mins after this the same villian opened for 16bb from MP and barrelled full pot flop and turn.

Yeah, he looks like he's just mucking around. Yeah if you were 100bbs you're just raising and getting it in. I think considering what you're saying though I still like a little above a min raise and then shove the turn. If he's going to just pot pot and force you into a hand, it's better to just force him into one and increase some FE on your side. If you didn't think he was going to be a "just pot it bully", then sometimes calling on the flop is fine. But again, considering your read I like a slight raise and jamming most turns. I'd ideally like you to be 150 bbs or less, but I think against someone like this it's still highly profitable to raise and get it in (at these stakes).

 

[rhombus]

No reads maximise/minimise losses.

Whats the magical formula withthese hands lol??
What depth do you fold vs call??

Prima, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $6.78 (339 bb)
BB: $2.07 (103.5 bb)
UTG: $1.94 (97 bb)
MP: $6.41 (320.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $2.36 (118 bb)
BTN: $2.14 (107 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

A

UTG folds, MP calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.10, BTN folds, SB calls $0.09, BB calls $0.08, MP folds

Flop: ($0.32) 2

K

4

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, SB calls $0.20, BB folds

Turn: ($0.72) 8

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.46, SB raises to $2.26, Hero ??

 

[Figaroo2]

No reads maximise/minimise losses.
Whats the magical formula withthese hands lol??
What depth do you fold vs call??
Prima, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
SB: $6.78 (339 bb)
BB: $2.07 (103.5 bb)
UTG: $1.94 (97 bb)
MP: $6.41 (320.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $2.36 (118 bb)
BTN: $2.14 (107 bb)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K

A

UTG folds, MP calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.10, BTN folds, SB calls $0.09, BB calls $0.08, MP folds
Flop: ($0.32) 2

K

4

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, SB calls $0.20, BB folds
Turn: ($0.72) 8

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.46, SB raises to $2.26, Hero ??

The only hand he's repping is a set. 2 pair combos look pretty scarse on that board and its hard to hit sets.
He could be much wider, if he has Ksxs he could pull this move, I wouldn't be surprised by 3s5s either.

The fact is he can play like this in ZOOM and you never know what he has because there are no reads. He's representing the nuts or near to it and 95% of the time he's going to get a fold.
Ask yourself would he really push say a set of 4's all in at this point when the play is going to fold out virtually all your hands?....not a great way to get value, which is why I'm definitely calling this here.

If he has a set that is the penalty you pay for playing with no reads.
How deep? I probably call up to 140-150bb

 

[Aces2w1n]

Magic formula is check the turn. On a dryboard we arent at risk of being outdrawn.

Hands like 2pair or sets will spring the checkraise
Weak pp will fold and possible but rare a weaker ace can raise u here and put you in a bind.

Turn check check and then if he checks river bet... if he bets river then take a read and call if you think he can value with worse


Your first step in the hand is work out what type of player your up against... if your playing a 40vpip guy we can go 3 streets of value most times and he will pay you with any ace.

Against a reg its a diff story... they play a touch smarter... 2 streets usually

..................

I read a book that suggests against a reg in higher stakes they will never have it here and its a bluff

Thing is what smart player will raise on a dryboard and get risked being folded on heh

 

[Figaroo2]

Lead into on the turn by aggro fish

Got a little lost facing this aggression, even with TPTK and despite feeling I was ahead I didn't really know what to do here on the river, how would you play this hand?
Several options, 4 bet pre? (+blocker), fold turn? fold river? check call down?

Digging a little deeper into the stats shows he hasn't check raised or donked the flop but has donk lead the turn 25% of the time and river aggression is 71%
So a fair amount of the time he 3bets, check calls flop and bombs turn and river.
The sizing on the turn seems to lean towards wanting to get me to fold, so I didn't. River sizing, is he betting for value or trying to bluff as cheaply as he thinks will get it done?
Equity wise AT on that flop is well ahead of a 14% 3bet range.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $10.48 (104.8 bb)
BB: $18.81 (188.1 bb)VPIP: 47, PFR: 21, 3B: 14, AF: 3.3, Hands: 81
UTG+1: $10 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $11.53 (115.3 bb)
MP1: $19.57 (195.7 bb)
MP2: $6.85 (68.5 bb)
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $15.02 (150.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

T

6 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB folds, BB raises to $0.95, Hero calls $0.65

Flop: ($1.95) T

5

2

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.46, BB calls $1.46

Turn: ($4.87) 9

(2 players)
BB bets $3.65, Hero calls $3.65

River: ($12.17) 7

(2 players)
BB bets $6.08,
Hero?

 

[John A]

No reads maximise/minimise losses.

Whats the magical formula withthese hands lol??
What depth do you fold vs call??

Prima, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $6.78 (339 bb)
BB: $2.07 (103.5 bb)
UTG: $1.94 (97 bb)
MP: $6.41 (320.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $2.36 (118 bb)
BTN: $2.14 (107 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

A

UTG folds, MP calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.10, BTN folds, SB calls $0.09, BB calls $0.08, MP folds

Flop: ($0.32) 2

K

4

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, SB calls $0.20, BB folds

Turn: ($0.72) 8

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.46, SB raises to $2.26, Hero ??

You played it fine. I think at these stakes you should just fold here on this kind of board to a turn CR. Even though it's horrible poker for him to CR here, don't over think these spots at .01/.02. 90% of the time he's going to have a set, 5% the same hand or slightly worse KQ, and 5% a bluff. I'm throwing out guesstimates here, but my general advice is they aren't thinking enough about your range and what you'll continue with. They are just thinking, I have a set, now it's time to get more money in.

 

[John A]

Got a little lost facing this aggression, even with TPTK and despite feeling I was ahead I didn't really know what to do here on the river, how would you play this hand?
Several options, 4 bet pre? (+blocker), fold turn? fold river? check call down?

Digging a little deeper into the stats shows he hasn't check raised or donked the flop but has donk lead the turn 25% of the time and river aggression is 71%
So a fair amount of the time he 3bets, check calls flop and bombs turn and river.
The sizing on the turn seems to lean towards wanting to get me to fold, so I didn't. River sizing, is he betting for value or trying to bluff as cheaply as he thinks will get it done?
Equity wise AT on that flop is well ahead of a 14% 3bet range.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $10.48 (104.8 bb)
BB: $18.81 (188.1 bb)VPIP: 47, PFR: 21, 3B: 14, AF: 3.3, Hands: 81
UTG+1: $10 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $11.53 (115.3 bb)
MP1: $19.57 (195.7 bb)
MP2: $6.85 (68.5 bb)
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $15.02 (150.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

T

6 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB folds, BB raises to $0.95, Hero calls $0.65

Flop: ($1.95) T

5

2

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.46, BB calls $1.46

Turn: ($4.87) 9

(2 players)
BB bets $3.65, Hero calls $3.65

River: ($12.17) 7

(2 players)
BB bets $6.08,
Hero?

Generally, if we're 100bbs I'm raising that turn and GIAI. With stacks I think calling is fine, and call river. If he c/c's the flop with JJ+, good for him. I think T9 is betting that flop a large % of the time, and if he turned a set, good for him again. Not folding here in this spot against this guy. You will be beat sometimes, but not nearly more than half the time.

 

[rhombus]

Magic formula is check the turn. On a dryboard we arent at risk of being outdrawn.

Hands like 2pair or sets will spring the checkraise
Weak pp will fold and possible but rare a weaker ace can raise u here and put you in a bind.

Turn check check and then if he checks river bet... if he bets river then take a read and call if you think he can value with worse


Your first step in the hand is work out what type of player your up against... if your playing a 40vpip guy we can go 3 streets of value most times and he will pay you with any ace.

Against a reg its a diff story... they play a touch smarter... 2 streets usually

..................

I read a book that suggests against a reg in higher stakes they will never have it here and its a bluff

Thing is what smart player will raise on a dryboard and get risked being folded on heh

check turn on dry board, what do you do on wet i.e. if turn was 5 diamond

If you are always checking on dry boards, isn't that exploitable. What are you going to do to balance. Only barrel with sets and backdoor outs??

They actualy had 44 and i shoved

PS I do agree about checking turn as not many hands to get value from many hands and betting river if checked too

Blaze poker - HUD doesnt work on Prima but when I checked the hand later their stats were 17/11 3B 3.4 AG 0.5 76 Hands

 

[Aces2w1n]

check turn on dry board, what do you do on wet i.e. if turn was 5 diamond

If you are always checking on dry boards, isn't that exploitable. What are you going to do to balance. Only barrel with sets and backdoor outs??

They actualy had 44 and i shoved

PS I do agree about checking turn as not many hands to get value from many hands and betting river if checked too

Blaze poker - HUD doesnt work on Prima but when I checked the hand later their stats were 17/11 3B 3.4 AG 0.5 76 Hands

We are exploiting them by not giving them the action they want. We still get the value.

We will have monsters in same spot and they will fall for our traps.

Depending what we do with textured boards depends on our Ace if its the same suit.... 3 diamonds anr we hold a single Ace diamond with top pair... we can ignore the texture and the texture is working for us.

But when its working against us we need to make the flush draws pay twice

 

[John A]

So this was just for fun the other day with my kids. Little lego star wars stop motion video:

 

[Aces2w1n]

Yep ill show the kids.. they like toilet humour lol

 

[John A]

check turn on dry board, what do you do on wet i.e. if turn was 5 diamond

If you are always checking on dry boards, isn't that exploitable. What are you going to do to balance. Only barrel with sets and backdoor outs??

They actualy had 44 and i shoved

PS I do agree about checking turn as not many hands to get value from many hands and betting river if checked too

Blaze poker - HUD doesnt work on Prima but when I checked the hand later their stats were 17/11 3B 3.4 AG 0.5 76 Hands

No, you should bet the turn at this limit. Don't over think this or get results oriented. With tptk+ just bet/bet/bet until you are raised. If you're raised, fold unless you have better than tptk. Don't over complicate it. These guys are going to tell you exactly what they have.

 

[rhombus]

No, you should bet the turn at this limit. Don't over think this or get results oriented. With tptk+ just bet/bet/bet until you are raised. If you're raised, fold unless you have better than tptk. Don't over complicate it. These guys are going to tell you exactly what they have.

If you bet/bet/bet and fold to raise what sizings should we use to not over commit if they do raise?

Example 5c/10c Effective $10.00

Pre flop - Raise 30c SB calls 30c BB folds Pot 70c Effective $9.70
Flop - Bet 50c SB call 50c Pot $1.70 Effective $9.20
Turn - Bet $1.20 SB call $1.20 Pot $4.10 Effective $8.00
River - Bet $2.50 SB calls $2.50 Pot $9.10 Effective $5.50
Hero has TpTk Villain has bottom pair

So any street above you suggest folding unless you have a draw to go with tptk????

 

[John A]

If you bet/bet/bet and fold to raise what sizings should we use to not over commit if they do raise?

Example 5c/10c Effective $10.00

Pre flop - Raise 30c SB calls 30c BB folds Pot 70c Effective $9.70
Flop - Bet 50c SB call 50c Pot $1.70 Effective $9.20
Turn - Bet $1.20 SB call $1.20 Pot $4.10 Effective $8.00
River - Bet $2.50 SB calls $2.50 Pot $9.10 Effective $5.50
Hero has TpTk Villain has bottom pair

So any street above you suggest folding unless you have a draw to go with tptk????

Well, obviously on the river in some cases you won't be able to fold unless you're deeper. My point is, keep betting with TP until they tell you they have a better hand. Players at this level are going to tell you what their hands are, and believe them. Don't over think it too much unless you have very specific reads.

On the turn you can size appropriately to fold to a raise. In your example hand that's an easy fold to the turn CR. You did everything correct, except for the fold.

The only thing you need to worry/think about is when players at this level over value their hands. And this is why you pay attention and try to find any clues that this is the case. But otherwise, keep it simple and believe what they are telling you.

 

[John A]

Fyi, I am going to do some content on bet sizing. I'm trying to finish a couple of things up and then will have some content about this since it's been asked.

 

[Figaroo2]

River sizing?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $15.88 (63.5 bb)
BB: $38.12 (152.5 bb)
UTG+2: $45.66 (182.6 bb)
MP1: $16.94 (67.8 bb)
Hero (MP2): $25 (100 bb)
MP3: $47.92 (191.7 bb)
CO: $25.80 (103.2 bb)VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 3, AF: 0.6, Hands: 203
BTN: $48.05 (192.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 4

4

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, MP3 folds, CO calls $0.75, 3 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 4

8

A

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.18, CO calls $1.18

Turn: ($4.21) J

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.68, CO calls $2.68

River: ($9.57) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets ?
Clearly hes likely to call with his Ace hands and raise with his flushes so it looks like a clear bet fold spot, but how much do we bet to avoid giving away too much information about our hand?

Spoiler

Hero bets $4

Spoiler

, CO calls $4
Results: $17.57 pot ($0.79 rake)
Final Board: 4

8

A

J

Q

Hero showed 4

4

and won $16.78 ($8.17 net)
CO mucked Q

A

and lost (-$8.61 net)....Now I wish I'd bet 6.50....