Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[rhombus]

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $8.92 (89.2 bb)
BB: $9.15 (91.5 bb)
UTG+1: $6.26 (62.6 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $10 (100 bb)
MP1: $12.19 (121.9 bb) VPIP: 14, PFR: 13, 3B: 8, AF: 2.5, Hands: 402
MP2: $3.20 (32 bb)
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $12.76 (127.6 bb)
BTN: $2.79 (27.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J♠ J♣
UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, MP1 raises to $1, 6 folds, Hero calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.15) 9♥ 3♣ 4♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $1.12, Hero calls $1.12

Turn: ($4.39) 2♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $2.09, MP1 raises to $10.07
I bet intending to fold to a shove, the more i looked at his stats the more I wanted to call. He was 8% 3bet from MP
Hero?

I do that alot bet knowing if they shove I fold, although you have more willpower than me and I end up calling lol.

He may have high 3Bet but has tight preflop 14/13. In terms of assigning ranges with regards to stats, which takes precedence, VPIP/PFR or 3Bet or maybe even Aggression when dealing with postflop actions.

PS 3betting A5s fits the bill for a wheel

 

[or3o1990]

I let the jj go, Bruce. If that was the plan the I say stick to it. You must be assuming he's unlikely to bluff above the turn if your plan was b/f. Can he do this with 88-10 10 and or nut flush draws? He can but is it often enough to justify calling? Probably not.

What was it that made you change your mind when you already had it planned out?

 

[Figaroo2]

I let the jj go, Bruce. If that was the plan the I say stick to it. You must be assuming he's unlikely to bluff above the turn if your plan was b/f. Can he do this with 88-10 10 and or nut flush draws? He can but is it often enough to justify calling? Probably not.

What was it that made you change your mind when you already had it planned out?

That he was 8% 3bet from MP was what changed my mind which brings in a lot of Ax hands that we do beat...but I don't think he ever shoves those here over the top of my lead out unless they are suited clubs.
So I tanked and I called he had KK same as Rhoms hand. I also called because John said sometimes you just have to gii here. At least in the future this guy isn't going to bluff me much. It just felt like a bad call and I knew it.

 

[or3o1990]

The reason I ask is because it seemed like you already knew what to do and just changed your mind last second. I do it sometimes and it's almost always a bad decision. Even when it happens to work out.

 

[Figaroo2]

Rhom your two AK hands they are both late position raises and 3bets by the button and SB so I think you can 4 bet both spots quite comfortably.

 

[Gektor610]

Gektor 610

In, and in my case I fear it might be getting to the first level before I can think about a next level

 

[Aces2w1n]

I do that alot bet knowing if they shove I fold, although you have more willpower than me and I end up calling lol.

He may have high 3Bet but has tight preflop 14/13. In terms of assigning ranges with regards to stats, which takes precedence, VPIP/PFR or 3Bet or maybe even Aggression when dealing with postflop actions.

PS 3betting A5s fits the bill for a wheel

according to pokertracker 8% is ATs+ 66+ AJo+... I can't assign the wheel quite easily. Still a fold to a shove on turn though.

Why not check? Or we hoping to get calls from flush draws now as well and protect?

 

[John A]

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $8.92 (89.2 bb)
BB: $9.15 (91.5 bb)
UTG+1: $6.26 (62.6 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $10 (100 bb)
MP1: $12.19 (121.9 bb) VPIP: 14, PFR: 13, 3B: 8, AF: 2.5, Hands: 402
MP2: $3.20 (32 bb)
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $12.76 (127.6 bb)
BTN: $2.79 (27.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J♠ J♣
UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, MP1 raises to $1, 6 folds, Hero calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.15) 9♥ 3♣ 4♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $1.12, Hero calls $1.12

Turn: ($4.39) 2♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $2.09, MP1 raises to $10.07
I bet intending to fold to a shove, the more i looked at his stats the more I wanted to call. He was 8% 3bet from MP
Hero?

8% from MP with that sample is pretty useless honestly. You have to get out of that habit of considering those kinds of stats in these small samples unless if it's on some extreme side of the spectrum - 0%, 40%, etc... 8% tells us nothing really. I'd love for you to break that habit. I love that you're considering all of that information, but it I think you'd be better off setting more boundaries for yourself in that area. Ok, I've harped on you enough... now to the hand.

That being said, I'm not a huge fan of the donk w/ plan on folding the turn. Different stack sizes, situation, maybe. How about you find me a range of hands for villain you think is reasonable that would allow you to bet/fold that turn? Let's run two sets of hands. Something with a few bluffs, something with all value.

 

[Figaroo2]

Ok these two hands were today, i'm getting confused in this spot now.
I do need to think about ranges and a bit of gto against the regs here.

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $13.36 (133.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $11.57 (115.7 bb)
UTG+1: $10.20 (102 bb)
UTG+2: $5.43 (54.3 bb)
MP1: $20.87 (208.7 bb)
MP2: $10.02 (100.2 bb) VPIP: 17, PFR: 10, 3B: 3, AF: 1.2, Hands: 863
MP3: $4.30 (43 bb)
CO: $10.34 (103.4 bb)
BTN: $16.36 (163.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J:heart: J:diamond:
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.10, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.45, UTG+2 folds, MP2 raises to $1.40, Hero calls $0.95

Flop: ($2.95) 9:spade: 5:club: 8:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $2.11, MP2 raises to $8.62 and is all-in
Hero ??

Ok that is my last donk lead out. I'm trying to get them to fold their overcards / define the ranges and its not working, I'm considering just set mining JJ TT in this spot and giving up.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $12.36 (123.6 bb)
BB: $4 (40 bb)
UTG+1: $3.76 (37.6 bb)
UTG+2: $10.57 (105.7 bb)
MP1: $10 (100 bb) decent Tag reg
MP2: $4.27 (42.7 bb)
MP3: $20.64 (206.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $21.95 (219.5 bb)
BTN: $10.60 (106 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T:club: T:spade:
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.30, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 9:diamond: 3:spade: 8:club: (2 players)
MP1 bets $0.47, Hero ?
(I raised and got shoved on, anyone just calling along in the dark?)

 

[Figaroo2]

Extracting value. Best way forward here?

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $9.90 (99 bb) 18/15 35% agg stealing 46% ABC reg
Hero (BB): $18.20 (182 bb)
MP1: $10 (100 bb)
MP2: $18.43 (184.3 bb)
MP3: $14.71 (147.1 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $8.72 (87.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7:spade: 9:spade:
5 folds, SB raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.40) T:club: 5:heart: 8:heart: (2 players)
SB bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.80, SB calls $0.50

Turn: ($2) J:diamond: (2 players)
SB bets $1.43!!??
Hero?
( I raised, he's going to be drawing here a lot, sizing?)

 

[TimovieMan]

( I raised, he's going to be drawing here a lot, sizing?)

Since we want him to call, I wouldn't go much bigger than a minraise. 3.20$ or so. Leaves a SPR of less than 1 too. Good to get stacks in, imo.

 

[John A]

Ok these two hands were today, i'm getting confused in this spot now.
I do need to think about ranges and a bit of gto against the regs here.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $13.36 (133.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $11.57 (115.7 bb)
UTG+1: $10.20 (102 bb)
UTG+2: $5.43 (54.3 bb)
MP1: $20.87 (208.7 bb)
MP2: $10.02 (100.2 bb) VPIP: 17, PFR: 10, 3B: 3, AF: 1.2, Hands: 863
MP3: $4.30 (43 bb)
CO: $10.34 (103.4 bb)
BTN: $16.36 (163.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J♥ J♦
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.10, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.45, UTG+2 folds, MP2 raises to $1.40, Hero calls $0.95

Flop: ($2.95) 9♠ 5♣ 8♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $2.11, MP2 raises to $8.62 and is all-in
Hero ??

Ok that is my last donk lead out. I'm trying to get them to fold their overcards / define the ranges and its not working, I'm considering just set mining JJ TT in this spot and giving up.

Why do you want to push him off his air? Don't set mine, just keep them to make bigger mistakes w/ their hands. You're allowing your opponents to play too perfectly right now.

And I assume you'll go back later and try and come up with some ranges for that other turn hand? I think it would be good to do.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $12.36 (123.6 bb)
BB: $4 (40 bb)
UTG+1: $3.76 (37.6 bb)
UTG+2: $10.57 (105.7 bb)
MP1: $10 (100 bb) decent Tag reg
MP2: $4.27 (42.7 bb)
MP3: $20.64 (206.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $21.95 (219.5 bb)
BTN: $10.60 (106 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T♣ T♠
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.30, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 9♦ 3♠ 8♣ (2 players)
MP1 bets $0.47, Hero ?
(I raised and got shoved on, anyone just calling along in the dark?)

A little tricky since you have 2 of the drawing hands here. I think w/o better info fold. I think at best you're hoping for 67. That's your best hand, and the rest of his range you're not in good shape vs.

 

[John A]

Since we want him to call, I wouldn't go much bigger than a minraise. 3.20$ or so. Leaves a SPR of less than 1 too. Good to get stacks in, imo.

Yeah, I like this sizing considering stacks. You're not folding no matter what the river brings, maybe except the Qh you're not loving, but still calling.

 

[skrsh76]

comments pl
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/25-nlhe-full-ring-against-a-300939/

 

[Stanislav]

Good Job guy too much people will be interested at yourw masage i like it

 

[Figaroo2]

Why do you want to push him off his air? Don't set mine, just keep them to make bigger mistakes w/ their hands. You're allowing your opponents to play too perfectly right now.
And I assume you'll go back later and try and come up with some ranges for that other turn hand? I think it would be good to do..

MP1: $12.19 (121.9 bb) VPIP: 14, PFR: 13, 3B: 8, AF: 2.5, Hands: 402
Was the guy that 3bet our JJ EP position open.

I think this is nearly always QQ+ AK off of those stats and hand positions so we only have 36%
Obviously there will have been a fair amount of AK out there but if played aggressively its near impossible to know if you are up against AA KK QQ or AK.
In the hand above I simply didn't weight his low VPIP heavily enough.

Ok I have just filtered for JJ TT 99 relative oop and called a 3bet, for this year; it threw up 106 hands in 205,000.
I never once successfully called down anyone with an AK AQ hand.
I got stacked three times getting it in on low flops twice by KK and once by AA. Mostly I just check folded on the flop or called once then folded to a double barrel. Where I tried a check raise, I either folded out their air or got shoved on, i'm going to stop that now.
(In position I was +380bb/100)

I do remember trying to get GTO last year in this spot and ended up getting stacked about twice for every successful Ax call down and abandoned it as not valid at 10nl and below where a 3 bet often says what it means. I think that still holds true, at 10nl a certain amount of AK is calling IP rather than 3betting.

And as you rightly said don't rely on small stat samples, problem is in these big player pools I often don't have more than 100 hands or so on 6-8 of the players at the table.
Most of the regs don't mess with each other very often, you don't need too at the moment with so many fish around.
The regs seem to understand that most regs are waiting for good hands to take into battle against the fish so if a reg 3 bets you or opens from EP/MP or raises a fish they usually have a strong hand. Including on this occasion.

 

[John A]

My point is you only need 31% to call. So what is the range that gets us under that? I'm not seeing it. Tight range with one bluff. We take it down to no bluffs, you're at 31%.

Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board: 9h 3c 4s 2c

equity Win Tie Hand Range
35.303% 33.6364% 1.6667% [ JcJs ]
64.697% 63.0303% 1.6667% [ TT+(100), AKs(100), AcQc(100) ]


It's up to you if you want to jump to a radical conclusion about a range of hands for yourself. But it also might be how you're playing them that is costing you (like this hand). They aren't going to be big money makers in this spot, but they can still be profitable or near profitable. In this case, on this texture where he's inclined to bet with his air again, I'd argue it would be more profitable to c/c again, especially because there's almost no amount of you can bet/fold.

If these group of hands are causing you an issue in 3-bet pots, then let's explore it more. That's what this thread is for. I want you to feel confident about what you're doing, and not guessing at the table.

MP1: $12.19 (121.9 bb) VPIP: 14, PFR: 13, 3B: 8, AF: 2.5, Hands: 402
Was the guy that 3bet our JJ EP position open.

I think this is nearly always QQ+ AK off of those stats and hand positions so we only have 36%
Obviously there will have been a fair amount of AK out there but if played aggressively its near impossible to know if you are up against AA KK QQ or AK.
In the hand above I simply didn't weight his low VPIP heavily enough.

Ok I have just filtered for JJ TT 99 relative oop and called a 3bet, for this year; it threw up 106 hands in 205,000.
I never once successfully called down anyone with an AK AQ hand.
I got stacked three times getting it in on low flops twice by KK and once by AA. Mostly I just check folded on the flop or called once then folded to a double barrel. Where I tried a check raise, I either folded out their air or got shoved on, i'm going to stop that now.
(In position I was +380bb/100)

I do remember trying to get GTO last year in this spot and ended up getting stacked about twice for every successful Ax call down and abandoned it as not valid at 10nl and below where a 3 bet often says what it means. I think that still holds true, at 10nl a certain amount of AK is calling IP rather than 3betting.

And as you rightly said don't rely on small stat samples, problem is in these big player pools I often don't have more than 100 hands or so on 6-8 of the players at the table.
Most of the regs don't mess with each other very often, you don't need too at the moment with so many fish around.
The regs seem to understand that most regs are waiting for good hands to take into battle against the fish so if a reg 3 bets you or opens from EP/MP or raises a fish they usually have a strong hand. Including on this occasion.

 

[Figaroo2]

The comment you made about hand 2in this post is confusing me where you said "lead turn"
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...er-vol-i-study-group-227214/post-3179925.html
Why are you saying lead turn on this hand when its very similar to the JJ hand. This is partly what is confusing me.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J♠ J♣
UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, MP1 raises to $1, 6 folds, Hero calls $0.70
Flop: ($2.15) 9♥ 3♣ 4♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $1.12, Hero calls $1.12
Turn: ($4.39) 2♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $2.09,


Preflop: Hero is MP with 9

9

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, CO raises to $0.90, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.60
Flop: ($1.95) 2

4

6

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.93, Hero calls $0.93
Turn: ($3.81) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.82, Hero calls $1.82
River: ($7.45) 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $7.73 and is all-in, Hero ??
You said Lead turn.

 

[John A]

Yes, good question. Mainly because effective stacks are just enough that you can bet/fold the 99 hand (you can bet fold 1.6ish). You have less hands that might bet for value that are worse in the 99 hand. If effective stacks were a little larger in the JJ hand, I might consider betting the turn for pot control and the fact the he probably is a more passive player (based on your stats) and won't bluff enough.

And actually on second look w/ the JJ hand I didn't see how passive he was (a lot of hands were posted at once), so I'd exploit that if I was going to lead and bet a little smaller, because there just won't be enough bluffs in his range, just some semi-bluffs. What you bet left you in a bad spot as far as future decisions. If he was more aggressive, then I like a c/c much much more. I don't hate a lead here if your bet sizing is better.

Good question, you're doing good work.

 

[Figaroo2]

Ok so to clarify, if they are passive we can lead turn small to pot control and if they call presumably check the river and call according to sizing to allow them to bluff their air..
If they are aggro and wide enough we call them down, if they are aggro and tight we let it go early.

What about this hand against a semi passive?
Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $20 (100 bb)
BB: $20 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $7.35 (36.8 bb)
UTG+2: $38.09 (190.5 bb) VPIP: 20, PFR: 13, 3B: 3, AF: 1.4, Hands 100
MP1: $20.30 (101.5 bb)
MP2: $14.89 (74.5 bb)
Hero (MP3): $20.55 (102.8 bb)
CO: $10 (50 bb)
BTN: $32.92 (164.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T

T

CO posts BB OOP, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.90, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.90, 4 folds

Flop: ($2.30) 5

2

4

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $1.72, UTG+2 calls $1.72 (he was 65% cbet flop)

Turn: ($5.74) 5

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks

River: ($5.74) 7

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $4.30, Hero calls $4.30 His bet sizing makes no sense and looks like a clear attempt to buy the pot; check call, check, bet big, I'm usually looking them up.

Results:

Spoiler

$14.34 pot ($0.71 rake)
Final Board: 5

2

4

5

7

UTG+2 showed A

K

and lost (-$6.92 net)
Hero showed T

T

and won $13.63 ($6.71 net)

 

[Yura Nabok]

Interested and in, will read chapter 9 before the date set!

 

[John A]

Ok so to clarify, if they are passive we can lead turn small to pot control and if they call presumably check the river and call according to sizing to allow them to bluff their air..
If they are aggro and wide enough we call them down, if they are aggro and tight we let it go early.

What about this hand against a semi passive?
Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $20 (100 bb)
BB: $20 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $7.35 (36.8 bb)
UTG+2: $38.09 (190.5 bb) VPIP: 20, PFR: 13, 3B: 3, AF: 1.4, Hands 100
MP1: $20.30 (101.5 bb)
MP2: $14.89 (74.5 bb)
Hero (MP3): $20.55 (102.8 bb)
CO: $10 (50 bb)
BTN: $32.92 (164.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T

T

CO posts BB OOP, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.90, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.90, 4 folds

Flop: ($2.30) 5

2

4

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $1.72, UTG+2 calls $1.72 (he was 65% cbet flop)

Turn: ($5.74) 5

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks

River: ($5.74) 7

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $4.30, Hero calls $4.30 His bet sizing makes no sense and looks like a clear attempt to buy the pot; check call, check, bet big, I'm usually looking them up.

Results:

Spoiler

$14.34 pot ($0.71 rake)
Final Board: 5

2

4

5

7

UTG+2 showed A

K

and lost (-$6.92 net)
Hero showed T

T

and won $13.63 ($6.71 net)

Yes... pretty much, but stack sizes also factor in and whether the pot is single raised or 3-bet.

As far as this hand, against someone passive who has checked twice, bet the turn. It's unlikely they will bluff the river often enough to check to induce a bluff. Not saying it will never happen, but the best long term EV here is to protect our equity and get value from some of his second best range. We check or call down vs. our opponents who are aggressive enough to make bad bluffs.

 

[rhombus]

No stats, as 1st hand with villain
Think call on Flop is ok after being raised as alot of semi bluffs in their range.

Should I fold to turn bet or get it in and hope for AQ/KK TJ/JQ


Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $12.03 (120.3 bb)
BB: $16.94 (169.4 bb)
Hero (UTG): $10 (100 bb)
MP: $8.67 (86.7 bb)
CO: $13.48 (134.8 bb)
BTN: $8.57 (85.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

A

Hero raises to $0.30, MP calls $0.30, 3 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) 9

2

T

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.61, MP calls $0.61, BB raises to $2.30, Hero calls $1.69, MP folds

Turn: ($6.16) Q

(2 players)
BB bets $3.64, Hero ???

 

[John A]

No stats, as 1st hand with villain
Think call on Flop is ok after being raised as alot of semi bluffs in their range.

Should I fold to turn bet or get it in and hope for AQ/KK TJ/JQ


Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $12.03 (120.3 bb)
BB: $16.94 (169.4 bb)
Hero (UTG): $10 (100 bb)
MP: $8.67 (86.7 bb)
CO: $13.48 (134.8 bb)
BTN: $8.57 (85.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

A

Hero raises to $0.30, MP calls $0.30, 3 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) 9

2

T

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.61, MP calls $0.61, BB raises to $2.30, Hero calls $1.69, MP folds

Turn: ($6.16) Q

(2 players)
BB bets $3.64, Hero ???

As a general rule of thumb, the more draw heavy a board is, and someone CR's MW, then they generally have > TP. Not super draw heavy here, but the highest straight draw potential and you bet into 2 people, get a call and a CR. In a wind tunnel that's usually 2 pair+. With any kind of info, I don't mind calling the CR and folding to a turn bet. W/o info it's really difficult to put over half your stack in and then fold to that river sizing. So like you said, you need to shove or fold the turn here. Probably at these stakes I'd lean towards a fold. It's all about hand weighting here where at these stakes and this flop action it has to be heavily towards a big hand. I think you'd look at something like this. So it's close...

Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board: Tc 9h 2s Qc

Equity Win Tie Hand Range
29.9465% 29.9465% 0% [ AdAc ]
70.0535% 70.0535% 0% [ 22(100), 99-TT(100), T9s(100), T9o(100), QJs(100),JJ(75) ]

 

[John A]

I'll be on tomorrow for group sweat. So anyone who can make it let me know. Hopefully we can go over some strategy and maybe even database stuff.