Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Figaroo2]

Do this test http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/videos.html#tryit
and then listen to the latest Jared Tendler Podcast
http://jaredtendlerpoker.com/blog/chris-chabris/

This might explain why its taking so long to implement more aggression into my game.

Rhom
I really struggle at zoom because of my lack of post flop aggression and the lack of reads. I really think you'd be better playing regular tables and looking for players like this guy who I OWNED here. This is a great example of why table selecting and finding these players is key to a good winrate.
My HM2 won't copy to the clipboard from the viewer so i had to copy with stats

(poker stars) $10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, January 28, 03:56:42 ET 2016
Table Clementina III (real money)
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $10.00 USD )
Seat 2: Player2 ( $5.58 USD ) - VPIP: 83, PFR: 17, 3B: 10, AF: 2.8, Hands: 35
Seat 3: Hero ( $13.17 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 17, 3B: 1, AF: 1.6, Hands: 214
Seat 4: Player4 ( $12.40 USD )
Seat 5: Player5 ( $16.11 USD )
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Th Ts ]
Player2 calls [$0.10 USD]
Hero raises [$0.40 USD]
Player2 calls [$0.30 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, Jd, 9d ]
Player2 checks
Hero bets [$0.45 USD]
Player2 raises [$5.18 USD] 50bb overshove all in
Hero calls [$4.73 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]
Player2 shows [5h, 4d ]
Hero shows [Th, Ts ]
Hero wins $10.80 USD from main pot


(Poker Stars) $10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, January 28, 04:07:22 ET 2016
Table Clementina III (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $10.64 USD )
Seat 2: Player2 ( $8.05 USD ) - VPIP: 83, PFR: 17, 3B: 10, AF: 2.8, Hands: 35
Seat 3: Hero ( $18.27 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 17, 3B: 1, AF: 1.6, Hands: 214
Seat 4: Player4 ( $10.15 USD )
Seat 5: Player5 ( $23.24 USD )

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 9d 9s ]
Hero raises [$0.30 USD]
Player4 calls [$0.30 USD]
Player5 folds
Player1 folds
Player2 calls [$0.20 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, 5d, 9c ] the perfect flop
Player2 bets [$2.00 USD] another big overbet,
Hero calls [$2.00 USD]
Player4 folds
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5s ]
Player2 bets [$4.70 USD]
Hero calls [$4.70 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 6s ]
Player2 bets [$1.05 USD] all in
Hero calls [$1.05 USD]
Player2 shows [Kd, 5h ]
Hero shows [9d, 9s ]
Hero wins $15.71 USD from main pot

 

[John A]

I still cant see suits on alot of the posts.


I just right click the hand then click on view and select Cardschat Format

Can you try exporting in 2+2 format and see how that works?

 

[John A]

Do this test http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/videos.html#tryit
and then listen to the latest Jared Tendler Podcast
http://jaredtendlerpoker.com/blog/chris-chabris/

This might explain why its taking so long to implement more aggression into my game.

Rhom
I really struggle at zoom because of my lack of post flop aggression and the lack of reads. I really think you'd be better playing regular tables and looking for players like this guy who I OWNED here. This is a great example of why table selecting and finding these players is key to a good winrate.
My HM2 won't copy to the clipboard from the viewer so i had to copy with stats

Well, I think the big thing in hands like this is pay attention to the player type and bet sizing. It's common on a board like that if someone is over betting at smaller stakes, and is bad that they have some kind of weak hand. The only problem is it's hard to bluff them off those hands if they are really really bad. But it's still good for example if you had a mediocre hand that you know you're still likely ahead.

I didn't listen to the podcast, but I'm very aware that people who struggle w/ aggression have certain temperaments. And it's hard to just change that to fit into a game properly. 90% of students that came to me when I coached struggled w/ not enough aggression. It's easier to tone someone down, than it is to ratcheted it up. The only thing I could do is try and just turn it into a math formula for them and get them to look at it in terms of why it will be the best play long term, even if you lose this hand. It takes a lot of repetitive practice, and trying to rid them of selective memory.

 

[John A]

Think Ive forgot how to play for the last few days, 1/2 the time havent got a clue what to do. Didn't think it was possible to have all your lines below zero lol

Ya, that WTSD is on the high side there. And when you're going that often and not winning =

A lot of your other numbers are looking better though.

 

[rhombus]

Can you try exporting in 2+2 format and see how that works?

OK Ill try 3 hands I spewed earlier lol
Looks like its playing up as when I select a format (tried 2+2) nothing happens then get popup below

 

[rhombus]

Ya, that WTSD is on the high side there. And when you're going that often and not winning =

A lot of your other numbers are looking better though.

My aggression has increased alot especially C/R flops which seem to do ok. But other aspects of aggression When double barreling etc I seem to be running into hands all the time.

Its ok against passives as easier to fold, but I just cant fold against aggros and they seem to have it all the time. Maybe not enough hands on 1st 2 hands against aggros. Maybe I just got to that stage where I aint gonna take shit from an aggro lol especially when flush draws on the board

Hand 3 maybe fold Pre with another player to act but once on flop difficult to Fold

Hand1 Villain 67/67 50Ag% 50% 3Bet 6Hands.
Poker Stars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker Stars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Button ($5.64)
Hero (SB) ($13.58)
BB ($11.46)
UTG ($16.92)
MP ($3.36)
CO ($10.17)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, K

2 folds, CO raises $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.70) 2

, 5

, K

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.07, CO raises $2.14, Hero raises $5, CO calls $3.93

Turn: ($13.84) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $6.71 (All-In), CO calls $3.30 (All-In)

River: ($20.44) 8

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $20.44

Results below:

Spoiler

Hero had Q

, K

(one pair, Kings).
CO had 5

, 5

(three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: CO won $19.52

Hand2 Villain 43/43 AG100% 3B 66.7 8 hands
pokerstars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

Button ($10.17)
SB ($41.02)
BB ($11.69)
UTG ($24.01)
MP ($4.20)
Hero (CO) ($10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 10

, A

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.70) 3

, 10

, 8

(2 players)
SB bets $1.60, Hero calls $1.60

Turn: ($4.90) Q

(2 players)
SB bets $2.30, Hero calls $2.30

River: ($9.50) 4

(2 players)
SB bets $9.07, Hero calls $5.30 (All-In)

Total pot: $20.10 | Rake: $0.90

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had K

, K

(one pair, Kings).
Hero had 10

, A

(one pair, tens).
Outcome: SB won $19.20

Hand3 Villain 19/14 A21% 81 hands
PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Button ($15.51)
SB ($11.25)
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($10)
MP ($18.36)
CO ($4.53)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, A

1 fold, MP raises to $0.30, 2 folds, SB raises to $1.40, Hero calls $1.30, 1 fold

Flop: ($3.10) 7

, K

, 3

(2 players)
SB bets $1.97, Hero raises to $4.10, SB calls $2.13

Turn: ($11.30) 7

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4.50 (All-In), SB calls $4.50

River: ($20.30) 6

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $20.30 | Rake: $0.91

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had A

, A

(two pair, Aces and sevens).
Hero had K

, A

(two pair, Kings and sevens).
Outcome: SB won $19.39

 

[Figaroo2]

HM2 fault.

Rhom
That is the same fault I'm getting, was the same yesterday and the same even after I reinstalled.

The problem with the above stats is that you call them aggro but its 8 hands that means very little.
Over the first 40-50 hands even on FR I can vary massively on different tables from 6/4 in 40 hands up to 40/35 in 40 depending on how the cards come out, especially at 6max.
3betting with KQos, when you get called you have to strongly consider you might be dominated. I'm never re-raising on the flop there. Running into a set is a cooler but if we call and he fires again its a fold against all but the most agg fish.
The AT is 4bet or fold everytime. easy 4 bet against those stats
AKos if there is a raise and a reraise from two tight players in front of me in a cash game, its in the muck pre especially if the 3bettor doesn't 3bet often and i'm oop. I might consider a cold 4 bet squeeze with a loose opener and a heavy 3bettor but flatting without the initiative isn't great as we whiff 2 times out of 3.

My 3bet and squeeze stats are getting better month by month,
3bet stat for Jan 2015 a year ago was 3.50 and squeeze was 2.7 it took me until Nov to get it 3bet above 4and squeeze over 3.
My wtsd is usually 25.something so crept up a bit.
my vpip/pfr gap is normally 6% and has been for 2 years so its starting to close.

 

[rhombus]

Rhom
That is the same fault I'm getting, was the same yesterday and the same even after I reinstalled.

The problem with the above stats is that you call them aggro but its 8 hands that means very little.
Over the first 40-50 hands even on FR I can vary massively on different tables from 6/4 in 40 hands up to 40/35 in 40 depending on how the cards come out, especially at 6max.
3betting with KQos, when you get called you have to strongly consider you might be dominated. I'm never re-raising on the flop there. Running into a set is a cooler but if we call and he fires again its a fold against all but the most agg fish.
The AT is 4bet or fold everytime. easy 4 bet against those stats
AKos if there is a raise and a reraise from two tight players in front of me in a cash game, its in the muck pre especially if the 3bettor doesn't 3bet often.

My 3bet and squeeze stats are getting better month by month,
3bet stat for Jan 2015 a year ago was 3.50 and squeeze was 2.7 it took me until Nov to get it 3bet above 4and squeeze over 3.
My wtsd is usually 25.something so crept up a bit.
my vpip/pfr gap is normally 6% and has been for 2 years so its starting to close.

It might be after the Poker Snowie Update as that was installed yesterday. Did you get it yesterday thats when problems started for me.

As for the Hands, deep down I agree with all your comments but Im a 6Max fish lol. Yup definitely need to get more hands to make better reads.

Maybe I need to review the hands Im 3betting or folding.

These are my Leakbuster Overall Stats for January - All 6Max so my preflop stats should all be higher than yours as you mostly play FR
About 7K Regular 6Max and 18K 6Max Zoom

 

[Figaroo2]

It might be after the Poker Snowie Update as that was installed yesterday. Did you get it yesterday thats when problems started for me.
As for the Hands, deep down I agree with all your comments but Im a 6Max fish lol. Yup definitely need to get more hands to make better reads.
Maybe I need to review the hands Im 3betting or folding.
These are my Leakbuster Overall Stats for January - All 6Max so my preflop stats should all be higher than yours as you mostly play FR
About 7K Regular 6Max and 18K 6Max Zoom

I didn't do the snowie update until this evening to see if it would clear the fault but it didn't so its not that.

Even with my lesser experience I can easily pick out you are calling too many 3bets and not 4betting enough. Work on a 4bet bluff range.
WTSD is at the very top of the acceptable range, you can still shave some hands off here particularly by folding more often when you are raised on the flop, calling 2 of every 3 flop raises looks too high.

I'd cut back a few hands from MP and add extra hands onto your button opening range. I am opening more from the button in FR that you are at 6 max, I'd like to see your but button UO PFR closer to 45% than 35....mine is 38 FR and 47 at 6max.
If you do make this adjustment you will definitely need a 4bet bluffing range.

 

[John A]

Couldn't decide on this one tonight. Goofy slightly aggressive fish, but small sample. 44/16 55% agg. Call / Fold on river are probably close to neutral. It's more a read thing here for me. WTF is he CRing and then checking the turn and betting the river with? A flush? Or he flopped it and got scared? I figure if he's CR w/ only top pair there, and checking turn he'd be bluff catching river, but who knows. He's a goofy fish. I dunno.

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 102.7 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
BB: 146.35 BB (VPIP: 42.11, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
UTG: 61.45 BB (VPIP: 36.84, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
MP: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 30.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 10)
CO: 119.1 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
Hero (BTN): 96 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9:heart: T:spade:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 9:spade: 8:spade: 6:club:
BB checks, Hero bets 5 BB, BB raises to 12.5 BB, Hero calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (31.5 BB, 2 players) A:spade:
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (31.5 BB, 2 players) A:heart:
BB bets 16 BB, fold

[spoil]BB wins 45.95 BB
[/spoil]

 

[John A]

Here's a good one vs maybe a decent reg, but someone who is trying to outplay too many people.

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 104.1 BB (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 22.73, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 44)
BTN: 195 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 44)
SB: 187.65 BB (VPIP: 52.27, PFR: 38.64, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 44)
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 102.8 BB (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 17)
MP: 97 BB (VPIP: 6.25, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:diamond: T:spade:

fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 10.5 BB, CO calls 7.5 BB

Flop: (21.5 BB, 2 players) T:heart: Q:spade: Q:heart:
Hero bets 12 BB, CO raises to 29 BB, Hero calls 17 BB

Turn: (79.5 BB, 2 players) A:spade:
Hero checks, CO checks

River: (79.5 BB, 2 players) T:club:

What am I doing on the river?

 

[Figaroo2]

I'm probably finding a call here on a draw heavy board against someone that wide where none of the straight draws complete. I do agree that it's close though on the balance of possible hands he could have here.
I fancy viable hands for check raising would include any hand with a 7 or JT especially if he has a heart. Sets, flush draws and unlikely 2 pairs as well of course.
JT or 77 fit the play nicely here both of which we still beat on the end. Neither hand can be that comfortable betting the turn as a fish would fear you hitting the ace so will be happy to take a cheaper check call if necessary in order to try and complete a draw. He doesn't want to get raised on the turn without a made hand.
When you don't bet either ace he probably thinks he can stab at the pot with the strength shown on the flop. There are a whole bunch of broadways not calling.
To be fair I agree it's close on the end as he will also have a number of sets, flushes and the odd 75 & A7 where he's looking to CR but you cannily never gave him the opportunity.

 

[John A]

I'm probably finding a call here on a draw heavy board against someone that wide where none of the straight draws complete. I do agree that it's close though on the balance of possible hands he could have here.
I fancy viable hands for check raising would include any hand with a 7 or JT especially if he has a heart. Sets, flush draws and unlikely 2 pairs as well of course.
JT or 77 fit the play nicely here both of which we still beat on the end. Neither hand can be that comfortable betting the turn as a fish would fear you hitting the ace so will be happy to take a cheaper check call if necessary in order to try and complete a draw. He doesn't want to get raised on the turn without a made hand.
When you don't bet either ace he probably thinks he can stab at the pot with the strength shown on the flop. There are a whole bunch of broadways not calling.
To be fair I agree it's close on the end as he will also have a number of sets, flushes and the odd 75 & A7 where he's looking to CR but you cannily never gave him the opportunity.

He's not going to have a set very often. Maybe he's bad enough and does. It might be a tricky spot for him. It's most likely top pair betting for fun, flush, or missed combo / straight draw.

I guess the biggest thing is trying to determine how weaker players see checks on the turn once you call a CR. Decent players should consider that still strong. Weak players tend to mostly think someone is weak. Where does an aggressive fish fit in there.

 

[John A]

My aggression has increased alot especially C/R flops which seem to do ok. But other aspects of aggression When double barreling etc I seem to be running into hands all the time.

Its ok against passives as easier to fold, but I just cant fold against aggros and they seem to have it all the time. Maybe not enough hands on 1st 2 hands against aggros. Maybe I just got to that stage where I aint gonna take shit from an aggro lol especially when flush draws on the board

Hand 3 maybe fold Pre with another player to act but once on flop difficult to Fold

Hand1 Villain 67/67 50Ag% 50% 3Bet 6Hands.
Poker Stars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker Stars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Button ($5.64)
Hero (SB) ($13.58)
BB ($11.46)
UTG ($16.92)
MP ($3.36)
CO ($10.17)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, K

2 folds, CO raises $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.70) 2

, 5

, K

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.07, CO raises $2.14, Hero raises $5, CO calls $3.93

Turn: ($13.84) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $6.71 (All-In), CO calls $3.30 (All-In)

River: ($20.44) 8

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $20.44

Results below:

Spoiler

Hero had Q

, K

(one pair, Kings).
CO had 5

, 5

(three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: CO won $19.52

Against someone aggressive I tend to prefer calling, keeping their bluffing range in, and CRing most blank turns. Sometimes just c/c also. Depends on texture and hand strength. But in general it's more prudent to just let them hang themselves.

Hand2 Villain 43/43 AG100% 3B 66.7 8 hands
PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

Button ($10.17)
SB ($41.02)
BB ($11.69)
UTG ($24.01)
MP ($4.20)
Hero (CO) ($10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 10

, A

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.70) 3

, 10

, 8

(2 players)
SB bets $1.60, Hero calls $1.60

Turn: ($4.90) Q

(2 players)
SB bets $2.30, Hero calls $2.30

River: ($9.50) 4

(2 players)
SB bets $9.07, Hero calls $5.30 (All-In)

Total pot: $20.10 | Rake: $0.90

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had K

, K

(one pair, Kings).
Hero had 10

, A

(one pair, tens).
Outcome: SB won $19.20

You need to fold or shove the turn. Think of it this way. If you're calling because you think he's on some kind of draw / combo draw at this point, he committed. Might as well get all of the money now in case he just gives up. If he's bluffing, he's likely not going to bluff the river w/ those stack sizes. If he has a weak hand, you're probably not getting anymore out of him, but he might call the shove. So the turn is decision time. With only 8 hands I'd probably fold, but it's close. I don't think a shove is huge +/- EV here.

Hand3 Villain 19/14 A21% 81 hands
PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Button ($15.51)
SB ($11.25)
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($10)
MP ($18.36)
CO ($4.53)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, A

1 fold, MP raises to $0.30, 2 folds, SB raises to $1.40, Hero calls $1.30, 1 fold

Flop: ($3.10) 7

, K

, 3

(2 players)
SB bets $1.97, Hero raises to $4.10, SB calls $2.13

Turn: ($11.30) 7

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4.50 (All-In), SB calls $4.50

River: ($20.30) 6

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $20.30 | Rake: $0.91

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had A

, A

(two pair, Aces and sevens).
Hero had K

, A

(two pair, Kings and sevens).
Outcome: SB won $19.39

Looks good... nh.

 

[Figaroo2]

Here's a good one vs maybe a decent reg, but someone who is trying to outplay too many people.
iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
CO: 104.1 BB (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 22.73, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 44)
BTN: 195 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 44)
SB: 187.65 BB (VPIP: 52.27, PFR: 38.64, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 44)
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 102.8 BB (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 17)
MP: 97 BB (VPIP: 6.25, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T♦ T♠
fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 10.5 BB, CO calls 7.5 BB
Flop: (21.5 BB, 2 players) T♥ Q♠ Q♥
Hero bets 12 BB, CO raises to 29 BB, Hero calls 17 BB
Turn: (79.5 BB, 2 players) A♠
Hero checks, CO checks
River: (79.5 BB, 2 players) T♣
What am I doing on the river?

Pot is 79bb and we both have 60ish bb behind less than a pot sized bet.
I hate not betting here in case he checks behind with something like JJ or Ace rag,
Where I don't know what he might do I'd just shove, he's calling any Q obviously and the value to be gained outweighs most other factors.

Here though we know he's aggressive and he likes to feel he can outplay anyone. In that case we can bet small to induce and make sure we get some thing out of the river in case he just calls. 18-20bb is a suitable scared blocker looking bet that gives him the opportunity to shove over us with all his hands and give him the feeling he can still outplay us.

 

[rhombus]

I didn't do the snowie update until this evening to see if it would clear the fault but it didn't so its not that.

Even with my lesser experience I can easily pick out you are calling too many 3bets and not 4betting enough. Work on a 4bet bluff range.
WTSD is at the very top of the acceptable range, you can still shave some hands off here particularly by folding more often when you are raised on the flop, calling 2 of every 3 flop raises looks too high.

I'd cut back a few hands from MP and add extra hands onto your button opening range. I am opening more from the button in FR that you are at 6 max, I'd like to see your but button UO PFR closer to 45% than 35....mine is 38 FR and 47 at 6max.
If you do make this adjustment you will definitely need a 4bet bluffing range.

thanks good advice as always

 

[John A]

Pot is 79bb and we both have 60ish bb behind less than a pot sized bet.
I hate not betting here in case he checks behind with something like JJ or Ace rag,
Where I don't know what he might do I'd just shove, he's calling any Q obviously and the value to be gained outweighs most other factors.

Here though we know he's aggressive and he likes to feel he can outplay anyone. In that case we can bet small to induce and make sure we get some thing out of the river in case he just calls. 18-20bb is a suitable scared blocker looking bet that gives him the opportunity to shove over us with all his hands and give him the feeling he can still outplay us.

Woot. You get a star today! Good job.

So this is one of those hands that just looks like it's a no brainer in a lot of ways that you can just totally miss getting max value if you aren't careful. I'll start on the flop.

Flopping the 2nd nuts makes poker easy. What isn't always easy is making sure you're reading your opponents and knowing what their tendencies are. My read was already - Durrr, what I name guys who think they'll be outplaying everyone every hand.

So... I don't want to check. I want to make a weak looking c-bet. Something that says, I might be just trying to take a cheap stab with AJ/AK type hands. So I bet 12bbs into 21.5. I think the perfect size here, and get raised. Also note, there's a bit of a pause before the raise. All things that will start adding up that he likely has air.

So, raised to 29, no way in hell am I re-popping. If he has a Q, all the money is going in at some point. So only play here is to call and check the turn. If he has a Q or air he's mostly shoving. Everything else I can expect a check behind.

Ace comes on the turn and he checks. This should have been a good scare card, so that tells me he has some piece, either a draw or he now hit an A.

River is another T. He doesn't have a Q, so now he either has a draw, or an A, and air is also a lesser possibility. Only thing is to try and get value from an A, at the same time adding some possibility of looking like a blocker bet that might fold because of the double paired board.

I bet $18, he snap calls with Ad9d.

I think we got max value in that hand.

 

[rhombus]

Couldn't decide on this one tonight. Goofy slightly aggressive fish, but small sample. 44/16 55% agg. Call / Fold on river are probably close to neutral. It's more a read thing here for me. WTF is he CRing and then checking the turn and betting the river with? A flush? Or he flopped it and got scared? I figure if he's CR w/ only top pair there, and checking turn he'd be bluff catching river, but who knows. He's a goofy fish. I dunno.

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 102.7 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
BB: 146.35 BB (VPIP: 42.11, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
UTG: 61.45 BB (VPIP: 36.84, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
MP: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 30.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 10)
CO: 119.1 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
Hero (BTN): 96 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9♥ T♠

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 9♠ 8♠ 6♣
BB checks, Hero bets 5 BB, BB raises to 12.5 BB, Hero calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (31.5 BB, 2 players) A♠
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (31.5 BB, 2 players) A♥
BB bets 16 BB, fold

[spoil]BB wins 45.95 BB
[/spoil]

Maybe a flush although could be something like A7 seems logical.
CR with OESD and over, scared of flush then value betting his Ace or represeting Ace if he just had a 7.

PS if im talking crap just let me know lol. Ive tried to hand read when people post but dont get feedback if maybe right or full of $41t. I can handle the pain. Really I can :icon_puke

PS John you talk about when peopl just post VPIP/PFR when theres a big gap they tend to be passive but in this example he has a big gap but then 55% agg.

is the VPIP/PFR gap the 1st clue then the AG% confirmation, if low. Or does AG% overrule passive preflop stats if AG% is high

 

[rhombus]

Hand Reading Quiz
What does Villain have in Hand 1 and 2

Hand1 Villain 50/0 AG 100% 2 hands (never said it was going to be easy)
Also they min donk out alot at these stakes usually with crap, weak flush draws, middle pairs or top pair no kicker
[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $13.83 (138.3 bb)
BB: $1.23 (12.3 bb)
UTG: $9.40 (94 bb)
MP: $3.07 (30.7 bb)
CO: $10.91 (109.1 bb)
Hero (BTN): $18.53 (185.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with J:spade: A:diamond:
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.75) 5:heart: 3:diamond: 9:heart: (2 players)
UTG bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, UTG calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.55) 4:club: (2 players)
UTG bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1.10, UTG calls $0.80

River: ($4.75) 2:spade: (2 players)
UTG bets $0.50, Hero raises to $2.71, UTG calls $2.21


Hand 2 Villain 50/0 AG100% 2hands not same as villain in 1st hand

[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $13.49 (134.9 bb)
BB: $4.39 (43.9 bb)
UTG: $11.56 (115.6 bb)
Hero (MP): $13.27 (132.7 bb)
CO: $14.27 (142.7 bb)
BTN: $4.05 (40.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T:spade: K:diamond:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 3 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) 4:club: T:heart: 2:diamond: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.50, BB raises to $1, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($2.65) Q:diamond: (2 players)
BB bets $1.30, Hero raises to $3.86, BB calls $1.79

River: ($8.83) A:diamond: (2 players)

 

[Figaroo2]

I guess the biggest thing is trying to determine how weaker players see checks on the turn once you call a CR. Decent players should consider that still strong. Weak players tend to mostly think someone is weak. Where does an aggressive fish fit in there.

If we were teaching a brand new player to be aggressive we'd be telling him betting and check raise is generally strong. Checks and calls are generally weaker. It isn't until you've played for sometime that you realise they are all just tools of the poker trade and all can be strong or weak depending on the circumstances of the hand.
I can't see fishy players being good enough to understand that a check can be strong no matter how aggressive they are. I would think most players realise there is some strength in the calling of a check raise though.
In the 9T hand He check raises the flop and then checks the turn, so he is good enough to recognise the strength in your call.
As he sees no value in betting this indicates to me he is almost certainly drawing. The bet on the end indicates showdown value so I'd say he has at least a pair. I still fancy 77, 78, 97, 76, T8 as his most likely holdings which is why I favored a call with our 99.

 

[Figaroo2]

Rhom
Clearly 1st is a massive fish so could be really wide and with no info we have to use the board as our guide. As you pointed out they lead with crappy draws and all pairs so we have to consider the flush draw as the most likely hand. With the board running out like it did it is highly likely you both finished with a straight. I just hope he didn't have 6h4h and you managed to chop. He has Ah4h here quite a bit as well. But hey I wouldn't be surprised if he turned over a set of 33 and you scooped it he could any part of it and not give up. The only thing that would surprise me here is total air with no flush or straight draws.
I am probably just calling on the turn in hand 1 and raising the river.

Hand 2 we are never folding on the flop. I agree it's a fold or shove on the turn. The check raise on the flop suggests we are probably beaten more often than not though. If it's a regular table you can lend him your chips on a temporary basis with the knowledge you're going to have a good chance of getting them back. If it was zoom I'd probably fold the turn.
In the absence of FD it looks like small sets, Tx or possibly trapping with premium pairs JJ+. But tbh I wouldn't be surprised if he turned up with a mid pair who knows what they are thinking

 

[rhombus]

Rhom
Clearly 1st is a massive fish so could be really wide and with no info we have to use the board as our guide. As you pointed out they lead with crappy draws and all pairs so we have to consider the flush draw as the most likely hand. With the board running out like it did it is highly likely you both finished with a straight. I just hope he didn't have 6h4h and you managed to chop. He has Ah4h here quite a bit as well. But hey I wouldn't be surprised if he turned over a set of 33 and you scooped it he could any part of it and not give up. The only thing that would surprise me here is total air with no flush or straight draws.
I am probably just calling on the turn in hand 1 and raising the river.

Hand 2 we are never folding on the flop. I agree it's a fold or shove on the turn. The check raise on the flop suggests we are probably beaten more often than not though. If it's a regular table you can lend him your chips on a temporary basis with the knowledge you're going to have a good chance of getting them back. If it was zoom I'd probably fold the turn.
In the absence of FD it looks like small sets, Tx or possibly trapping with premium pairs JJ+. But tbh I wouldn't be surprised if he turned up with a mid pair who knows what they are thinking

Hand1 he had the stones but didnt reraise
[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $13.83 (138.3 bb)
BB: $1.23 (12.3 bb)
UTG: $9.40 (94 bb)
MP: $3.07 (30.7 bb)
CO: $10.91 (109.1 bb)
Hero (BTN): $18.53 (185.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with J:spade: A:diamond:
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.75) 5:heart: 3:diamond: 9:heart: (2 players)
UTG bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, UTG calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.55) 4:club: (2 players)
UTG bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1.10, UTG calls $0.80

River: ($4.75) 2:spade: (2 players)
UTG bets $0.50, Hero raises to $2.71, UTG calls $2.21

Results: $10.17 pot ($0.46 rake)
Final Board: 5:heart: 3:diamond: 9:heart: 4:club: 2:spade:
UTG showed 6:spade: 7:spade: and won $9.71 ($4.70 net)
Hero showed J:spade: A:diamond: and lost (-$5.01 net)


Hand 2, they had nothing. If they were full stacked I think easy fold on Turn.
How the hell are you supposed to read these guys??????????
[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $13.49 (134.9 bb)
BB: $4.39 (43.9 bb)
UTG: $11.56 (115.6 bb)
Hero (MP): $13.27 (132.7 bb)
CO: $14.27 (142.7 bb)
BTN: $4.05 (40.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T:spade: K:diamond:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 3 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) 4:club: T:heart: 2:diamond: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.50, BB raises to $1, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($2.65) Q:diamond: (2 players)
BB bets $1.30, Hero raises to $3.86, BB calls $1.79

River: ($8.83) A:diamond: (2 players)

Results: $8.83 pot ($0.40 rake)
Final Board: 4:club: T:heart: 2:diamond: Q:diamond: A:diamond:
BB showed 9:club: 6:club: and lost (-$4.39 net)
Hero showed T:spade: K:diamond: and won $8.43 ($4.04 net)

 

[John A]

Maybe a flush although could be something like A7 seems logical.
CR with OESD and over, scared of flush then value betting his Ace or represeting Ace if he just had a 7.

PS if im talking crap just let me know lol. Ive tried to hand read when people post but dont get feedback if maybe right or full of $41t. I can handle the pain. Really I can :icon_puke

PS John you talk about when peopl just post VPIP/PFR when theres a big gap they tend to be passive but in this example he has a big gap but then 55% agg.

is the VPIP/PFR gap the 1st clue then the AG% confirmation, if low. Or does AG% overrule passive preflop stats if AG% is high

Yes, flush is part of his range, but checking there isn't the greatest. A7 is kind of the same thing. But both of those are possible.

And yes, if there's a big gap in vpip/pfr, that's the general assumption if no other information is present. But it also depends on ratio... like if someone is 55/28, I'm not going to assume they are passive. They could still be, but it's less likely, where someone like 35/8 I'm going to assume is more passive. Here there's a big gap, but he does PFR a decent amount and I have his actual agg%.

You combine all the info you have, and if you have agg%, then we want to use that to create a player profile. But if it's small sample, then you just need to use your best judgement based on vpip/pfr and available agg%. People don't post agg% a lot in the forums, and that's probably why you've heard me mention it in terms of vpip/pfr assumptions.

 

[John A]

Hand1 he had the stones but didnt reraise
[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $13.83 (138.3 bb)
BB: $1.23 (12.3 bb)
UTG: $9.40 (94 bb)
MP: $3.07 (30.7 bb)
CO: $10.91 (109.1 bb)
Hero (BTN): $18.53 (185.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with J♠ A♦
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.75) 5♥ 3♦ 9♥ (2 players)
UTG bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, UTG calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.55) 4♣ (2 players)
UTG bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1.10, UTG calls $0.80

River: ($4.75) 2♠ (2 players)
UTG bets $0.50, Hero raises to $2.71, UTG calls $2.21

Results: $10.17 pot ($0.46 rake)
Final Board: 5♥ 3♦ 9♥ 4♣ 2♠
UTG showed 6♠ 7♠ and won $9.71 ($4.70 net)
Hero showed J♠ A♦ and lost (-$5.01 net)

Sorry, I saw the spolier now but it's not going to change what I was going to say. If a fish leads into you on this kind of board, it's generally a weak hand or a draw, and one they aren't folding unless you raise a lot larger. And even if you do raise larger, they may not even fold. Just keep that in mind.

Once they do this again on the turn, then you need to be folding or shoving, The raise sizing isn't going to do anything if he's called a raise and taking the same line again.

On the river, I think raising here is ok, but it is highly likely they have a 6 based on how they played this hand. Crazy that he didn't shove w/ the nuts.

Hand 2, they had nothing. If they were full stacked I think easy fold on Turn.
How the hell are you supposed to read these guys??????????
[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $13.49 (134.9 bb)
BB: $4.39 (43.9 bb)
UTG: $11.56 (115.6 bb)
Hero (MP): $13.27 (132.7 bb)
CO: $14.27 (142.7 bb)
BTN: $4.05 (40.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T♠ K♦
UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 3 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) 4♣ T♥ 2♦ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.50, BB raises to $1, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($2.65) Q♦ (2 players)
BB bets $1.30, Hero raises to $3.86, BB calls $1.79

River: ($8.83) A♦ (2 players)

Results: $8.83 pot ($0.40 rake)
Final Board: 4♣ T♥ 2♦ Q♦ A♦
BB showed 9♣ 6♣ and lost (-$4.39 net)
Hero showed T♠ K♦ and won $8.43 ($4.04 net)

Good... good that you shoved or folded there on the turn. Nh.

 

[rhombus]

Hand1 Villain 67/67 50Ag% 50% 3Bet 6Hands.
Poker Stars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker Stars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Button ($5.64)
Hero (SB) ($13.58)
BB ($11.46)
UTG ($16.92)
MP ($3.36)
CO ($10.17)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, K

2 folds, CO raises $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.70) 2

, 5

, K

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.07, CO raises $2.14, Hero raises $5, CO calls $3.93

Turn: ($13.84) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $6.71 (All-In), CO calls $3.30 (All-In)

River: ($20.44) 8

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $20.44


Hero had Q

, K

(one pair, Kings).
CO had 5

, 5

(three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: CO won $19.52

Against someone aggressive I tend to prefer calling, keeping their bluffing range in, and CRing most blank turns. Sometimes just c/c also. Depends on texture and hand strength. But in general it's more prudent to just let them hang themselves.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas.../10-nlhe-6-max-min-raised-280745/#post2851893
The KQ hand you commented on I also posted it in the Cash game thread and got alot of differing view. I also posted a summary of their 3Betting suggestions.
Does the summaryI posted make sense/logic.



OOP 3Bet 3.5 - 4 to lower SPR with a depolarised Range(Top and Middle of your Range)
In Position 3Bet 2.5 - 3 with a polarised Range(Top and Bottom of your Range).

If this is the case in general does it alter when playing against Aggros/Regs and FISH.

i.e. always play depolarised against fish because they will call down light and you dont want the bottom of your range as less likely to hit