Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Sneaky Feet]

Well its actually the opposite, I think AK has a little too much equity against his turn range, but it loses most of it when it bets turn and is called.

No thats not really how it works, A is essentially exogenous for any given bet sizing, and we construct our strategy around it.

well if A is high enough we should bluff everything theoretically. eg, if he folds 90% on the river, to a half pot bet, we should half pot basically every bluff we can, and should turn hands with up to 75% equity into bluffs.

Its obviously a function of our bet sizing and i can go over optimal sizing if you want but the basic EV calcs for bet and check when they fold 90% on the river and we bet half pot

general calc is
EVbluff= foldfreq*P- (P+B)call frequency

where P is pot and B is bet

EVbet=.9*P-.1*1.5P
=.75P

EVcheck= .75P

Dont take that ABC breakdown as gospel btw i havent done the best job of outlining our motivations to bet because i was in a bit of a rush.

Well I thought I understood : ). I'm going to have to read this a few times to really get a grasp of it. Thanks again for your input Duggs it definitely gives me a lot to think about.

Edit

Actually I think I do understand.... AK's equity in this instance is variable depending on how villain plays. If villain bets and the bet is called the AK loses equity for having less outs and odds are further against it on the river. Also villains bet states that they have a hand that they believe will beat ours (bluff or not). If villain checks the turn equity raises because it shows us the villain believes they do not have a hand that will beat ours so we can also assume there is less chance of villain bluffing and has likely not made a hand. AK may be strong enough to win based on how the river falls and on villains potential range.

Maybe?

 

[Sneaky Feet]

33 raise flop all day every day.

QJo fold to a normal sized 3bet, can call this stupidly small one tho. dont donk flop and dont lead turn, i would x/c flop as a default assuming normalish sizing

Forgive me for asking stupid questions but did I donk the flop? Doesn't donk mean to call and lead? Ahh I think I just answered my own question. I didn't realize it was still a donk when I called the raise then lead the flop. I thought that because I initially bet I was no longer able to donk. As a matter of fact I thought the only time you could donk was on the river. Learn something new everyday!

 

[duggs]

Forgive me for asking stupid questions but did I donk the flop? Doesn't donk mean to call and lead? Ahh I think I just answered my own question. I didn't realize it was still a donk when I called the raise then lead the flop. I thought that because I initially bet I was no longer able to donk. As a matter of fact I thought the only time you could donk was on the river. Learn something new everyday!

donking is just another word for leading, it means leading into the one with initative, if can be a singe raised pot, a 3bet pot, a 4 bet or even 5bet pot. all that matters is that you lead into the last aggressor on the following street.

 

[JimmyBrizzy]

Duggs - really like your explanation on the AKo turn situation.

I didn't like the texture of this board at all and I felt a little frustrated that I didn't have a chance to build the pot a bit more. Should I have continued or was checking through the right call?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

Button ($5.97)
SB ($6.91)
BB ($7.57)
UTG ($3.83)
Hero (MP) ($4.09)
CO ($5)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3

, 3

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.15, 3 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) 4

, 8

, 3

(2 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.82) J

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.82) 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $0.82 | Rake: $0.03

Results below:

Spoiler

BB had Q

, 8

(one pair, eights).
Hero had 3

, 3

(three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: Hero won $0.79

Hand 2. Easy fold?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

CO ($5.97)
Button ($6.89)
SB ($7.17)
BB ($3.83)
Hero (UTG) ($4.48)
MP ($5)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q

, J

Hero raises to $0.15, MP raises to $0.35, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.77) K

, J

, 5

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35

Turn: ($1.47) 9

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, MP raises to $4.30 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $2.87 | Rake: $0.12

Results below:

Spoiler

MP didn't show

Just a general comment/observation - try and keep your stack size at 100bb (basically missing value when dropping lower and can lead to awkward SPR depending on how often you add chips). I know I play at Bovada that doesn't have auto top off so I try to add chips whenever I drop below 90bbs (at the very least). I'm pretty sure pokerstars should have an auto top off option.

Hand 1: already mentioned, but you are missing value by not raising on flop.

Hand 2: I may be considered a NIT, but QJo is typically a fold for me UTG. Not sure if you had other reads at the table or if others disagree.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Duggs - really like your explanation on the AKo turn situation.



Just a general comment/observation - try and keep your stack size at 100bb (basically missing value when dropping lower and can lead to awkward SPR depending on how often you add chips). I know I play at Bovada that doesn't have auto top off so I try to add chips whenever I drop below 90bbs (at the very least). I'm pretty sure Pokerstars should have an auto top off option.

Hand 1: already mentioned, but you are missing value by not raising on flop.

Hand 2: I may be considered a NIT, but QJo is typically a fold for me UTG. Not sure if you had other reads at the table or if others disagree.

Stack sizes. Yep good call I will keep my stack at 100 effective. I've been a bit lax on that and shouldn't be.

QJo isn't a fold UTG for me, not to say that's a good thing or bad, but I was interested in the hand because of the weird 3bet size. Again not to say it was good or bad. However not really having a good read on villain and the fact that I had 4bet bluffed him about 10 hands earlier I was even more curious. Which now that I think about it was probably an even better reason to fold in this spot.

 

[John A]

another AK from last night .Villain 14/14/AG67 3Bet 16.7 from 29 hands.
Thought about 4betting preflop and calling a shove as he was aggro but decided to call to keep his weaker Aces KQ, KJ etc

Also though about CRaising flop with 2 overs BDF and BDS (thoughts). Once I called was then priced in on Turn as more outs or maybe should I have shoved the Turn

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.24 (104.8 bb)
BB: $5 (100 bb)
UTG: $3.48 (69.6 bb)
MP: $8.72 (174.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $9.18 (183.6 bb)
BTN: $5.40 (108 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

K

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, BTN folds, SB raises to $0.45, BB folds, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.95) Q

3

6

(2 players)
SB bets $0.68, Hero calls $0.68

Turn: ($2.31) J

(2 players)
SB bets $1.65, Hero calls $1.65

River: ($5.61) 2

(2 players)
SB bets $2.46 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $5.61 pot ($0.23 rake)
Final Board: Q

3

6

J

2

SB mucked and won $5.38 ($2.60 net)
Hero mucked A

K

and lost (-$2.78 net)

I love min 4-betting aggro 3-bet monkey's when they 3-bet a ton out of the blinds. In this case, you don't really know where he's at in terms of that since you have such a small sample. But something to keep in mind.

As played I'm folding the turn. If you had Ah I'm calling. But with gutter, and unclean outs, and stack sizes, I think you need to drop it at that point. If stacks were a little bigger I'd be shoving the turn. But as is, I think you need to give it up at that point.

 

[John A]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

Button ($5.97)
SB ($6.91)
BB ($7.57)
UTG ($3.83)
Hero (MP) ($4.09)
CO ($5)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3

, 3

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.15, 3 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) 4

, 8

, 3

(2 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.82) J

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.82) 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $0.82 | Rake: $0.03

Bet the turn. Why didn't you bet the turn?

Hand 2. Easy fold?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

CO ($5.97)
Button ($6.89)
SB ($7.17)
BB ($3.83)
Hero (UTG) ($4.48)
MP ($5)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q

, J

Hero raises to $0.15, MP raises to $0.35, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.77) K

, J

, 5

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35

Turn: ($1.47) 9

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, MP raises to $4.30 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $2.87 | Rake: $0.12

Results below:

Spoiler

MP didn't show

Fold pre-flop, and then fold again to the 3-bet pre-flop. Two missed folds. As played... turn small value bet, is mmm... for pot control ok. Turn is a c/f.

 

[rhombus]

so confused with this hand especially as 190BBs Deep. He was acting so strong and thought possible flopped set or overpairs most likely QQ or AA

Only 2 hands on Villain 100/0 AG67%

How best to play this hand and what adjustments would you make if only 100bbs deep

Guess his turn bet was to get to cheap showdown

poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.01 (100.2 bb)
BB: $11.21 (224.2 bb)
UTG: $5 (100 bb)
MP: $9.88 (197.6 bb)
Hero (CO): $9.11 (182.2 bb)
BTN: $10.81 (216.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

K

UTG folds, MP calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.25, 3 folds, MP calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.57) 5

9

4

(2 players)
MP bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.60, MP raises to $1.05, Hero calls $0.45

Turn: ($2.67) T

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.45, MP raises to $2.90, Hero calls $1.45

River: ($8.47) 3

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Results: $8.47 pot ($0.35 rake)
Final Board: 5

9

4

T

3

MP showed 9

A

and lost (-$4.20 net)
Hero showed K

K

and won $8.12 ($3.92 net)

 

[duggs]

so confused with this hand especially as 190BBs Deep. He was acting so strong and thought possible flopped set or overpairs most likely QQ or AA

Only 2 hands on Villain 100/0 AG67%

How best to play this hand and what adjustments would you make if only 100bbs deep

Guess his turn bet was to get to cheap showdown

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.01 (100.2 bb)
BB: $11.21 (224.2 bb)
UTG: $5 (100 bb)
MP: $9.88 (197.6 bb)
Hero (CO): $9.11 (182.2 bb)
BTN: $10.81 (216.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

K

UTG folds, MP calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.25, 3 folds, MP calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.57) 5

9

4

(2 players)
MP bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.60, MP raises to $1.05, Hero calls $0.45

Turn: ($2.67) T

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.45, MP raises to $2.90, Hero calls $1.45

River: ($8.47) 3

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Results: $8.47 pot ($0.35 rake)
Final Board: 5

9

4

T

3

MP showed 9

A

and lost (-$4.20 net)
Hero showed K

K

and won $8.12 ($3.92 net)

villain is a fish, good players dont limp/call pre, make your flop raise bigger and keep shovelling money in on the flop, same thing on the turn, we want to get stacks in because we have great equity v this line.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Two short stacks and a flush draw? Should I have been more aggressive on the turn? I feel like I may have lost initiative.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($5)
BB ($3.69)
UTG ($6.52)
Hero (MP) ($5.64)
CO ($2.72)
Button ($8.29)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

, Q

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.15, CO calls $0.15, 2 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.47) K

, 3

, 7

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($0.47) 6

(3 players)
BB bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold

River: ($1.07) 9

(2 players)
BB bets $0.85, Hero folds

Total pot: $1.07 | Rake: $0.04

Results below:

Spoiler

BB didn't show

 

[Sneaky Feet]

I knew I was being squeezed here but wasn't sure of villains range. Was this a good place to fold? First time that I've been in this situation

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

MP ($5.10)
Button ($5)
Hero (SB) ($5.36)
BB ($11.19)
UTG ($2.26)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8

, 8

1 fold, MP raises to $0.12, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, BB raises to $0.60, 2 folds

Total pot: $0.36 | Rake: $0

Results below:

Spoiler

BB didn't show

Damn short stacks!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (4 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

BB ($5)
Hero (UTG) ($10.65)
Button ($9.18)
SB ($1.73)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, A

Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, SB raises to $1.73 (All-In), Hero calls $0.48

Flop: ($3.51) Q

, 10

, 3

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($3.51) 2

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($3.51) 7

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.51 | Rake: $0.15

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had A

, A

(one pair, Aces).
Hero had K

, A

(high card, Ace).
Outcome: SB won $3.36

 

[ph0n3_j4ck]

Hey guys, I play online regularly. If anyone apart of this group wants to sweat me, PM me your skype. I'd love to share some of what I know and learn some what of you guys know!

 

[duggs]

both look good sneaky

 

[Figaroo2]

both look good sneaky

I agree
Nothing wrong with folding 88 there.
The AK, against a short stack once you have any reasonable amount of his stack in pre just call it off with AKs. they will be shoving 99+ most of the time you jat ran into the top of his range.

 

[rhombus]

Know Im going over old ground but still struggling with hands when flopping top pair top kicker. Need to get a good balance between getting maximum value when they have a good 2nd hand and not over committing when crushed.

Overall do I need to focus on SPR on FLop IP/OOP, how aggro villain is (how many hands before AG% is useful) also W$WSF how many hands and how do I use ??

Looking back at the hands

Hand1 Villain Stats 36/21 AG%18 29 hands

Not sure what I could have done when they raised the turn after I had picked up more equity with the flush draw. If the turn would have been 8 clubs instead would it have been good to check turn and bet River maybe?? or even Bet and maybe fold to Rasie as villain AG% only 18% seems too nitty

Hand 2 and 3 was against short stacks so mistakes not as bad.
Hand2 Villain Stats 25/13 AG 100% only 9 hands
When Villain CR flop do you automatically go into showdown modeor maybe fold when they bet Turn if they were full stacked
Hand 3 Villain Stats 60/20 AG 17% only 5 hands
Again against shortsatcked so dont think to bad especially when they bet river as its less than 1/2 Pot. If Villain was full stacked how different would you play itHand1
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $5 (100 bb)
BB: $5.44 (108.8 bb)
Hero (UTG): $5.96 (119.2 bb)
MP: $5.07 (101.4 bb)
CO: $5 (100 bb)
BTN: $5.04 (100.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

Q

Hero raises to $0.15, MP calls $0.15, CO folds, BTN calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.52) Q

7

5

(3 players)
Hero bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35, BTN folds

Turn: ($1.22) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.85, MP raises to $2.28, Hero raises to $3.71, MP raises to $4.57 and is all-in, Hero calls $0.86

River: ($10.36) 8

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $10.36 pot ($0.43 rake)
Final Board: Q

7

5

8

8

Hero showed A

Q

and lost (-$5.07 net)
MP showed 7

7

and won $9.93 ($4.86 net)

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $6.41 (128.2 bb)
BB: $2.75 (55 bb)
Hero (UTG): $5 (100 bb)
MP: $7.48 (149.6 bb)
CO: $1.24 (24.8 bb)
BTN: $14.77 (295.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J

A

Hero raises to $0.15, 4 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) 2

J

6

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, BB raises to $0.55, Hero calls $0.35

Turn: ($1.42) 9

(2 players)
BB bets $0.80, Hero raises to $2.28, BB calls $1.25 and is all-in

River: ($5.52) K

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $5.52 pot ($0.23 rake)
Final Board: 2

J

6

9

K

BB showed 6

6

and won $5.29 ($2.54 net)
Hero showed J

A

and won $0.00 (-$2.75 net)

Hand3
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $2.63 (52.6 bb)
BB: $2.54 (50.8 bb)
UTG: $5.20 (104 bb)
MP: $5 (100 bb)
Hero (CO): $5.39 (107.8 bb)
BTN: $4.92 (98.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

K

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, BTN calls $0.15, SB folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.47) K

2

2

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.25, BTN folds, BB calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.97) 8

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.70, BB calls $0.70

River: ($2.37) 8

(2 players)
BB bets $1.13, Hero raises to $2.26, BB calls $0.31 and is all-in

Results: $5.25 pot ($0.22 rake)
Final Board: K

2

2

8

8

BB showed A

2

and won $5.03 ($2.49 net)
Hero showed A

K

and won $0.00 (-$2.54 net)

 

[rhombus]

I agree
Nothing wrong with folding 88 there.
The AK, against a short stack once you have any reasonable amount of his stack in pre just call it off with AKs. they will be shoving 99+ most of the time you jat ran into the top of his range.

+1 Id only call 88 if very deep maybe if getting 20/1 on the call i.e. once they bet you have to call 50c so need Effective stacks about $10

AK eay call against shorty they could easily be on tilt and spewing with alot of weaker Ace hands

 

[Figaroo2]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $31.47 (157.4 bb)
BB: $61.27 (306.4 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $20 (100 bb)
MP1: $37.80 (189 bb)
MP2: $12.26 (61.3 bb)
MP3: $20 (100 bb)
CO: $22.02 (110.1 bb) 16/3 in 38 hands looks weak
BTN: $8.68 (43.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T:spade: T:heart:
Hero raises to $0.70, 3 folds, CO calls $0.70, 3 folds

Flop: ($1.70) 6:club: 8:diamond: 4:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.85, CO calls $0.85

Turn: ($3.40) 5:diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.30, Hero raises to $4.60

John was advocating this for getting to a cheaper showdown, any comments, it kind of feels like betting to find out where we are but keeping ourselves aggressive with it.


Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

Hero (SB): $15.24 (152.4 bb)
BB: $18.38 (183.8 bb)
MP1: $8.78 (87.8 bb)
MP2: $10.71 (107.1 bb)
MP3: $18.78 (187.8 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb) tight reg 12/8 355 hands
BTN: $12.78 (127.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J:spade: J:heart:
MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.50, BTN folds, Hero calls $0.45, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.20) 4:diamond: 3:diamond: 2:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.80) 2:heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.40, Hero raises to $2.80, CO calls $1.40

River: ($8.40) 9:club: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5.90 and is all-in,
Hero folds
Pretty sure now he;s been tested this is a straight foreward fold

 

[rhombus]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $31.47 (157.4 bb)
BB: $61.27 (306.4 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $20 (100 bb)
MP1: $37.80 (189 bb)
MP2: $12.26 (61.3 bb)
MP3: $20 (100 bb)
CO: $22.02 (110.1 bb) 16/3 in 38 hands looks weak
BTN: $8.68 (43.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T♠ T♥
Hero raises to $0.70, 3 folds, CO calls $0.70, 3 folds

Flop: ($1.70) 6♣ 8♦ 4♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.85, CO calls $0.85

Turn: ($3.40) 5♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.30, Hero raises to $4.60

John was advocating this for getting to a cheaper showdown, any comments, it kind of feels like betting to find out where we are but keeping ourselves aggressive with it.


Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

Hero (SB): $15.24 (152.4 bb)
BB: $18.38 (183.8 bb)
MP1: $8.78 (87.8 bb)
MP2: $10.71 (107.1 bb)
MP3: $18.78 (187.8 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb) tight reg 12/8 355 hands
BTN: $12.78 (127.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J♠ J♥
MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.50, BTN folds, Hero calls $0.45, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.20) 4♦ 3♦ 2♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.80) 2♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.40, Hero raises to $2.80, CO calls $1.40

River: ($8.40) 9♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5.90 and is all-in,
Hero folds
Pretty sure now he;s been tested this is a straight foreward fold

Hand 1 dont think I would have raised turn. Guess you was Bet/Folding as villain has a lot of straights/set/2 pair hands

Hand 2
As they are so tight that takes out the A2 hands which alot of fishies will call preflop.

Where I'd struggle with this hand is when Villains all in is 70% of pot. At what % do u Call/Fold

Also what hands do you put them on I'd say flopped set or 99 makes most sense or maybe bluff AK, AQ diamonds or TT, QQ, KK, AA cant see 66 or 77

As is alot more value hands than bluffs is the key

 

[rhombus]

based on the top pair top kicker hands I posted earlier on the flop charts it says when raised
Reraise Top 2 Pair +
Call 2 Pair (not top2) Flush Draw + Overcards and Open End Straight Draw
Fold All other Hands so Top Pair Top Kicker is this abit nitty

Also Bet 3/4 Pot - is this the standard CBet size as you mentioned 1/2 - 2/3 with 2nd or 3rd Pair, GS, 2OCs, on Dry Boards and 1/2 for Whiffed Boards on unco-ordinated board when villain checks

 

[duggs]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $31.47 (157.4 bb)
BB: $61.27 (306.4 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $20 (100 bb)
MP1: $37.80 (189 bb)
MP2: $12.26 (61.3 bb)
MP3: $20 (100 bb)
CO: $22.02 (110.1 bb) 16/3 in 38 hands looks weak
BTN: $8.68 (43.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T<font color='black'>♠</font> T<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero raises to $0.70, 3 folds, CO calls $0.70, 3 folds

Flop: ($1.70) 6<font color='black'>♣</font> 8<font color='red'>♦</font> 4<font color='black'>♠</font> (2 players)
Hero bets $0.85, CO calls $0.85

Turn: ($3.40) 5<font color='red'>♦</font> (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.30, Hero raises to $4.60

John was advocating this for getting to a cheaper showdown, any comments, it kind of feels like betting to find out where we are but keeping ourselves aggressive with it.


Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

Hero (SB): $15.24 (152.4 bb)
BB: $18.38 (183.8 bb)
MP1: $8.78 (87.8 bb)
MP2: $10.71 (107.1 bb)
MP3: $18.78 (187.8 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb) tight reg 12/8 355 hands
BTN: $12.78 (127.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J<font color='black'>♠</font> J<font color='red'>♥</font>
MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.50, BTN folds, Hero calls $0.45, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.20) 4<font color='red'>♦</font> 3<font color='red'>♦</font> 2<font color='black'>♠</font> (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.80) 2<font color='red'>♥</font> (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.40, Hero raises to $2.80, CO calls $1.40

River: ($8.40) 9<font color='black'>♣</font> (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5.90 and is all-in,
Hero folds
Pretty sure now he;s been tested this is a straight foreward fold

TT: He has far more 7x in his range than you, i dont understand how minraising the turn helps us reach showdown???

JJ: why are we raising turn? its clearly a PvBC situation. theres no reason we cant just call turn/fold river, or fold turn, or call twice. I prefer all of them over minraise check/fold.

personally Id just call turn fold river.

 

[rhombus]

noticed this a few times. Seems they have big over pair QQ, KK, AA hoping to catch a fish with 77-TT etc or maybe blast out a flush draw, but even when no flush draws on it happens.
villain 19/14 AG36%

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.57 (111.4 bb)
BB: $16.33 (326.6 bb)
UTG: $5.33 (106.6 bb)
MP: $18.80 (376 bb)
CO: $6.68 (133.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $6.70 (134 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K

A

2 folds, CO raises to $0.12, Hero raises to $0.35, SB raises to $1.05, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.27) 7

5

7

(2 players)
SB bets $4.52, Hero folds

Results: $2.27 pot ($0.09 rake)
Final Board: 7

5

7

SB mucked and won $2.18 ($1.13 net)
Hero mucked K

A

and lost (-$1.05 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

TT: He has far more 7x in his range than you, i dont understand how minraising the turn helps us reach showdown???
JJ: why are we raising turn? its clearly a PvBC situation. theres no reason we cant just call turn/fold river, or fold turn, or call twice. I prefer all of them over minraise check/fold. personally Id just call turn fold river.

hhmmmm Polar Versus Bluff-catchers
That is why I posted these hands, I've only studied a bit of GTO, I don't fully understand these spots against players of different VPIP.
So how often do we call the turn and call the river if for example no overcards come in against a villain as tight as 12/8
Presumably someone like this virtually never bluffs so we just give up if he fires the river?

In the last hand the turn min raise costs us $1.40 here. If we had just call the turn the pot is $5.60,
On the end even if he only half pots its going to cost us a lot more than $1.40 to find out if we are good

 

[John A]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $31.47 (157.4 bb)
BB: $61.27 (306.4 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $20 (100 bb)
MP1: $37.80 (189 bb)
MP2: $12.26 (61.3 bb)
MP3: $20 (100 bb)
CO: $22.02 (110.1 bb) 16/3 in 38 hands looks weak
BTN: $8.68 (43.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T♠ T♥
Hero raises to $0.70, 3 folds, CO calls $0.70, 3 folds

Flop: ($1.70) 6♣ 8♦ 4♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.85, CO calls $0.85

Turn: ($3.40) 5♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.30, Hero raises to $4.60

John was advocating this for getting to a cheaper showdown, any comments, it kind of feels like betting to find out where we are but keeping ourselves aggressive with it.

No.... wrong spot. Not on a highly coordinated board OOP. Here, you're just turning your hand into a bluff OOP. When I've mentioned this, I'm mainly speaking about IP play with hands that are borderline EV against opponents you don't think you have enough info on. This way you're controlling the pot, getting a cheaper showdown, and not trying to guess about their barrel frequencies on the river.

I think we'd all like to believe that we'll have perfect ranges on someone w/o info, and we'll know how often they will do X, and we can just call down in marginal spots. But the reality is, if anyone looks at their neutral EV turn spots, then tend to be -EV by the river because they aren't making the fold when they should or the call when they should. Meaning, their not as good as their ego wants them to think they are.

The min raising the turn play is not something you should be doing very often. Hopefully you have reads / stats and know what you're doing by the time you get to the turn. But it's something that is more effective then guessing on the river... or as pro players would say, "I'm putting them on the perfect range, and making the perfect call every time." lol yeah. Then why you posting that hand my 100nl hommie friend?

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

Hero (SB): $15.24 (152.4 bb)
BB: $18.38 (183.8 bb)
MP1: $8.78 (87.8 bb)
MP2: $10.71 (107.1 bb)
MP3: $18.78 (187.8 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb) tight reg 12/8 355 hands
BTN: $12.78 (127.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J♠ J♥
MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.50, BTN folds, Hero calls $0.45, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.20) 4♦ 3♦ 2♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.80) 2♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.40, Hero raises to $2.80, CO calls $1.40

River: ($8.40) 9♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5.90 and is all-in,
Hero folds
Pretty sure now he;s been tested this is a straight foreward fold

Yeah, I'm not sure what you're doing here. Just bet the turn. or go c/c c/c. Why check min raise and then fold? If you're check min raising there, then you should be c/cing the river a lot.

 

[duggs]

hhmmmm Polar Versus Bluff-catchers
That is why I posted these hands, I've only studied a bit of GTO, I don't fully understand these spots against players of different VPIP.
So how often do we call the turn and call the river if for example no overcards come in against a villain as tight as 12/8
Presumably someone like this virtually never bluffs so we just give up if he fires the river?

In the last hand the turn min raise costs us $1.40 here. If we had just call the turn the pot is $5.60,
On the end even if he only half pots its going to cost us a lot more than $1.40 to find out if we are good

yes except when we call down he puts more money in when you are good are he puts in more money bad, if you raise he only puts more money into the pot when you are dead.

the point of PvBC is the polar range should do all the betting. raising a BC just allows him to fold all his bluffs and get extra value with his nut combos.

 

[duggs]

I think we'd all like to believe that we'll have perfect ranges on someone w/o info, and we'll know how often they will do X, and we can just call down in marginal spots. But the reality is, if anyone looks at their neutral EV turn spots, then tend to be -EV by the river because they aren't making the fold when they should or the call when they should. Meaning, their not as good as their ego wants them to think they are.

The min raising the turn play is not something you should be doing very often. Hopefully you have reads / stats and know what you're doing by the time you get to the turn. But it's something that is more effective then guessing on the river... or as pro players would say, "I'm putting them on the perfect range, and making the perfect call every time." lol yeah. Then why you posting that hand my 100nl hommie friend?

Isnt Bolded the textbook example of when to have an unexploitable calling range? We call river enough that he cant autoprofit with bluffs but no more (or if his range is strong enough and he bets big enough, always fold.)

Regarding Italics, doesnt that just mean we are overestimating ourselves on the turn and should fold turn more? BC capture less than their pure equity in the pot (even accounting for positional advantages) Bluff essentially break even at equilibruim and value hands capture more than their equity in the pot, so shouldnt we just fold more turns?

The only reason i can ever see raising turn to be super effective is if a few conditions are met

a) we can get value from some hand
b) he jams better
c) it allows us to valuebet at least some runouts by virtue of him capping himself.

Its the same basic concept of 3b/folding QQ v someone who folds to 3bets 30% but only 4bets a 2% range.