Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[rhombus]

In general with the hands Tim posted is it just a case of, if you 3Bet OOP and get called: -
Flop 2/3
Turn 1/2 if you pick up more equity or a card that hits your range (Doesn't it hit theirs as well). Check Call if you dont.
River Check Fold, unless its an Ace or King and you had had AK then Check Call

 

[John A]

In general with the hands Tim posted is it just a case of, if you 3Bet OOP and get called: -
Flop 2/3
Turn 1/2 if you pick up more equity or a card that hits your range (Doesn't it hit theirs as well). Check Call if you dont.
River Check Fold, unless its an Ace or King and you had had AK then Check Call

Flop... 1/2 - 2/3rd. But yes... that's essentially what he wants to do in most of those hands. I think it's also whether you should even be 3-betting, like this hand:

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 110.5 BB
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 10.94, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 65)
CO: 284.5 BB (VPIP: 25.70, PFR: 20.29, 3Bet Preflop: 3.97, Hands: 1,122)
BTN: 104.5 BB (VPIP: 21.81, PFR: 19.16, 3Bet Preflop: 4.60, Hands: 664)
SB: 197 BB (VPIP: 22.54, PFR: 17.37, 3Bet Preflop: 5.50, Hands: 635)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T♠ A♠

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 12 BB, UTG calls 9 BB

Flop: (24.5 BB, 2 players) 5♥ 8♦ J♦
Hero bets 16 BB, fold

Hero wins 23.5 BB

 

[Figaroo2]

3 betting a nit with stats like this UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 10.94, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 65)
with AT is asking for a beating imo....domination most likely

 

[TimovieMan]

In my defense: he was in the Hijack, not really UTG, and his fold to 3-bet was 70+% (small sample size though).

 

[rhombus]

Just ran a Filter of where I 3Bet Suited Aces A2-A5 in SB or BB and saw Flop and sorted them by the Line.

Whats the best line on the Flop or is it board dependant

 

[John A]

In my defense: he was in the Hijack, not really UTG, and his fold to 3-bet was 70+% (small sample size though).

There's no defense Tim! None.... hehe... messing w/ you. Yeah, that does make it a little better, but I wouldn't care much about the 70% yet. I'd still learn towards a flat pre-flop since you're in the BB. It's not a high EV play but probably slightly higher than folding.

 

[Figaroo2]

River sizing?

Whale calling station in the SB, hence the limp.

What are you doing here on the river?

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $20.81 (83.2 bb) WHALE
BB: $25 (100 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $25 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $27.75 (111 bb)
MP1: $58.34 (233.4 bb)
MP2: $25.85 (103.4 bb)
MP3: $25 (100 bb) VPIP: 20, PFR: 13, 3B: 0, AF: 1.5, Hands: 30
CO: $37.96 (151.8 bb)
BTN: $27.72 (110.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 3

3

Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, MP3 raises to $1, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.35) Q

3

T

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $1.48, Hero raises to $4.75, MP3 calls $3.27

Turn: ($11.85) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $5.66, MP3 calls $5.66

River: ($23.17) 7

(2 players)
HERO?

Spoiler

Hero bets $13.59 and is all-in, MP3 folds
Results: $23.17 pot ($1.04 rake)
Final Board: Q

3

T

4

7

Hero mucked 3

3

and won $22.13 ($10.72 net)
MP3 mucked and lost (-$11.41 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

Call or raise?

If raise how much?
He opened UTG I flatted. I just flatted the flop cbet. Now he barrels again on the turn.
No 3 barrels fired in his stats and wtsd 33%
Spades, 8s Ts arriving are going to slow the action.

 

[TimovieMan]

I'd go with the "standard" x3, 9$. That leaves a good-sized bet for a safe river.

 

[John A]

Whale calling station in the SB, hence the limp.

What are you doing here on the river?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $20.81 (83.2 bb) WHALE
BB: $25 (100 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $25 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $27.75 (111 bb)
MP1: $58.34 (233.4 bb)
MP2: $25.85 (103.4 bb)
MP3: $25 (100 bb) VPIP: 20, PFR: 13, 3B: 0, AF: 1.5, Hands: 30
CO: $37.96 (151.8 bb)
BTN: $27.72 (110.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 3

3

Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, MP3 raises to $1, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.35) Q

3

T

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $1.48, Hero raises to $4.75, MP3 calls $3.27

Turn: ($11.85) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $5.66, MP3 calls $5.66

River: ($23.17) 7

(2 players)
HERO?

Spoiler

Hero bets $13.59 and is all-in, MP3 folds
Results: $23.17 pot ($1.04 rake)
Final Board: Q

3

T

4

7

Hero mucked 3

3

and won $22.13 ($10.72 net)
MP3 mucked and lost (-$11.41 net)

Raise a little more on the flop. Bet 9$ on the river since you want Qx and overpairs to call. If you shove, against someone like this, I think long term you get more folds from Qx and over pairs. The only range you lose some value from is QT. But everything else in there has you crushed. If the heart doesn't fall, I think you get the sizing so you can jam the river and make it an easy call.

 

[John A]

If raise how much?
He opened UTG I flatted. I just flatted the flop cbet. Now he barrels again on the turn.
No 3 barrels fired in his stats and wtsd 33%
Spades, 8s Ts arriving are going to slow the action.

With your stats, is 8T going to be in your range much?

Yeah, that's tough because raising the turn here is going to set off alarm bells. There's just two lines. You either go for the higher risk, higher reward line of calling, and risk a lot of bad rivers. But when the river does brick, you can shove and get called much lighter. Or you make a small raise (barely over minimum and price him, hope he jams draws). I'd lean towards small raise... $7.50 and look to jam most rivers if he calls.

 

[rhombus]

as played Do i check fold River

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.70 (42.8 bb)
BB: $31.10 (124.4 bb)
Hero (UTG): $40.28 (161.1 bb)
MP: $17 (68 bb)30/20 AG67% 10 hands
CO: $30.19 (120.8 bb)
BTN: $70.92 (283.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7

7

Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.85) K

K

3

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, MP calls $1

Turn: ($4.35) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP calls $2

River: ($8.35) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $13 and is all-in, Hero ???

 

[Fish2014]

Thank you thank you very much interesting information

 

[Fish2014]

as played Do i check fold River

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.70 (42.8 bb)
BB: $31.10 (124.4 bb)
Hero (UTG): $40.28 (161.1 bb)
MP: $17 (68 bb)30/20 AG67% 10 hands
CO: $30.19 (120.8 bb)
BTN: $70.92 (283.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7

7

Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.85) K

K

3

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, MP calls $1

Turn: ($4.35) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP calls $2

River: ($8.35) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $13 and is all-in, Hero ???

Hero Fold

 

[skrsh76]

as played Do i check fold River

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.70 (42.8 bb)
BB: $31.10 (124.4 bb)
Hero (UTG): $40.28 (161.1 bb)
MP: $17 (68 bb)30/20 AG67% 10 hands
CO: $30.19 (120.8 bb)
BTN: $70.92 (283.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7

7

Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.85) K

K

3

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, MP calls $1

Turn: ($4.35) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP calls $2

River: ($8.35) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $13 and is all-in, Hero ???

If we dont cbet, Why don't we check call all the way to a cheap showdown if we don't improve

 

[Figaroo2]

as played Do i check fold River

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6

SB: $10.70 (42.8 bb)
BB: $31.10 (124.4 bb)
Hero (UTG): $40.28 (161.1 bb)
MP: $17 (68 bb)30/20 AG67% 10 hands
CO: $30.19 (120.8 bb)
BTN: $70.92 (283.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7

7

Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.85) K

K

3

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, MP calls $1

Turn: ($4.35) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP calls $2

River: ($8.35) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $13 and is all-in, Hero ???

If he's sitting with 68 bb and bets 1bb when you check then you know he's a fish. In that case I'm folding here and waiting for a better spot. We still don't know what sort of bad player he is but you can be sure that there will be better spots when we know more about his bluffing and value bet tendencies. I fold here but I do expect him to be bluffing a fair amount.
I don't like the flop check raise bet sizing, I'd make it at least pot size or not at all so I get some sort of decent info on his hand strength

 

[Sneaky Feet]

I'm raising more on the flop then shutting down on the turn if they call unless we improve. Flop raise would probably be 12bb

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Folks I've got a hypothetical question. Maybe you guys can help me with this one:

I've got a question about how to play back door draws on the turn when we improve.

Example. Everyone folds to us in CO w 98h, we open 3bb, button calls and blinds fold.

Flop comes Ks 7c 2h. We check, button bets 4bb we call.

Turn comes 4h.... Okay so our range has improved and villain's value range hasn't really improved unless they're calling pre with 44, 45s, 75s but they could also have called pre with mid pairs, A7s+, K9s+. I'm trying to give villain a pretty wide calling range.

Against this range, since we do improve, would we be correct to check/call again up to 2/3 pot or should we check raise?

Now let's change our cards to AQh. Everything else being the same, would this be a better spot to check call since we have a nut flush draw, and an over card?

And then the same 2 examples but change the turn card to 10h.

 

[rhombus]

Was in CO and HJ 3Bet Is it an OK call at 100BBs or less. AS it was 160BBs thought it was ok.

At any point do I Checkraise or Bet/FOLD

 

[Figaroo2]

Folks I've got a hypothetical question. Maybe you guys can help me with this one:
I've got a question about how to play back door draws on the turn when we improve.
Example. Everyone folds to us in CO w 98h, we open 3bb, button calls and blinds fold.
Flop comes Ks 7c 2h. We check, button bets 4bb we call.
Turn comes 4h.... Okay so our range has improved and villain's value range hasn't really improved unless they're calling pre with 44, 45s, 75s but they could also have called pre with mid pairs, A7s+, K9s+. I'm trying to give villain a pretty wide calling range.
Against this range, since we do improve, would we be correct to check/call again up to 2/3 pot or should we check raise?
Now let's change our cards to AQh. Everything else being the same, would this be a better spot to check call since we have a nut flush draw, and an over card?
And then the same 2 examples but change the turn card to 10h.

On the turn here I simply lead out for 2/3, it takes back the initiative and means I set the price and charges his draws. If he raises on that board easy fold if you're not getting the right odds. If he calls and you still have the option to fire as a bluff or for value if you get there.
I find bluffing on the end having lead the turn gets much more folds as you have repped a hand on the turn. This bluff works much better than calling on the turn and then leading on the river when the draws miss.
If I have AQ I'm c betting the flop and turn. If you check raise with a draw on the turn and he shoves with a set you can price yourself out of the hand.
I'm interested to hear what others do here.

 

[TimovieMan]

@ Sneaky Feet:
I c-bet the flop with both 98h and AQh, simply because that flop's so dry that nothing that missed it can really continue.
If I improve, I continue betting.

In your example, when I improve on the turn, I bet out vs (relative) unknowns to about 60% (to set the price that I want to pay, and to take initiative with some fold equity). Vs most regulars I tend to check-raise instead, to balance the times I check-raise the turn with a monster.


@ Rhombus:
Fold preflop to the 3-bet.
Repeat after John A and after Figaroo2: cold calling OOP with trouble hands is burning money.

 

[rhombus]

@ Rhombus:
Fold preflop to the 3-bet.
Repeat after John A and after Figaroo2: cold calling OOP with trouble hands is burning money.

so even 150 deep you fold. What hands do you call with here and what do you 4bet.

Assuming 4Bet all value and occasional A2-A5s cold Call Pairs as we are deep and sometimes Call AK AQ and sometimes raise

 

[TimovieMan]

OK, fine, you're deep, so preflop is a little closer.
Then why are you stacking off 160BB with top pair meh kicker?

 

[rhombus]

OK, fine, you're deep, so preflop is a little closer.
Then why are you stacking off 160BB with top pair meh kicker?

wasnt intending to stack off. Think the Bets were confusing when it was 25 into 39 it was 25c and not 25bbs and on river was 84c into 2.03 so ended up losing 1/2 my stack as he had AQ. so QTs in position is ok

So whats the minimum you call 100BB effective OOP

 

[TimovieMan]

wasnt intending to stack off. Think the Bets were confusing when it was 25 into 39 it was 25c and not 25bbs and on river was 84c into 2.03 so ended up losing 1/2 my stack as he had AQ. so QTs in position is ok

OK, misread the sizing, then. But were you in position or OOP? The preflop call said OOP and postflop seems to confirm this???

So whats the minimum you call 100BB effective OOP

Entirely opponent-dependant. Against some only the nuts, against some A-high.