Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[John A]

Here are a couple of hands that came up one after the other.
Any comments and what do you think is the best play on the river once we whiff?

Pacific, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $33.48 (111.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $30 (100 bb)
MP: $43.16 (143.9 bb)
CO: $47.03 (156.8 bb)
BTN: $12.08 (40.3 bb) VPIP: 26, PFR: 17, 3B: 5, AF: 3.7, Hands: 53

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5

K

2 folds, BTN raises to $0.60, SB folds,
Button steal is 50%, zero fold to 3bet
Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.35) 4

J

2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.67, Hero raises to $2.01, BTN calls $1.34
r: ($8) T

(2 players)
Hero?

You posted these elsewhere and I commented on them correct?

 

[John A]

Book was a good read.
I'll go over it once more and try to apply it to my game, esp. the parts about 3-betting.
I'll try to let you guys know how it goes.

Welcome... just jump in with questions, and or hands. There's a skype study group also. Probably a little whacky right now with the holidays, but you're welcome to join.

 

[John A]

What do you guys think about this hand? It is the Big $5.50 on PokerStars.


Tough spot for me.

Maybe if you can explain why it was tough we could give some better feedback. It seems pretty standard. You can argue about re-raising the flop, but I don't mind the call, and the turn plays itself basically.

 

[John A]

Hand1
Once villain donks Flop then Turn, Do you fold to River Donk as well or do you raise at any point in the hand??

Prima, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $2.02 (101 bb)
BB: $2.96 (148 bb) 50/0 6.0AG 4 Hands
UTG: $1.12 (56 bb)
MP: $1.90 (95 bb)
CO: $0.82 (41 bb)
Hero (BTN): $2.69 (134.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

A

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, SB folds, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) 5

J

K

(2 players)
BB bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08

Turn: ($0.33) 8

(2 players)
BB bets $0.16

I'm really confused, what are you doing? Why aren't you raising?

Hand2
Maybe shouldnt have CBET into villain.
Once I check turn, do I check call Turn and Check Fold River if i don't improve
Prima, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $1.27 (63.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $2.86 (143 bb)
MP: $2.02 (101 bb) 15/15 13 Hands
CO: $2.04 (102 bb)
BTN: $1.34 (67 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T

A

MP raises to $0.06, CO folds, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.24) A

7

2

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.14, MP calls $0.14, 2 folds

Turn: ($0.52) 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.44

I wonder if you can lose less than 100bbs/100 in a spot like this long term. I'm honestly not sure, but I have my doubts. It's probably close.

Any ways, I like the turn c/f. And that's one of the problems with this hand.

 

[John A]

Hand 2. I saw a video recently where Oliver Busquet said its still good practice to check to the raiser, as soon at you donk out you are giving the player in position information through your sizing, just like the guy in hand 1. I think generally if you are going to donk then make it big, near full pot for max fold equity, I don't donk with value hands unless up against a weak calling station..Most of my donk bets will be bluffs with a couple of overcards.

Totally disagree with his reasoning here. Usually donk bets confuse the heck out of people, which is what you want. Confused poker players tend to make bad decisions. You're not giving away info you're making a standard bet size of ~ 2/3rd pot. And doing it for value in some spots against aggressive opponents is awesome and works well. But like everything, you have to be properly evaluating the situation.

Any ways, I'm a big advocate of donk betting, but I'm a donk.

 

[Figaroo2]

You posted these elsewhere and I commented on them correct?

No its the two hands in post 4963, just whether or not we should consider a bluff on the rivers or are the draws just too obvious and generally just the best way to play draws out of position.
I've never really done any study into the best bet sizing for semi bluffing. Your zion course mentioned a module on playing draws but I don't recall one in the roots course.

Anyway in the first hand K5 After the flop check raise and the call it's pretty difficult to call not having a J, maybe he gets sticky with a medium second pair and putting me on a draw.
He just min raised pre so I'd have thought a few more Jacks would be in this opening range.

I'm thinking making the turn sizing more like 75% for a bit of extra fold equity and to drive out the medium 2nd pairs, but half pot is what I'd bet for value. Which do you think is best bearing in mind the turn doesn't change much? He's still not folding a J right?

Your quote has cut the river Td from the 2nd hand into the first. I didn't show the result of either hand.

 

[rhombus]

No its the two hands in post 4963, just whether or not we should consider a bluff on the rivers or are the draws just too obvious and generally just the best way to play draws out of position.
I've never really done any study into the best bet sizing for semi bluffing. Your zion course mentioned a module on playing draws but I don't recall one in the roots course.

Anyway in the first hand K5 After the flop check raise and the call it's pretty difficult to call not having a J, maybe he gets sticky with a medium second pair and putting me on a draw.
He just min raised pre so I'd have thought a few more Jacks would be in this opening range.

I'm thinking making the turn sizing more like 75% for a bit of extra fold equity and to drive out the medium 2nd pairs, but half pot is what I'd bet for value. Which do you think is best bearing in mind the turn doesn't change much? He's still not folding a J right?

Your quote has cut the river Td from the 2nd hand into the first. I didn't show the result of either hand.

Post 4936

 

[John A]

Here are a couple of hands that came up one after the other.
Any comments and what do you think is the best play on the river once we whiff?

Pacific, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $33.48 (111.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $30 (100 bb)
MP: $43.16 (143.9 bb)
CO: $47.03 (156.8 bb)
BTN: $12.08 (40.3 bb) VPIP: 26, PFR: 17, 3B: 5, AF: 3.7, Hands: 53

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5

K

2 folds, BTN raises to $0.60, SB folds,
Button steal is 50%, zero fold to 3bet
Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.35) 4

J

2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.67, Hero raises to $2.01, BTN calls $1.34

Turn: ($5.37) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.68, BTN calls $2.68

River: ($10.73) 3

(2 players)
Hero?

I think you're better off in these spots taking the more aggressive line and 3-betting pre. A call is ok, but I'm talking about specifically with your style of play.

As played, I'd just check/call the flop. If he's a thinking player at all, a CR on that texture is just going to be called super wide. I don't hate the CR, but c/c is much better imho. Different flop texture, then I like it a little better.

Turn is fine... river I'd abort. Anything he's called a CR and turn bet to at this point except for a diamond draw he's calling on that runout. And some diamond draws you beat, so I wouldn't bother bluffing at this point.

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $10 (50 bb) VPIP: 17, PFR: 13, 3B: 7, AF: 2.5, Hands: 2417
Hero (BB): $20 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $7.55 (37.8 bb)
UTG+2: $7.80 (39 bb)VPIP: 29, PFR: 5, 3B: 7, AF: 3.4, Hands: 103
MP1: $21.91 (109.6 bb)
MP2: $20 (100 bb)
MP3: $23.02 (115.1 bb)
CO: $20.20 (101 bb)
BTN: $14.58 (72.9 bb) VPIP: 32, PFR: 5, 3B: 0, AF: 2.5, Hands: 22

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2

5

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.20, 4 folds, BTN calls $0.20, SB completes, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.80) 7

3

4

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, BTN bets $0.80, SB calls $0.80, Hero calls $0.80, UTG+2 raises to $1.60, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.80 (getting the right express odds)

Turn: ($5.60) T

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $1.20, Hero calls $1.20 again getting 5-1 (I'm loathe to raise getting such good odds)

River: ($8) T

(2 players)
Hero?

Limped pot, just bet the flop on that ragged board. Take initiative. Someone is going to bet that pot, why not you? As played, yes, you have to call. Unless this guy is a drooler he should have a big hand, and again on that run out, there's not much you can rep so you need to c/f.

 

[Figaroo2]

I think you're better off in these spots taking the more aggressive line and 3-betting pre. A call is ok, but I'm talking about specifically with your style of play.

As played, I'd just check/call the flop. If he's a thinking player at all, a CR on that texture is just going to be called super wide. I don't hate the CR, but c/c is much better imho. Different flop texture, then I like it a little better.

Turn is fine... river I'd abort. Anything he's called a CR and turn bet to at this point except for a diamond draw he's calling on that runout. And some diamond draws you beat, so I wouldn't bother bluffing at this point.

Limped pot, just bet the flop on that ragged board. Take initiative. Someone is going to bet that pot, why not you? As played, yes, you have to call. Unless this guy is a drooler he should have a big hand, and again on that run out, there's not much you can rep so you need to c/f.

Thanks John
Yeah I folded both, it was whether I could improve on the hands in general.

 

[John A]

Thanks John
Yeah I folded both, it was whether I could improve on the hands in general.

Yw... yeah, just taking more initiative in some spots is more ideal for your game imho. You're playing well.

Happy new year everyone! Here's some poker twitch streams you should be check out this year as well:

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/po...poker-streaming-channels-to-follow-on-twitch/

Pass the blog along if you can. Here's to a profitable and amazing 2017!

 

[Figaroo2]

Taking the initiative with draws

John
Re the draws so generally take the initiative by 3betting (mostly in position) and then simply betting our equity.
What sort of boards, if any, then is it ever better to check raise when we are opp with a decent draw? I actually can't find any other recent hands where I did check raise a draw oop.

Have a look at the following hand then, here we have a bit pretty bad lag (no positional awareness) and I was undecided whether or not to 3bet this particular player type as he doesn't fold to cbets and has a highish (30%) wtsd.
Are you still going to 3bet this sort of player?


poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $3.64 (36.4 bb)
BB: $12.87 (128.7 bb)
MP1: $17.17 (171.7 bb)VPIP: 44, PFR: 19, 3B: 17, AF: 2.2, Hands: 32
MP2: $11.66 (116.6 bb)
MP3: $4.01 (40.1 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.30 (103 bb)
BTN: $14.49 (144.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

5

MP1 raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.40, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 2

6

9

(2 players)
MP1 bets $0.74, Hero calls $0.74

Turn: ($2.43) 3

(2 players)
MP1 bets $1.57, Hero calls $1.57
I picked up the gutter here and still think I have good implied against this player type especially if a 4 hits
I probably would have folded without the extra outs. Not sure what I'm doing on the river if I whiff though as he's not a good bluff candidate, he does go to showdown a fair amount and I'm pretty sure he won't fold an overpair here even to a shove.

River: ($5.57) 6

(2 players)
MP1 bets $14.46 and is all-in, Hero calls $7.59 and is all-in

Results: $20.75 pot ($0.93 rake)
Final Board: 2

6

9

3

6

MP1 showed Q

A

and lost (-$10.30 net)
Hero showed A

5

and won $19.82 ($9.52 net)

 

[firstcrack]

Hello. I had seen this thread before but never had taken the time to investigate. I took a few minutes to download the Polished Poker e-Book and began reading it this afternoon. Very insightful reading so far, and from time to time it is making me stop and think, "Could he be talking about me?" Thank you for a great resource.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Yeah draws oop i try to play aggressive cuz once they hit its hard to get paid.


a wise person said once u make ur money early in the hand from good players and you make ur money from the fish in later streets

so maybe ur answer isnt board related but more opponent dependant

 

[John A]

John
Re the draws so generally take the initiative by 3betting (mostly in position) and then simply betting our equity.
What sort of boards, if any, then is it ever better to check raise when we are opp with a decent draw? I actually can't find any other recent hands where I did check raise a draw oop.

In general, I think working on spots to take more initiative for yourself is going to make the game easier for you. It does for everyone, as long as they understand how they are balancing their ranges and aggression. But you tend to take more passive lines, and lines where you force yourself to make a hand a lot. So this year, I'd encourage you to take lines that leave you options to not have to make a hand, and get better hands to fold. The below hand is an example of that. But to your question on when the CR draws OOP, you can limit it to more ideal spots only, and C/c and lead in other spots. Ideal boards:

Qx 7x 5x
Kx 6x 7x
Kx Jx 3x
Jx 4x 5x

These are flush draw boards. That's not static, but just some basic examples. Where the raise comes from, where you're calling from and your opponent factor into CR, or c/c spots.

Have a look at the following hand then, here we have a bit pretty bad lag (no positional awareness) and I was undecided whether or not to 3bet this particular player type as he doesn't fold to cbets and has a highish (30%) wtsd.
Are you still going to 3bet this sort of player?


Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $3.64 (36.4 bb)
BB: $12.87 (128.7 bb)
MP1: $17.17 (171.7 bb)VPIP: 44, PFR: 19, 3B: 17, AF: 2.2, Hands: 32
MP2: $11.66 (116.6 bb)
MP3: $4.01 (40.1 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.30 (103 bb)
BTN: $14.49 (144.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

5

MP1 raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.40, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 2

6

9

(2 players)
MP1 bets $0.74, Hero calls $0.74

Turn: ($2.43) 3

(2 players)
MP1 bets $1.57, Hero calls $1.57
I picked up the gutter here and still think I have good implied against this player type especially if a 4 hits
I probably would have folded without the extra outs. Not sure what I'm doing on the river if I whiff though as he's not a good bluff candidate, he does go to showdown a fair amount and I'm pretty sure he won't fold an overpair here even to a shove.

River: ($5.57) 6

(2 players)
MP1 bets $14.46 and is all-in, Hero calls $7.59 and is all-in

Results: $20.75 pot ($0.93 rake)
Final Board: 2

6

9

3

6

MP1 showed Q

A

and lost (-$10.30 net)
Hero showed A

5

and won $19.82 ($9.52 net)

Well, I wouldn't say he's a LAG, he's just loose. But any ways, yeah, you need to be raising that turn or flop. Everything is about what you're repping right? Could you flat 99/TT/JJ and raise that flop a lot? Yes. Sometimes you're flatting the flop with 22/66 but you're also sometimes raising. On the turn you have monster outs, but what can you get to fold out that beats you that bets that turn (because it's not a great turn card for your opponent to barrel, meaning he should have a real hand more often if he continues here). You can get 6x, mid pairs that will still continue a lot like 44,55,77,88. Only a % of the time they will fold out. Can you get worse hands to get in? Yes, worse turned club draws, worse diamond draws, and straight draws / combo draws.

That's all it comes down to w/ your decisions in these spots. What am I repping? What better hands can fold out? What worse hands can I get in? What hands stack off that beat me?

 

[John A]

Hello. I had seen this thread before but never had taken the time to investigate. I took a few minutes to download the Polished Poker e-Book and began reading it this afternoon. Very insightful reading so far, and from time to time it is making me stop and think, "Could he be talking about me?" Thank you for a great resource.

Hehe... yes, I'm talking about you. Kidding... but welcome, and glad you're enjoying the ebook. All questions addressed here.

 

[Aces2w1n]

In general, I think working on spots to take more initiative for yourself is going to make the game easier for you. It does for everyone, as long as they understand how they are balancing their ranges and aggression. But you tend to take more passive lines, and lines where you force yourself to make a hand a lot. So this year, I'd encourage you to take lines that leave you options to not have to make a hand, and get better hands to fold. The below hand is an example of that. But to your question on when the CR draws OOP, you can limit it to more ideal spots only, and C/c and lead in other spots. Ideal boards:

Qx 7x 5x
Kx 6x 7x
Kx Jx 3x
Jx 4x 5x

These are flush draw boards. That's not static, but just some basic examples. Where the raise comes from, where you're calling from and your opponent factor into CR, or c/c spots.

Well, I wouldn't say he's a LAG, he's just loose. But any ways, yeah, you need to be raising that turn or flop. Everything is about what you're repping right? Could you flat 99/TT/JJ and raise that flop a lot? Yes. Sometimes you're flatting the flop with 22/66 but you're also sometimes raising. On the turn you have monster outs, but what can you get to fold out that beats you that bets that turn (because it's not a great turn card for your opponent to barrel, meaning he should have a real hand more often if he continues here). You can get 6x, mid pairs that will still continue a lot like 44,55,77,88. Only a % of the time they will fold out. Can you get worse hands to get in? Yes, worse turned club draws, worse diamond draws, and straight draws / combo draws.

That's all it comes down to w/ your decisions in these spots. What am I repping? What better hands can fold out? What worse hands can I get in? What hands stack off that beat me?

sorry the A5 monster draw hand


With hands like this specifically with nut flush and straight draws on turns i always raise because i want to build the pot oop because its hard to get paid oop so build it when opponent is happy and if we get folds i win as well. and i will tend to shove all hands that give me the flush and draws and also kings as a bluff to fold better hands


a while ago i went through a stage where i tested being an aggro monkey and was 60% aggression and felt comfortable.. i tested check raising a lot of spots but now im down to 50% i feel passive but check raise most monster draws. Not much less the only other reason id check raise is if theres action killers on the river

 

[John A]

Well, like I said above, like all things, there needs to be a balance. It's not horrible to always play your draws hyper aggressive, but it's not the highest EV line always either. There's certain spots where your hand is going to look like a draw most of the time, and you just defeat the purpose of CR because you won't get folds.

 

[ludomaniaco24]

A study group I hope to participate for some time that I have the curiosity of how to learn a maneuver and learn in poker N 100 I am going to follow this post and to read it in a careful and careful way to know how to participate in a constant way

 

[John A]

A study group I hope to participate for some time that I have the curiosity of how to learn a maneuver and learn in poker N 100 I am going to follow this post and to read it in a careful and careful way to know how to participate in a constant way

Cool... jump in. Download the ebook also. There's a skype group you can join and sweat other members.

 

[ludomaniaco24]

I'm interested in the study group by skype can you give me more information

 

[Talden]

Hi all, first time posting in this thread I believe. So first and foremost I want to thank John for the free E-book. When i first read it, I think it went mostly over my head as I was a very new newbie. But having a year in OLP now , I am understanding it better. So again, thanks. -I posted this hand in my new thread, TALS POKER RUN. But since I haven't had much traffic there yet I'm also posting here. So anyone that wants to stop by my thread and critique my hands, please do. On this hand I believe I played it great PF, or should I say I played it like I have read is correct. But OTF, I am totally lost as to what to do. UTG was a total calling station. I know its not pertinent to this hand but at 85 hands he was still 60+ VPIP. At least I made most of my profit off of him, so I am learning..lol Thanks all. Have a good un..

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $0.58 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 20)
SB: $2.39 (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 5.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
BB: $0.43 (VPIP: 38.01, PFR: 1.18, 3Bet Preflop: 3.51, Hands: 174)
UTG: $2.39 (VPIP: 80.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
MP: $1.95 (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
Hero (CO): $1.20

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K< color='black'>♠</color> K<color='red'>♦</color>

UTG raises to $0.04, MP raises to $0.12, Hero raises to $0.36, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.32, MP calls $0.24

Flop: ($1.11, 3 players) 5<color='black'>♣</color> 7<color='black'>♣</color> A<color='red'>♥</color>
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.11, 3 players) 8<color='black'>♣</color>
UTG bets $0.70, fold, fold

Spoiler

UTG wins $1.06

 

[Aces2w1n]

half the people are going to say well played the other half will say why didnt you cbet.

against a non thinker i think cbetting is fine here because qwe are expected to have an Ace in our range and most ppl will call with worse with 1 street. draws as well or qq jj

which leads to me to this question... what do u do with Axs or AK in this spot... this is a question u should ask yourself....


then checking flop can be seen as strength but against a dumb non thinker it means ur weak and what do people do against those who are weak... they bet against you.

AP i think given mw its an easy fold and its an easy fold... but i wouldnt mind cbetting here because we are the preflop aggressor. position and initiative are two very powerful things to have and people dont like calling oop unless they have a strong hand


next argument will say why do we want worse hands to fold?

well with a drawy board mw. its a blessing to win the hand right there and then and make poker easy for us.

 

[Figaroo2]

You played it fine.
KK is a fine hand pre flop but once the flop comes down with an ace your kings quickly change to nothing more than a medium strength hand that I usually try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.
Here in a 4bet pot I would expect to be up against at least one ace nearly always. One player might have JJ QQ but to bet hoping you are ahead is futile and I would NEVER bet here multi way.
If this was a single raised pot heads up against 1 villain I would check call one street to allow him to bluff his JJ QQ in position. If he fires twice into an ace board then he will usually have it and you can safely fold.
I notice you only had $1.20 at the start of the hand. If the flop had been AK5 here you might have picked up $2.40 clear profit they both had a big ace... If you had been sitting with 100bb $2.00 you may have won $4 getting your stack up to $6. So potentially missing $1.60...Sitting with less than 100bb also flags you as a beginner to better regs who may pick on you as a result. Beginners tend to play very straightforward and can be pushed off a lot of hands with a bit of aggressive play. I am always on the lookout for guys with less than 100bb on the table.
A further point on this is that with a non standard stack size you need to think much harder about your bet sizing and judging when you are becoming pot committed..it takes extra thinking that isn't really necessary.

 

[Talden]

which leads to me to this question... what do u do with Axs or AK in this spot... this is a question u should ask yourself....
Very good point Aces, got me to think outside my own little box, thanks
Ya'll both give, good insight into hands. I have been reading along for a year now, just not participating. I think the reason I didn't cbet here was he was calling cbets 100% at this point, and I couldn't see neither of them NOT having the Ace. But have to say that after I took .50-.75 off of the guy, he started finding folds when i got active in a hand..lol And Bruce, ACR offers FR and 6-max with both having a short version, they also do a CAP version where the max that can be bet on a hand is .60 PT4 doesn't pick up the short versions. I was on a short table as that was all I could get on. But thank you for reinforcing the buy in at max lesson. I didn't use to do that, don't know if I was scared or just timid. Now I have auto top up set and I look for tables with short stacks..lol But on the cap tables I just usually make sure I have over .60 at the start of a hand, that way the may underestimate me , at least until i'm over max buy in..lol So in the future if I post a hand from a short table I will try to notate it. Thanks guys

 

[RickAversion]

I would have thought check and check is weakness
and would have C-bet.