Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Figaroo2]

I would have thought check and check is weakness
and would have C-bet.

Ok so you cbet and one of two things can happen
A) One or both has an ace and calls or raises.
B) Both had weaker hands and fold. In a 4 bet pot probably TT JJ QQ
Congrats you either bloated the pot against a better hand or folded out weaker hands that probably have 2 outs that might have bluffed at it if you checked.
So if you check you open the door for better hands to bet or weaker hands to bluff. As either is possible I would normally call one bet on the flop. Stronger hands will bet again and you can fold. Hands like TT-QQ will normally check it down from this point and you usually win. This is a standard way ahead /way behind spot that is a basic regular post flop scenario that beginners need to get their heads around.

 

[Figaroo2]

Do we call against this fishy player

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $12.73 (63.7 bb)
BB: $20 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $23.68 (118.4 bb) VPIP: 30, PFR: 3, 3B: 0, AF: 2.3, Hands: 74
MP1: $10.34 (51.7 bb)
MP2: $20 (100 bb)
MP3: $38.57 (192.9 bb)
Hero (CO): $21.63 (108.2 bb)
BTN: $35.69 (178.5 bb)VPIP: 53, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 2.5, Hands: 62

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5

6

UTG+2 raises to $0.45, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.45, BTN calls $0.45, 2 folds
I decided to call here as the original raiser wasn't much of a cbettor or barreller so I expected to see the turn and maybe the river


Flop: ($1.65) A

4

7

(3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $0.82, BTN calls $0.82, UTG+2 folds

Turn: ($3.29) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.46, BTN calls $2.46

River: ($8.21) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $4.10, BTN raises to $12.30
Hero?
I think he has 44 77 A8 for a boat most of the time but is he bad enough to do this with A4 A7 89?

 

[Aces2w1n]

These players generally call you when they have their bad hand. And raise or shove only when you are beat.

The only hand you beat that could possibly get out of hand is 86 or perhaps AT or something like that.... hes quite passive as well.

i'd say an easy fold here but you got a bluff catcher. I'd say he's a calling station so when he does put money in, he's good.

 

[Talden]

Aces here's one for you. Different dynamic here. The were not near the calling stations as the other day. I think being half drunk helped me here..lol

Revolution Gaming Network - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $6.19 (VPIP: 31.25, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 16)
BB: $3.87 (VPIP: 54.55, PFR: 19.48, 3Bet Preflop: 3.13, Hands: 78)
UTG: $1.36 (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
Hero (CO): $3.66
BTN: $3.52 (VPIP: 41.67, PFR: 29.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.06) Hero has K<font color='black'>♣</font> K<font color='red'>♦</font>

fold, Hero raises to $0.12, BTN calls $0.12, SB calls $0.10, fold

Flop: ($0.40, 3 players) 2<font color='red'>♥</font> Q<font color='red'>♦</font> A<font color='black'>♠</font>
SB checks, Hero bets $0.20, fold, fold

Spoiler

Hero wins $0.38

 

[Figaroo2]

Talden did you read the post I made above before or after this hand?
You will get maximum EV by checking your KK rather than betting it.
Say for example one of them has QJ QK. Once you check he may think his 2nd pair is good enough to take a stab and bets say 30c Into the 40c pot. You call and suddenly he realises you could still have an ace and it gets checked down and you win. That way you extract 70 rather than 40c.

 

[rhombus]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $12.73 (63.7 bb)
BB: $20 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $23.68 (118.4 bb) VPIP: 30, PFR: 3, 3B: 0, AF: 2.3, Hands: 74
MP1: $10.34 (51.7 bb)
MP2: $20 (100 bb)
MP3: $38.57 (192.9 bb)
Hero (CO): $21.63 (108.2 bb)
BTN: $35.69 (178.5 bb)VPIP: 53, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 2.5, Hands: 62

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5

6

UTG+2 raises to $0.45, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.45, BTN calls $0.45, 2 folds
I decided to call here as the original raiser wasn't much of a cbettor or barreller so I expected to see the turn and maybe the river


Flop: ($1.65) A

4

7

(3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $0.82, BTN calls $0.82, UTG+2 folds

Turn: ($3.29) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.46, BTN calls $2.46

River: ($8.21) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $4.10, BTN raises to $12.30
Hero?
I think he has 44 77 A8 for a boat most of the time but is he bad enough to do this with A4 A7 89?

If they had 44 or 77 wouldn't they raise the Turn once the board had more draws and to stop a killer card on the River, especially as you are betting and representing a strong hand

 

[John A]

Hi all, first time posting in this thread I believe. So first and foremost I want to thank John for the free E-book. When i first read it, I think it went mostly over my head as I was a very new newbie. But having a year in OLP now , I am understanding it better. So again, thanks. -I posted this hand in my new thread, TALS POKER RUN. But since I haven't had much traffic there yet I'm also posting here. So anyone that wants to stop by my thread and critique my hands, please do. On this hand I believe I played it great PF, or should I say I played it like I have read is correct. But OTF, I am totally lost as to what to do. UTG was a total calling station. I know its not pertinent to this hand but at 85 hands he was still 60+ VPIP. At least I made most of my profit off of him, so I am learning..lol Thanks all. Have a good un..

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $0.58 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 20)
SB: $2.39 (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 5.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
BB: $0.43 (VPIP: 38.01, PFR: 1.18, 3Bet Preflop: 3.51, Hands: 174)
UTG: $2.39 (VPIP: 80.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
MP: $1.95 (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
Hero (CO): $1.20

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K< color='black'>♠</color> K<color='red'>♦</color>

UTG raises to $0.04, MP raises to $0.12, Hero raises to $0.36, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.32, MP calls $0.24

Flop: ($1.11, 3 players) 5<color='black'>♣</color> 7<color='black'>♣</color> A<color='red'>♥</color>
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.11, 3 players) 8<color='black'>♣</color>
UTG bets $0.70, fold, fold

Spoiler

UTG wins $1.06

Glad you're enjoying the book and welcome. I'm going to put up a coupon for the workbook this week, which haven't done on here before, so I'd encourage you to check that out as well.

So multi-way, I think you played this fine in position. When UTG bets into both of you, a fold is the highest EV play here at these stakes. nh.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Aces here's one for you. Different dynamic here. The were not near the calling stations as the other day. I think being half drunk helped me here..lol

Revolution Gaming Network - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $6.19 (VPIP: 31.25, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 16)
BB: $3.87 (VPIP: 54.55, PFR: 19.48, 3Bet Preflop: 3.13, Hands: 78)
UTG: $1.36 (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
Hero (CO): $3.66
BTN: $3.52 (VPIP: 41.67, PFR: 29.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.06) Hero has K<font color='black'>♣</font> K<font color='red'>♦</font>

fold, Hero raises to $0.12, BTN calls $0.12, SB calls $0.10, fold

Flop: ($0.40, 3 players) 2<font color='red'>♥</font> Q<font color='red'>♦</font> A<font color='black'>♠</font>
SB checks, Hero bets $0.20, fold, fold

Spoiler

Hero wins $0.38

for me cbetting is here is player dependant... if someone calls u light with weak Aces i like betting and turning my hand into a bluff so we can put them in hard spots... but we must apply pressure and continue betting... it also requires a strong tight image.

if players bit more thoughtful checking looks more powerful than betting sometimes on flop and we can get these guys calling a river bet with smaller pp.

i like winning flop easy because no stress just becaeeful u dont do sizing tells

 

[rhombus]

Glad you're enjoying the book and welcome. I'm going to put up a coupon for the workbook this week, which haven't done on here before, so I'd encourage you to check that out as well.

So multi-way, I think you played this fine in position. When UTG bets into both of you, a fold is the highest EV play here at these stakes. nh.

Maybe create a separate thread so we can work through the workbook as a group

 

[John A]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $12.73 (63.7 bb)
BB: $20 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $23.68 (118.4 bb) VPIP: 30, PFR: 3, 3B: 0, AF: 2.3, Hands: 74
MP1: $10.34 (51.7 bb)
MP2: $20 (100 bb)
MP3: $38.57 (192.9 bb)
Hero (CO): $21.63 (108.2 bb)
BTN: $35.69 (178.5 bb)VPIP: 53, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 2.5, Hands: 62

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5

6

UTG+2 raises to $0.45, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.45, BTN calls $0.45, 2 folds
I decided to call here as the original raiser wasn't much of a cbettor or barreller so I expected to see the turn and maybe the river


Flop: ($1.65) A

4

7

(3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $0.82, BTN calls $0.82, UTG+2 folds

Turn: ($3.29) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.46, BTN calls $2.46

River: ($8.21) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $4.10, BTN raises to $12.30
Hero?
I think he has 44 77 A8 for a boat most of the time but is he bad enough to do this with A4 A7 89?

Not a huge fan of the pre-flop call vs UTG opener. You're a few people short, so it's borderline I guess. I'll assume you knew your table well.

Yeah I mean in spots like this it always comes down to the number of combos he'll over value and raise w/ you beat vs. the ones that are for pure value. The fishier your opponent is, the harder it is to determine how many combos they will over value and how often. I don't think you're seeing bluffs with this sizing and the way this hand played out more than 2% of the time.

So this hand is pretty easy in that respect, especially when it's bet by you the entire time. The main hand he'd over value would be 8x, and there just aren't combos of that, which make sense that aren't a boat. So you're left with AK/AQ and pure bluffs. Which again, I don't think it's happening enough. The other consideration is a split pot as well. But I think if you add up the combos that you're obviously beat by, by perhaps one AK and a split pot, and the odds you're getting, it's not enough. Fold.

 

[Talden]

Thanks Ace. Bruce and I had a little chat in the league FR , and i read the post above my hand, and I totally see the light on where a check would get more value out of this hand.I may be slow, but I can learn..lol As for as bet sizing, Im still working on that for better value. But, as a normal everyday, standard c-bet I use the half pot button for consistency. But, am i seeing things or will a 1/4 pot or 3xbb cbet usually induce more folds than a 3/4 pot bet? It looks trappy i guess. Hve a good un all!!

 

[Figaroo2]

Not a huge fan of the pre-flop call vs UTG opener. You're a few people short, so it's borderline I guess. I'll assume you knew your table well.

Yeah I mean in spots like this it always comes down to the number of combos he'll over value and raise w/ you beat vs. the ones that are for pure value. The fishier your opponent is, the harder it is to determine how many combos they will over value and how often. I don't think you're seeing bluffs with this sizing and the way this hand played out more than 2% of the time.

So this hand is pretty easy in that respect, especially when it's bet by you the entire time. The main hand he'd over value would be 8x, and there just aren't combos of that, which make sense that aren't a boat. So you're left with AK/AQ and pure bluffs. Which again, I don't think it's happening enough. The other consideration is a split pot as well. But I think if you add up the combos that you're obviously beat by, by perhaps one AK and a split pot, and the odds you're getting, it's not enough. Fold.

Thanks guys I actually liked the open here, the UTG player is fishy and passive, if I call then the fish on my left comes along as well. If the board doesn't pair on the end then I probably stack the fish on my left with my well disguised straight.

Yeah Rhom he's so bad he doesn't realise raising the turn is better,
I did fold.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Thanks guys I actually liked the open here, the UTG player is fishy and passive, if I call then the fish on my left comes along as well. If the board doesn't pair on the end then I probably stack the fish on my left with my well disguised straight.

Yeah Rhom he's so bad he doesn't realise raising the turn is better,
I did fold.

depends what he had though

 

[John A]

Maybe create a separate thread so we can work through the workbook as a group

Possibly..

 

[rhombus]

Possibly..

Also maybe instead of Hand Histories, maybe use common scenarios.

That way i wouldnt have to post all the S41T hands I call with in BB when OOP lol

i.e.

UTG Raises we are in BB (OOP) with 34s Effective only 70BBs ~ FOLD

And hands like KK wa/wb etc

UTG Raise we 3Bet (IP) KK Flop A74 rainbow. UTG Checks. Whats the default play maybe CBET 30% of time /Check70% of time

If we could build up maybe just 50 of common situations, would be a great start. Although that 50 could mutliply alot when you take into acount :-

Single Raised/3Bet Pot/In Position or Out of Position (multiply by 8)

Single Raised Pot In Position as the Raiser
Single Raised Pot Out of Position as the Raiser

Single Raised Pot In Position as the Caller
Single Raised Pot Out if Position as the Caller

3Bet Pot In Position Raiser
3Bet Pot In Position Caller

3Bet Pot Out of Position Raiser
3Bet Pot Out of Position Caller

then multiply by common Player Types
vs TAG/Tight Passive/LAG/Loose Passive (Multiply by 4)

I know there are far more combinations and multiples which is why the game isnt solvable but it can make the game easier

EG. Raise AK UTG Big Blind Calls Flop - A72 Rainbow
As single Raised Pot In Position just need to multiply by 4 for the player types

simple example vs Loose Passive Bet Bet and fold if they Shove


Thoughts ?????????????

 

[John A]

Also maybe instead of Hand Histories, maybe use common scenarios.

That way i wouldnt have to post all the S41T hands I call with in BB when OOP lol

i.e.

UTG Raises we are in BB (OOP) with 34s Effective only 70BBs ~ FOLD

And hands like KK wa/wb etc

UTG Raise we 3Bet (IP) KK Flop A74 rainbow. UTG Checks. Whats the default play maybe CBET 30% of time /Check70% of time

If we could build up maybe just 50 of common situations, would be a great start. Although that 50 could mutliply alot when you take into acount :-

Single Raised/3Bet Pot/In Position or Out of Position (multiply by 8)

Single Raised Pot In Position as the Raiser
Single Raised Pot Out of Position as the Raiser

Single Raised Pot In Position as the Caller
Single Raised Pot Out if Position as the Caller

3Bet Pot In Position Raiser
3Bet Pot In Position Caller

3Bet Pot Out of Position Raiser
3Bet Pot Out of Position Caller

then multiply by common Player Types
vs TAG/Tight Passive/LAG/Loose Passive (Multiply by 4)

I know there are far more combinations and multiples which is why the game isnt solvable but it can make the game easier

EG. Raise AK UTG Big Blind Calls Flop - A72 Rainbow
As single Raised Pot In Position just need to multiply by 4 for the player types

simple example vs Loose Passive Bet Bet and fold if they Shove


Thoughts ?????????????

Not sure if you remember that general line tree we made in this thread. It covered a lot of common scenarios. I wasn't 100% sure how I felt about approaching the game like this, but was thinking about it in terms of discussing and understanding common spots in order to increase everyone's confidence in their decision making. We could re-visit that though and break it down more.

 

[John A]

Quick question for you guys...

What books today would you recommend for learning players? What has helped you the most?

 

[Figaroo2]

Not sure if you remember that general line tree we made in this thread. It covered a lot of common scenarios. I wasn't 100% sure how I felt about approaching the game like this, but was thinking about it in terms of discussing and understanding common spots in order to increase everyone's confidence in their decision making. We could re-visit that though and break it down more.

I saved a copy of the flop chart that I refresh from everynow and then, its still really useful. ( edit...even more so if you could read it..edit i made it bigger....)

 

[Figaroo2]

Quick question for you guys...

What books today would you recommend for learning players? What has helped you the most?

For me personally.
Polished Poker!!
Phil Gordon's Little Green Book
Harrington on Cash Games
There will of course be more recent stuff now.

 

[John A]

I saved a copy of the flop chart that I refresh from everynow and then, its still really useful. ( edit...even more so if you could read it..edit i made it bigger....)

Thanks for the re-post. Perhaps we can revisit this and go over it.

 

[Figaroo2]

Thanks for the re-post. Perhaps we can revisit this and go over it.

There were others as well, this was the only one I saved.
Just going to the books, The little Green Book was excellent I'd recommend it to anyone. The only thing Gordon did odd was recommend making it 3.5 to 4 when stealing from the button

 

[John A]

There were others as well, this was the only one I saved.
Just going to the books, The little Green Book was excellent I'd recommend it to anyone. The only thing Gordon did odd was recommend making it 3.5 to 4 when stealing from the button

Yeah, the advice w/ Gordon is probably a little out dated. Do you know if he still plays btw? I haven't really seen him around in a long time.

I have a new video driver suit so I can do some new videos with webcam... yeah. You guys can all see my ugly mug as I chastise your play... woot!

Any brave souls out there for a recommend hand to do a video review?

 

[Figaroo2]

Yeah, the advice w/ Gordon is probably a little out dated. Do you know if he still plays btw? I haven't really seen him around in a long time.
I have a new video driver suit so I can do some new videos with webcam... yeah. You guys can all see my ugly mug as I chastise your play... woot!
Any brave souls out there for a recommend hand to do a video review?

Gordon packed up at least 4-5 years ago and went into online messaging businesses. I don't think he was anything but an aggressive tourny player, even he thought he was a bit of a fish in cash games

With the extra time I've had I recently did my first video of the key hands played when I took down a CC Freeroll with 430 players in mid Dec. I was using Microsoft expression encoder4 screen capture but the free version is limited to 10 min vids.
Bit of fun, its on you tube but private cos its pretty rough around the edges and my voice is deep and I don't keep my volume up very well. When I've redone it I'll open it up. There is a funny bit where I had AA twice in a row against the same guy.
I'll have a look for some interesting cash hands.

 

[Figaroo2]

I thought this was an interesting turn decision

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $3.96 (39.6 bb) VPIP: 86, PFR: 17, 3B: 0, AF: 0.9, Hands: 42
BB: $31.60 (316 bb)
UTG: $12.79 (127.9 bb)VPIP: 20, PFR: 12, 3B: 4, AF: 3.8, Hands: 113
MP: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $4.17 (41.7 bb)
Hero (BTN): $13.64 (136.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q

T

UTG raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Maybe borderline dubious preflop but the fish on my left was really bad and tilting and I wanted to get into hands with him. We were also a little deeper than usual, if the fish wasn't there and almost certainly coming along then this is a fold preflop against the UTG stats.

Flop: ($1) A

8

3

(3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $0.57, Hero calls $0.57, SB calls $0.57

Turn: ($2.71) 3

(3 players)
SB bets $3.09 and is all-in, UTG raises to $11.86,
Hero??

I was sweating with someone who was shouting "fold fold paired board" at me but after I bit of thought I wasn't happy with folding.
I figured a value hand (boat) wouldn't size like this, they would flat and want to keep me in. A King high flush probably doesn't shove as it has to take into account boats.
His sizing shows he is still scared of the flush arriving and wants to drive flush draws out.

Spoiler

Hero calls $11.86

River: ($29.52) 2

(3 players, 1 is all-in)
UTG bets $0.06 and is all-in, Hero calls $0.06

Results: $29.64 pot ($1.33 rake)
Final Board: A

8

3

3

2

SB showed A

7

and lost (-$3.96 net)
UTG showed J

A

and lost (-$12.79 net)
Hero showed Q

T

and won $28.31 ($15.52 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

Value of the back door flush

The backdoor flush is a thing of beauty

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players

SB: $11.34 (113.4 bb)
BB: $12.55 (125.5 bb)VPIP: 37, PFR: 7, 3B: 3, AF: 1.9, Hands: 174
CO: $15.35 (153.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $12.58 (125.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

Q

CO folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) 8

5

4

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks ( I probably should have cbet here to charge draws but it smacks his range pretty hard)

Turn: ($0.65) 7

(2 players)
BB bets $0.62, Hero calls $0.62

River: ($1.89) 9

(2 players)
BB bets $1.81,
Ok if this guy has a 6 and it looks likely then he's never folding, so we overbet shove...
Hero raises to $11.66 and is all-in, BB calls $9.82 and is all-in

Results: $25.15 pot ($1 rake)
Final Board: 8

5

4

7

9

BB showed A

6

and lost (-$12.55 net)
Hero showed A

Q

and won $24.15 ($11.60 net)

Oreo and I had a sweat tonight he has a couple of spots to look at..