Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[rhombus]

OK, misread the sizing, then. But were you in position or OOP? The preflop call said OOP and postflop seems to confirm this???

Entirely opponent-dependant. Against some only the nuts, against some A-high.

I was OOP, just wondering what to call with OOP and IP. Sorry about confusion with bet sizes

 

[John A]

as played Do i check fold River

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.70 (42.8 bb)
BB: $31.10 (124.4 bb)
Hero (UTG): $40.28 (161.1 bb)
MP: $17 (68 bb)30/20 AG67% 10 hands
CO: $30.19 (120.8 bb)
BTN: $70.92 (283.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7

7

Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.85) K

K

3

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, MP calls $1

Turn: ($4.35) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP calls $2

River: ($8.35) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $13 and is all-in, Hero ???

In a wa/wb spot like this, I'd prefer just betting the flop, or since he looks like he might be aggressive, c/c and then lead turn (set my price). As played... ya, snap fold on the river.

 

[Figaroo2]

If raise how much?
He opened UTG I flatted. I just flatted the flop cbet. Now he barrels again on the turn.
No 3 barrels fired in his stats and wtsd 33%
Spades, 8s Ts arriving are going to slow the action.

RESULT: I bet $8 and he folded

 

[John A]

Folks I've got a hypothetical question. Maybe you guys can help me with this one:

I've got a question about how to play back door draws on the turn when we improve.

Example. Everyone folds to us in CO w 98h, we open 3bb, button calls and blinds fold.

Flop comes Ks 7c 2h. We check, button bets 4bb we call.

Turn comes 4h.... Okay so our range has improved and villain's value range hasn't really improved unless they're calling pre with 44, 45s, 75s but they could also have called pre with mid pairs, A7s+, K9s+. I'm trying to give villain a pretty wide calling range.

Against this range, since we do improve, would we be correct to check/call again up to 2/3 pot or should we check raise?

Now let's change our cards to AQh. Everything else being the same, would this be a better spot to check call since we have a nut flush draw, and an over card?

And then the same 2 examples but change the turn card to 10h.

Why are you checking call on that flop again though?

 

[6bet me]

Suppose you're playing a 6-max cash game at the 10NL level. You're in the SB. What is your typical calling and 3betting range when facing a 3x raise from an unknown villain when:
1) The villain is UTG?
2) The villain is in MP?

This is something I've really struggled with. I've been told never to flat-call out of position. So if that's the case, what do I do with hands like A2s, AJs, 44, TT, 75s, T9s, KQo, ATo? Should I be 3betting these kind of hands, or folding them? Or is it okay to flat-call out of position?

 

[Figaroo2]

Suppose you're playing a 6-max cash game at the 10NL level. You're in the SB. What is your typical calling and 3betting range when facing a 3x raise from an unknown villain when:
1) The villain is UTG?
2) The villain is in MP?

This is something I've really struggled with. I've been told never to flat-call out of position. So if that's the case, what do I do with hands like A2s, AJs, 44, TT, 75s, T9s, KQo, ATo? Should I be 3betting these kind of hands, or folding them? Or is it okay to flat-call out of position?

Against an unknown vil with 100bb EP/MP I set mine (flat call) all pairs in the blinds up to TT. I might flat AJs / ATs if deeper.
JJ+ AQs AK 3betting for value. May want to throw in the odd 3bet with suited aces to see what they do early doors.
I'm mostly set mining because you are against a strong range that is more likely to pay at least two streets

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Why are you checking call on that flop again though?

Check call to protect from raises. We could lead as well. It's hypothetical so let's say we've been pushing the table around a bit and people are starting to play back so the potential for a raise is higher.

 

[John A]

Suppose you're playing a 6-max cash game at the 10NL level. You're in the SB. What is your typical calling and 3betting range when facing a 3x raise from an unknown villain when:
1) The villain is UTG?
2) The villain is in MP?

This is something I've really struggled with. I've been told never to flat-call out of position. So if that's the case, what do I do with hands like A2s, AJs, 44, TT, 75s, T9s, KQo, ATo? Should I be 3betting these kind of hands, or folding them? Or is it okay to flat-call out of position?

Have you read the section on blind defense in polished poker? Because I think it lays out a pretty straight forward and profitable plan. There's no absolutes, but there's a good outline of things you should be considering, and typical ranges depending on your opponent.

I'd suggest going back over it, and you can ask some questions if you're stuck or unsure about something in there. It's a good question... and you definitely want to be confident in what you're doing on these common spots.

 

[John A]

Check call to protect from raises. We could lead as well. It's hypothetical so let's say we've been pushing the table around a bit and people are starting to play back so the potential for a raise is higher.

I understand that, but it's hard to give good advice in a hypothetical that doesn't make much sense. You're saying to basically float OOP with no hand, no plan, no draw. Why do we want to hypothesize about that spot is what I'm getting at?

Example. Everyone folds to us in CO w 98h, we open 3bb, button calls and blinds fold.

Flop comes Ks 7c 2h. We check, button bets 4bb we call.

Turn comes 4h.... Okay so our range has improved and villain's value range hasn't really improved unless they're calling pre with 44, 45s, 75s but they could also have called pre with mid pairs, A7s+, K9s+. I'm trying to give villain a pretty wide calling range.

I mean because if you bet that flop, and then turned more equity, that completely changes the advice / plan. But here, you were passive w/o a plan, turned equity and have no initiative. I just want to get clear in what our goal is, and what we're trying to address. All of these details matter.

 

[John A]

Here's a hypothetical for you. I have odds to continue and call this bet on the flop, why should I or shouldn't I? The assigned range isn't exact, but lets say I likely have around 37% equity.

NL Holdem $1(BB)
HERO ($106.45)
SB ($146.35)
BB ($100)
UTG ($279.6)
HJ ($257.94)
CO ($100)

Dealt to Hero Q:club: T:diamond:

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, HERO Raises To $(3), SB Calls $(2.5), BB Calls $(2)

Flop ($7.5) J:spade: T:heart: 7:spade:
SB Checks, BB Checks, HERO Bets $5, SB Raises To $15, BB Folds, HERO


Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board: Js Th 7s


Equity Win Tie Hand Range

40.3075% 39.7896% 0.518% [ QcTd ]

59.6925% 59.1745% 0.518% [ 77(100), TT+(100), A2s-A6s(100), A8s+(100), K9s+(100), QTs+(100), J8s+(100), T8s+(100), 98s(100), 86s(100), 64s+(100), 54s(100), AJo(100), K9o(100), KJo+(100), QJo(100), J9o+(100), 98o(100) ]

 

[TimovieMan]

I'll give it a stab.

I think we should fold.

The fact that he check-raised us instead of leading out, reduces the possibility of him having a draw somewhat.
That's a very wet board where we only have the backdoor straight draw that's weakened by the spade flush draw.
If behind a non-monster, there's no guarantee our Q-outs are good. One of them completes the flush draw and the Q generally completes a bunch of straight draws. Same goes for the T: only two of them out there, and one of them completes the flush draw as well.

If ahead (which I doubt considering his flop line), there's far too many cards (basically everything 7+) that we won't like to see.
If behind, I'm not liking most of our outs.
Feels like a reverse implied odds situation, so I'd prefer to get out.


As an aside: did you reduce the Axs hands (as well as a few other suited draws) in his range to only the spade variety? As that might further impact our equity, and he's not really raising here with A-high, no draw.

 

[Figaroo2]

Yeah I agree with folding and all of Tim's reasons.
The check raise into two people on that board is a very strong move with the BB behind him to act.
Not only that he wasn't bothered about giving a free card. If he had a made vulnerable hand it would make sense to lead out and charge the draws. If I had a set here I'd lead out expecting calls on a wet board like this.
8s9s or QsKs look the most likely and are definitely in a sb preflop flatting range.
If we continue we need runner runner to make the nuts meaning no matter what comes on the turn we are facing calling another barrel.

 

[6bet me]

Here's a hypothetical for you. I have odds to continue and call this bet on the flop, why should I or shouldn't I? The assigned range isn't exact, but lets say I likely have around 37% equity.

NL Holdem $1(BB)
HERO ($106.45)
SB ($146.35)
BB ($100)
UTG ($279.6)
HJ ($257.94)
CO ($100)

Dealt to Hero Q<font color='black'>♣</font> T<font color='red'>♦</font>

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, HERO Raises To $(3), SB Calls $(2.5), BB Calls $(2)

Flop ($7.5) J<font color='black'>♠</font> T<font color='red'>♥</font> 7<font color='black'>♠</font>
SB Checks, BB Checks, HERO Bets $5, SB Raises To $15, BB Folds, HERO


Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board: Js Th 7s


Equity Win Tie Hand Range

40.3075% 39.7896% 0.518% [ QcTd ]

59.6925% 59.1745% 0.518% [ 77(100), TT+(100), A2s-A6s(100), A8s+(100), K9s+(100), QTs+(100), J8s+(100), T8s+(100), 98s(100), 86s(100), 64s+(100), 54s(100), AJo(100), K9o(100), KJo+(100), QJo(100), J9o+(100), 98o(100) ]

I don't like to just consider the equity and pot odds on the flop. I like to think ahead about how much money I expect to go in on later streets. That's the true pot odds you're getting. It's not as if you can just call $10 and then check it down after that, so any pot odds you get on the flop are kind of irrelevant.

Whatever the villain has, I expect him to barrel the turn and river the majority of the time, and I'm not too confident calling down 3 streets with middle pair in the hopes that he shows down a busted draw, so I'd rather just fold the flop and get out cheaply.

 

[rhombus]

In a wa/wb spot like this, I'd prefer just betting the flop, or since he looks like he might be aggressive, c/c and then lead turn (set my price). As played... ya, snap fold on the river.

Actually typed response, couple of days ago but been having problems with the thread.
Does this apply to all/most WA/WB. Check Call, Lead turn or is it dependant on player.

You mention as he is aggressive to check/Clall and lead turn. Im assuming because he is aggressive he's more likely to bluff raise flop whereas a passive player wont.
Therefore : -
vs Aggro Check/Call, Lead Turn
vs Passive Bet/FOld, Check/Fold Turn

 

[rhombus]

I don't like to just consider the equity and pot odds on the flop. I like to think ahead about how much money I expect to go in on later streets. That's the true pot odds you're getting. It's not as if you can just call $10 and then check it down after that, so any pot odds you get on the flop are kind of irrelevant.

Whatever the villain has, I expect him to barrel the turn and river the majority of the time, and I'm not too confident calling down 3 streets with middle pair in the hopes that he shows down a busted draw, so I'd rather just fold the flop and get out cheaply.

At first I though maybe this was the point John was trying to get across in a similar situation when in the Blinds getting 2/1, 2.5/1 etc. If it was Limit Holdem then Ok but as its NLHE and you are OOP then alot easier to fold.

With this situation we are actually in position so is it viallain dependant, i.e.

Passive then Fold, Aggro Call and reevaluate on Turn.

PS I prefer the hypothetical type hands as it give you a better idea how to play alot of different hands in differrent situations.

Going back to Matts question

1) The villain is UTG?
2) The villain is in MP?

How would each of the hands affect the Play, i.e.

* Small Pairs 22-66, Middle Pairs 77-TT, High pairs JJ-KK
* Suited Connectors - Medium 67s, 78, High QJs, KQs
* Aces A2-A8, A9-AQ and AK
* Suited Wheel A2-A5s

 

[Figaroo2]

Raise the flop more they say

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $49.57 (198.3 bb)
BB: $10.20 (40.8 bb)
MP1: $26.20 (104.8 bb)
MP2: $24.30 (97.2 bb)
MP3: $25 (100 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb) VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 1.6, Hands: 266
Hero (BTN): $25.13 (100.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

J

3 folds, CO raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.85) T

A

K

(2 players)
CO bets $1.25, Hero raises to $3.38, CO raises to $24.25 and is all-in,
Hero?

 

[John A]

I don't like to just consider the equity and pot odds on the flop. I like to think ahead about how much money I expect to go in on later streets. That's the true pot odds you're getting. It's not as if you can just call $10 and then check it down after that, so any pot odds you get on the flop are kind of irrelevant.

Whatever the villain has, I expect him to barrel the turn and river the majority of the time, and I'm not too confident calling down 3 streets with middle pair in the hopes that he shows down a busted draw, so I'd rather just fold the flop and get out cheaply.

Good job guys. I guess it was simpler than I expected. A lot of people talk about odds, and what a profitable call is, so I wanted to make sure that wasn't applying to multiple street solutions when you're going to have a lot of bad turns and rivers.

I think you guys got this down...

 

[Figaroo2]

making it look like a busted draw

But what do we think of leading out here against the likely strong holding of the nit?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $25.13 (100.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $26.66 (106.6 bb)
UTG: $25.25 (101 bb)
MP: $25 (100 bb)VPIP: 11, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 1.0, Hands: 89 just 3% from EP
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $24.31 (97.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

Q

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.75, 2 folds, SB calls $0.65, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.25) K

Q

6

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.07, MP calls $1.07, SB folds

Turn: ($4.39) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.09, MP calls $2.09

River: ($8.57) 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $2.50, Hero pauses for 5 secs then raises to $22.75 and is all-in, MP calls $18.59 and is all-in

Results: $50.75 pot ($2 rake)
Final Board: K

Q

6

2

8

Hero showed Q

Q

and won $48.75 ($23.75 net)
MP mucked K

J

and lost (-$25 net)

 

[or3o1990]

Raise the flop more they say

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $49.57 (198.3 bb)
BB: $10.20 (40.8 bb)
MP1: $26.20 (104.8 bb)
MP2: $24.30 (97.2 bb)
MP3: $25 (100 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb) VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 1.6, Hands: 266
Hero (BTN): $25.13 (100.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

J

3 folds, CO raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.85) T

A

K

(2 players)
CO bets $1.25, Hero raises to $3.38, CO raises to $24.25 and is all-in,
Hero?

Not a huge fan of the raise. This is WA/WB and we've got a billion outs if he's got AK, AQ or A 10, QJ, or K 10. The only better hand you've got a chance at folding out is AQ. I'd just call flop and turn and decide if I'm getting it in on the river.

As played we've got 13 almost always clean outs and we have to call 21.13 to win like 55.00 total and we're pretty much flipping. So even though we're almost never ahead we've got to flip for that dead money.

 

[Nicebrew]

Pick me Pick me Pick me!!!

Hi John!

What you're doing here is something I've never seen before and I feel that it really suits my style of learning!

I am literally the Oliver Twist of the poker community in the respect of having such little knowledge and desperately hungry for more.

Please turn me into a winning player!

 

[John A]

But what do we think of leading out here against the likely strong holding of the nit?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $25.13 (100.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $26.66 (106.6 bb)
UTG: $25.25 (101 bb)
MP: $25 (100 bb)VPIP: 11, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 1.0, Hands: 89 just 3% from EP
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $24.31 (97.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

Q

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.75, 2 folds, SB calls $0.65, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.25) K

Q

6

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.07, MP calls $1.07, SB folds

Turn: ($4.39) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.09, MP calls $2.09

River: ($8.57) 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $2.50, Hero pauses for 5 secs then raises to $22.75 and is all-in, MP calls $18.59 and is all-in

Results: $50.75 pot ($2 rake)
Final Board: K

Q

6

2

8

Hero showed Q

Q

and won $48.75 ($23.75 net)
MP mucked K

J

and lost (-$25 net)

That's fine, but just bet more on the flop and turn. I like the river CR (usually not a huge fan of river CR's in general). But here you know he's VB Kx+ and he'll just fold if you bet and he has a draw. He probably also won't call with mid pairs if you bet. So nh... I like the lead, but I'd still just be betting more.

 

[Figaroo2]

Sick river spot

Dynamics;;;;We have just stacked the fish now in MP and he's steaming.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $13.80 (138 bb)
Hero (BB): $22.25 (222.5 bb)
MP: $10 (100 bb) VPIP: 51, PFR: 38, 3B: 22, AF: 2.0, Hands: 37
CO: $16 (160 bb) VPIP: 17, PFR: 13, 3B: 7, AF: 2.0, Hands: 120
BTN: $3.74 (37.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4

4

MP raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) 4

Q

2

(3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.57, CO calls $0.57, Hero calls $0.57

Turn: ($2.66) 7

(3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $1.39, Hero raises to $2.78, MP folds, CO calls $1.39

River: ($8.22) T

(2 players)
Hero bets $4.51, CO raises to $12.35 and is all-in,
Hero?

Villian has a WTSD of 58% which is really at odds with his half decent stats. This really threw me here, it makes me think he will be doing this sort of thing on the river a lot. But my river sizing was just over half pot so I can't see this being a bluff, its whether or not i beat bottom set or top 2 pair. Maybe a check call on the end but still facing a decision if he bets big.

Regretting my turn sizing here, I made it wanting to give the fish a chance to shove his draws with a bit of FE.

Spoiler

Hero folds

 

[John A]

Mmmm... I'd just CR the flop. You know the donkey is going to bet, or I'd just lead the flop. And he'll probably continue light. On the turn, you don't have enough reason the think CO will bet or the donkey will continue MP so I'd just lead. Now that you check, yeah you need to raise way more.

As played, river is pretty close. It doesn't make much sense. Outside of him having QhXx or Ah5h, I can't see much else that's beating you. If he spiked a set of 7's I doubt he's raising the river. Your line looks strong on the turn, so you'd expect him to know you have a big hand at the point. It's probably best to fold at these stakes, even if is hand range is pretty narrow.

WTSD is useless in that sample. You bring up a lot of stats that take a long time to normalize in small samples. You need to really be careful there. I would literally not even consider that info in my decision making process at that point.

 

[Figaroo2]

Yeah I didn't play it how I'd normally play it because I was trying to open the door for MP to do something stupid but I guess the CO being in the hand kept MP in check.
I'll bear that in mind next time and just bet my hand properly flop and turn.

 

[John A]

Yeah I didn't play it how I'd normally play it because I was trying to open the door for MP to do something stupid but I guess the CO being in the hand kept MP in check.
I'll bear that in mind next time and just bet my hand properly flop and turn.

Yeah, CO being in there makes a big difference. It's ok... it worked out this time. nh