Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

Figaroo2

Figaroo2

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another night another 5 buyins all with big hands and mostly in position
apart from shove flop how do you avoid going broke

Well as we can now see he had QQ then any raise on the flop would have got the job done.
I agree 4bet pre is an option but in position I think flatting the 3bet is okay. I would ask what hands are you 4betting here then? I do quite a bit of 4bet bluffing from the button with my Ace/small so to balance that personally I'm probably 4betting pre here and calling a shove. It really depends how tight he is and how often he 3bets. Flatting maybe more appropriate against a tight player as I'm not really wanting to stack off pre with AKs against those types.
A 4bet would also then have given us the initiative and a cbet would have taken it down.
As played we just got hugely unlucky that he hit one of his two outs but we certainly could have raised the flop hoping for a spazzy shove from AQ AJ. You slow played it and paid the biggest penalty.
 
Figaroo2

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Here are a few from today's. I'm curious about hand number 1 mainly. But any comments on others are appreciated.

1. Not much of a read on villain except to say they seemed pretty solid but tended to fold to pressure. I called the re-raise figuring I'd bet 3/4 of the flop (AJo quasi hand here) but then the flush draw showed up.

Personally I'm never flatting a 4bet out of position and without the initiative with AJ off suit. This is a fold to the 4bet from a tight player. You fought valiantly but got nailed pretty much as you deserved to be.
Your bet sizing is on the larger size which also costs you a few bb when you have to fold 50c is enough.
All part of the learning curve......
 
Figaroo2

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I'm free tonight. Lets do it!

lol Where were you then....you missed a really informative session with Duggs. (Thanks buddy) made me realise I was getting a bit too nitty and I had an interesting battle with at 90/58 whale a 20nl on 888. Flopped a boat and hit a flush on river to take most of his stack.
 
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Need coach emerfency

Yes i need i pay 100 dólar hour
 
duggs

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lol Where were you then....you missed a really informative session with Duggs. (Thanks buddy) made me realise I was getting a bit too nitty and I had an interesting battle with at 90/58 whale a 20nl on 888. Flopped a boat and hit a flush on river to take most of his stack.

any time man
 
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Personally I'm never flatting a 4bet out of position and without the initiative with AJ off suit. This is a fold to the 4bet from a tight player. You fought valiantly but got nailed pretty much as you deserved to be.
Your bet sizing is on the larger size which also costs you a few bb when you have to fold 50c is enough.
All part of the learning curve......

Haha yup I got nailed all right. Good call Figaroo. I find I'm still having trouble getting away from these hands when 4bet. Is there anything that you tell yourself that helps you?

Bet size was too big? I though one was supposed to 3bet larger out of position? 50c is larger since in position I'm 3betting 45c but is that enough?
 
Figaroo2

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Haha yup I got nailed all right. Good call Figaroo. I find I'm still having trouble getting away from these hands when 4bet. Is there anything that you tell yourself that helps you?

Bet size was too big? I though one was supposed to 3bet larger out of position? 50c is larger since in position I'm 3betting 45c but is that enough?

Your 3bet was to 60 making it x4. I'm saying 50c x3.5 serves the same purpose. If he's calling he's calling if he's raising and you are going to fold betting 50 saves you 10c 2bb.

regarding being 4bet. At 5nl most players are still learning the game few at that level have Developed an understanding of 4bet bluffing. They neither know when it's appropriate or with what hands to be using. Therefore you you usually assume a 4bet is a very strong hand and act accordingly. Most of the time you should be folding. That includes the AJ hand were the best you can really hope for is 30% equity.

Of your other hands I didn't like the big overshove with 45. It's important to play bottom 2 pair aggressive and raise there but we can still get value from Qx in this spot by sizing your bet to something he can call. Only a drooler is calling that shove with anything we beat so we are losing decent value by over shoving
 
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Your 3bet was to 60 making it x4. I'm saying 50c x3.5 serves the same purpose. If he's calling he's calling if he's raising and you are going to fold betting 50 saves you 10c 2bb.

regarding being 4bet. At 5nl most players are still learning the game few at that level have Developed an understanding of 4bet bluffing. They neither know when it's appropriate or with what hands to be using. Therefore you you usually assume a 4bet is a very strong hand and act accordingly. Most of the time you should be folding. That includes the AJ hand were the best you can really hope for is 30% equity.

Of your other hands I didn't like the big overshove with 45. It's important to play bottom 2 pair aggressive and raise there but we can still get value from Qx in this spot by sizing your bet to something he can call. Only a drooler is calling that shove with anything we beat so we are losing decent value by over shoving

Awesome thanks again. I'll focus more on "believing" villain when they 4bet at this level. That will get me out of some of those tough spots that I tend to find myself in. All the time... Like seriously all the time... Lol

3.5 x it is then! Another thing I should probably assume is that at 4x I was tending to buy the pot a bit more and wouldn't get many callers unless they were holding their top 3-4%, which adds more 4bets to have to contend with vs. playing post flop. Would you agree?

The 45. I had a feeling I was being way too aggressive on this one. Considering also that villain wasn't an overly aggressive player and (if I took a moment to think about it) I should have known he wouldn't call a big shove like that. 2/3 to 3/4 would have been a more reasonable bet and given them a better reason to come along while aggressively defending my low 2 pair.

If I'm being honest with myself I was probably over playing because I was chasing my big loss on the AJ. If I would have folded that hand on the 4bet my mentality for the whole session wouldn't have been so frantic.
 
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rhombus

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Well as we can now see he had QQ then any raise on the flop would have got the job done.
I agree 4bet pre is an option but in position I think flatting the 3bet is okay. I would ask what hands are you 4betting here then? I do quite a bit of 4bet bluffing from the button with my Ace/small so to balance that personally I'm probably 4betting pre here and calling a shove. It really depends how tight he is and how often he 3bets. Flatting maybe more appropriate against a tight player as I'm not really wanting to stack off pre with AKs against those types.
A 4bet would also then have given us the initiative and a cbet would have taken it down.
As played we just got hugely unlucky that he hit one of his two outs but we certainly could have raised the flop hoping for a spazzy shove from AQ AJ. You slow played it and paid the biggest penalty.
Against UTG If I 4Bet small and they shove I probably have to let it go as another one of the hands I posted was another QQ vs KK although it went all in on the flop which was 46T R

I do occasionly 4bet bluff but seem to run into AA, KK when I shove with AK, QQ etc :(.
 
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another AK from last night .Villain 14/14/AG67 3Bet 16.7 from 29 hands.
Thought about 4betting preflop and calling a shove as he was aggro but decided to call to keep his weaker Aces KQ, KJ etc

Also though about CRaising flop with 2 overs BDF and BDS (thoughts). Once I called was then priced in on Turn as more outs or maybe should I have shoved the Turn

poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.24 (104.8 bb)
BB: $5 (100 bb)
UTG: $3.48 (69.6 bb)
MP: $8.72 (174.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $9.18 (183.6 bb)
BTN: $5.40 (108 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A
club4.gif
K
heart4.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, BTN folds, SB raises to $0.45, BB folds, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.95) Q
heart4.gif
3
spade4.gif
6
heart4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $0.68, Hero calls $0.68

Turn: ($2.31) J
heart4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $1.65, Hero calls $1.65

River: ($5.61) 2
club4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $2.46 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $5.61 pot ($0.23 rake)
Final Board: Q
heart4.gif
3
spade4.gif
6
heart4.gif
J
heart4.gif
2
club4.gif

SB mucked and won $5.38 ($2.60 net)
Hero mucked A
club4.gif
K
heart4.gif
and lost (-$2.78 net)
 
Figaroo2

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Against UTG If I 4Bet small and they shove I probably have to let it go as another one of the hands I posted was another QQ vs KK although it went all in on the flop which was 46T R
I do occasionly 4bet bluff but seem to run into AA, KK when I shove with AK, QQ etc :(.

The hand I was commenting on you had AKs on button and were 3bet by the SB.
 
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rhombus

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The hand I was commenting on you had AKs on button and were 3bet by the SB.
OOPs seem to have alot of AK hands at moment lol in that one villain 20/14 32agg 251 hands.

similar to last one could have easily 4bet and got it in but sometimes call to get dominated hands calling. Good flop and decided to take one more card especially as in position before shoving - just happened to not be a good card
 
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Here's a few from today. I wasn't really able to get anything going so not a great session as a money earner but a better session for good folds... At least I'm hoping

Hand 1. Did I do the right thing by calling the turn? It gave me more a bit more equity but at the same time even if I did hit the flush I would still only have a mid card
pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

Hero (CO) ($6.28)
Button ($8.60)
SB ($4.68)
BB ($5)
UTG ($5.28)
MP ($4.41)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7
spade.gif
, 7
heart.gif

UTG raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.15, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 8
club.gif
, J
spade.gif
, 3
spade.gif
(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.37) 6
spade.gif
(2 players)
UTG bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

River: ($0.77) 3
heart.gif
(2 players)
UTG bets $0.45, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.77 | Rake: $0.03

Results below:
UTG didn't show

Hand 2. Good fold? Should I have bet the flop or did I do the right thing?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Hero (Button) ($4.98)
SB ($8.41)
BB ($4.78)
UTG ($5.24)
MP ($5.13)
CO ($5.38)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10
spade.gif
, 10
heart.gif

UTG raises to $0.15, 1 fold, CO calls $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.52) 7
club.gif
, K
club.gif
, 4
diamond.gif
(3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.52) A
spade.gif
(3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.52) 3
heart.gif
(3 players)
UTG checks, CO bets $0.37, Hero folds, 1 fold

Total pot: $0.52 | Rake: $0.02

Results below:
CO didn't show

Hand 3. And the lovely AK

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Hero (CO) ($4.93)
Button ($7.56)
SB ($4.80)
BB ($5.07)
UTG ($5)
MP ($5.14)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A
diamond.gif
, K
heart.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 2 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) 2
spade.gif
, 2
club.gif
, J
club.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, BB calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.72) 6
spade.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.45, BB calls $0.45

River: ($1.62) 4
heart.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $1.62 | Rake: $0.07

Results below:
BB had 7
club.gif
, 7
heart.gif
(two pair, sevens and twos).
Hero didn't show A
diamond.gif
, K
heart.gif
(one pair, twos).
Outcome: BB won $1.55
 
Aces2w1n

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Hand 3: triple barrelling there.

Hand 2: I'm calling river.

Hand 1: folding turn
 
duggs

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Hand 1 is fine,

hand 2 I probably bet flop for protection/value on the flop, river is meh i guess we can call.

hand 3 I really dont like firing 2 barrels here with this hand without any reads against the average 5nl player. tho i suppose we win at sd sometimes so its not the worse. I think ill just bet flop and then x turn since we have all flush draws/backdoor flush draws and hands that block front door flush doors to bet before we bet this one. and if it goes x x on the turn we have a good deal of equity.
 
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hand 3 I really dont like firing 2 barrels here with this hand without any reads against the average 5nl player. tho i suppose we win at sd sometimes so its not the worse. I think ill just bet flop and then x turn since we have all flush draws/backdoor flush draws and hands that block front door flush doors to bet before we bet this one. and if it goes x x on the turn we have a good deal of equity.

Thanks Duggs for your comments as well. Would you mind expanding on your comments quoted above? I'm pretty new so I don't really understand everything. The portion I'm really confused about is:

"and hands that block front door flush doors to bet before we bet"

Totally lost me there dude.

Thanks!
 
or3o1990

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lol Where were you then....you missed a really informative session with Duggs. (Thanks buddy) made me realise I was getting a bit too nitty and I had an interesting battle with at 90/58 whale a 20nl on 888. Flopped a boat and hit a flush on river to take most of his stack.

Sorry for flaking, I got distracted with some pre Thanksgiving shenanigans.
 
duggs

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Thanks Duggs for your comments as well. Would you mind expanding on your comments quoted above? I'm pretty new so I don't really understand everything. The portion I'm really confused about is:

"and hands that block front door flush doors to bet before we bet"

Totally lost me there dude.

Thanks!

Ok im going to go a bit off topic then circle back to your question so bear with me.

right so when we bet we want some value hands and some bluffs, value hands are pretty obvious, but when we select our bluffs there are a few criteria to consider.

A) their respective fold equity (usually this is the same for most hands excluding big blocker effects)

B) their equity when called, ie their ability to retain equity.

C) their equity if we dont bluff with them. in laymens terms their showdown value.

easiest way to explain C) is with an A K Q minigame. you get dealt either A/K/Q and i get dealt the same (assume our hands are independent ie both can have A or K or Q), you can either bet, and if get to call or fold, or you can check and high hand wins.

obviously, you always bet A, because there is no downside to betting it. thats the value betting part. K is too weak to value bet since it has exactly 50% equity when checked down and has less when called.

If you are given the choice of betting K or Q as a bluff, then you prefer to use Q as it only has 16% equity to begin with (it only chops v other queens, which happens 1/3 of the time). this is the basic logic that leads to polarised ranges.

On the river, all bluffs have the same equity when called (0% and often have close to that against villains entire range). So A) is the only factor that determines which hands we bluff

but on the turn hands that hold their equity well are clean draws, such as flush or straight draws.

So basically what im saying is that my bluffing range will firstly contain all the frontdoor flush draws Axxcc xxcc in my range, and also all backdoor flush draws, Axss xxss etc, before i include AK in my double barrel range.

I think AKo in this spot has quite a high amount of C) but a low amount of B) and no A) on the turn, so i wouldnt want to bet it.
 
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Ok im going to go a bit off topic then circle back to your question so bear with me.

right so when we bet we want some value hands and some bluffs, value hands are pretty obvious, but when we select our bluffs there are a few criteria to consider.

A) their respective fold equity (usually this is the same for most hands excluding big blocker effects)

B) their equity when called, ie their ability to retain equity.

C) their equity if we dont bluff with them. in laymens terms their showdown value.

easiest way to explain C) is with an A K Q minigame. you get dealt either A/K/Q and i get dealt the same (assume our hands are independent ie both can have A or K or Q), you can either bet, and if get to call or fold, or you can check and high hand wins.

obviously, you always bet A, because there is no downside to betting it. thats the value betting part. K is too weak to value bet since it has exactly 50% equity when checked down and has less when called.

If you are given the choice of betting K or Q as a bluff, then you prefer to use Q as it only has 16% equity to begin with (it only chops v other queens, which happens 1/3 of the time). this is the basic logic that leads to polarised ranges.

On the river, all bluffs have the same equity when called (0% and often have close to that against villains entire range). So A) is the only factor that determines which hands we bluff

but on the turn hands that hold their equity well are clean draws, such as flush or straight draws.

So basically what im saying is that my bluffing range will firstly contain all the frontdoor flush draws Axxcc xxcc in my range, and also all backdoor flush draws, Axss xxss etc, before i include AK in my double barrel range.

I think AKo in this spot has quite a high amount of C) but a low amount of B) and no A) on the turn, so i wouldnt want to bet it.

Fricken genius! Duggs I'm picking up what you're putting down here : ) I see where I really had very little value in the turn so checking was the better option. Holy I have to practice how to think that way...

Would I have been able to play the hand differently to be able to increase A? In position with out really wanting to alter my opening bet sizing I'm not seeing one. Would I be correct?
 
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I didn't like the texture of this board at all and I felt a little frustrated that I didn't have a chance to build the pot a bit more. Should I have continued or was checking through the right call?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

Button ($5.97)
SB ($6.91)
BB ($7.57)
UTG ($3.83)
Hero (MP) ($4.09)
CO ($5)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3
heart.gif
, 3
club.gif

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.15, 3 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) 4
diamond.gif
, 8
diamond.gif
, 3
spade.gif
(2 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.82) J
diamond.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.82) 9
diamond.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $0.82 | Rake: $0.03

Results below:
BB had Q
heart.gif
, 8
heart.gif
(one pair, eights).
Hero had 3
heart.gif
, 3
club.gif
(three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: Hero won $0.79


Hand 2. Easy fold?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

CO ($5.97)
Button ($6.89)
SB ($7.17)
BB ($3.83)
Hero (UTG) ($4.48)
MP ($5)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q
club.gif
, J
diamond.gif

Hero raises to $0.15, MP raises to $0.35, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.77) K
club.gif
, J
spade.gif
, 5
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35

Turn: ($1.47) 9
heart.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, MP raises to $4.30 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $2.87 | Rake: $0.12

Results below:
MP didn't show
 
Figaroo2

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Hand 1, raise on the flop, I would literally always be raising here with a set and someone having donked out into it.
You need to attack these donk bets most of the time anyway, usually they are bets from medium strength hands or draws that think they are strong enough to bet hoping to take it down straight away and get a reasonably cheap card, they nearly always call the first raise.

Hand 2 I would fold QJo to the 3 bet almost 100% of the time. You are so often dominated it doesn't bear thinking about.

Excellent post by Duggs.
 
duggs

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Fricken genius! Duggs I'm picking up what you're putting down here : ) I see where I really had very little value in the turn so checking was the better option. Holy I have to practice how to think that way...

Would I have been able to play the hand differently to be able to increase A? In position with out really wanting to alter my opening bet sizing I'm not seeing one. Would I be correct?

Well its actually the opposite, I think AK has a little too much equity against his turn range, but it loses most of it when it bets turn and is called.

No thats not really how it works, A is essentially exogenous for any given bet sizing, and we construct our strategy around it.

well if A is high enough we should bluff everything theoretically. eg, if he folds 90% on the river, to a half pot bet, we should half pot basically every bluff we can, and should turn hands with up to 75% equity into bluffs.

Its obviously a function of our bet sizing and i can go over optimal sizing if you want but the basic EV calcs for bet and check when they fold 90% on the river and we bet half pot

general calc is
EVbluff= foldfreq*P- (P+B)call frequency

where P is pot and B is bet

EVbet=.9*P-.1*1.5P
=.75P

EVcheck= .75P

Dont take that ABC breakdown as gospel btw i havent done the best job of outlining our motivations to bet because i was in a bit of a rush.
 
duggs

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33 raise flop all day every day.

QJo fold to a normal sized 3bet, can call this stupidly small one tho. dont donk flop and dont lead turn, i would x/c flop as a default assuming normalish sizing
 
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Hand 1, raise on the flop, I would literally always be raising here with a set and someone having donked out into it.
You need to attack these donk bets most of the time anyway, usually they are bets from medium strength hands or draws that think they are strong enough to bet hoping to take it down straight away and get a reasonably cheap card, they nearly always call the first raise.

Hand 2 I would fold QJo to the 3 bet almost 100% of the time. You are so often dominated it doesn't bear thinking about.

Excellent post by Duggs.

Thanks Figaroo both points are in my notes now. One under how to make more money and the other under how to save more money.
 
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