Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[or3o1990]

Couple of quizzes for you all
from Splitsuit
https://redchippoker.typeform.com/to/cp3Giz?mc_cid=3fb653567d&mc_eid=b05ef2df5b

from Jonathan Little
http://cashgameiq.com/quiz.php

Cool quizzes rhombus. I didn't like the first one as much because there were no reads. Cash games are all about reads. I got a 79 on the first one and a 96 on Jonathan Little's. How did you fare?

 

[rhombus]

Cool quizzes rhombus. I didn't like the first one as much because there were no reads. Cash games are all about reads. I got a 79 on the first one and a 96 on Jonathan Little's. How did you fare?

80 on 1st (includes couple of educated guesses) and 86 on jonathan little (1st and last question got wrong)

Theres a report for the 1st quiz which shows what most people go for - Some strange answers on the report based on highest percentage.

https://redchippoker.typeform.com/report/cp3Giz/bshz

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Good morning all. Another study day for me and still focusing on 3betting but now on being out of position against a 3bet. Here's a quoted portion of page 132 that I have a question about

"You're going to want to turn some of the bottom of your folding range into 4-bet bluffs so that you can make up for the times you're being 3-bet and have to fold. Calling with this range, you're going to be folding roughly 70% of the time, so you'll need to mix in some 4-bet bluffs to make up for the times you're abandoning your equity. The other options are that you call with some of your suited connectors a higher percentage of the time, and bluff shove when you hit some piece of the flop, which is going to be a much higher variance strategy, but can still be effective."

What do we consider being a "piece of the flop"? Top pair +, OESD and FD?

 

[rhombus]

hope running bad isnt contagious as we all seem to be all having abit of bad luck
2 biggest losers from last night

Hand 1
I bet 1.95 on turn he shoved 3.27 with 9J and he hit 7 on river

Hand 2 If we had been full stacked then think I made a mistake by betting turn, or maybe turn ok but should have folded to the raise. As it was dont think I could have folded when he raised as he could have had alot of pairs 66 77 88 99 TT JJ etc with maybe a club

poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5 (100 bb)
BB: $4.93 (98.6 bb)
UTG: $7.68 (153.6 bb)
MP: $2.46 (49.2 bb)
Hero (CO): $6.01 (120.2 bb)
BTN: $3.37 (67.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

Q

UTG folds, MP calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, BTN calls $0.20, 2 folds, MP calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.67) 2

3

5

(3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, MP folds

Turn: ($1.37) 5

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.95, BTN raises to $2.82 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.87

River: ($7.01) 4

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $7.01 pot ($0.29 rake)
Final Board: 2

3

5

5

4

Hero showed Q

Q

and lost (-$3.37 net)
BTN showed A

4

and won $6.72 ($3.35 net)

 

[or3o1990]

hope running bad isnt contagious as we all seem to be all having abit of bad luck
2 biggest losers from last night

Hand 1
I bet 1.95 on turn he shoved 3.27 with 9J and he hit 7 on river

Hand 2 If we had been full stacked then think I made a mistake by betting turn, or maybe turn ok but should have folded to the raise. As it was dont think I could have folded when he raised as he could have had alot of pairs 66 77 88 99 TT JJ etc with maybe a club

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5 (100 bb)
BB: $4.93 (98.6 bb)
UTG: $7.68 (153.6 bb)
MP: $2.46 (49.2 bb)
Hero (CO): $6.01 (120.2 bb)
BTN: $3.37 (67.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

Q

UTG folds, MP calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, BTN calls $0.20, 2 folds, MP calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.67) 2

3

5

(3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, MP folds

Turn: ($1.37) 5

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.95, BTN raises to $2.82 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.87

River: ($7.01) 4

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $7.01 pot ($0.29 rake)
Final Board: 2

3

5

5

4

Hero showed Q

Q

and lost (-$3.37 net)
BTN showed A

4

and won $6.72 ($3.35 net)

I sure hope it's not contagious lol! It sucks the worst when its the short stacks. You loose less but there's never any getting away from it.


Anyone have some input on playing AK in 3bet pots? How often are we obligated to float? Certainly calling and folding on the flop is a disaster in the long term?

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♠ A♦

fold, fold, fold, fold, MP+2 raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 6 BB, fold, SB raises to 16 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 10 BB

Flop: (35 BB, 2 players) 8♠ 7♣ J♥
SB bets 19 BB, fold

SB wins 33.25 BB


I misplayed this AK, I should have 4bet and GII as the 3bettor was kind of agg. Then later I misplayed AK in the opposite direction not wanting to get put into the same spot. I 4bet a tighter player who 3bet me from the btn and he shoved and I called it off. He had KK. Which brings me to my next question which seems obvious but can we ever 4bet fold AK? I assume not, just don't 4bet the nits with it right?

Here's a 11 min video from the early part of my session. It's mostly just standard stuff. I wanted to share because I found this free software for recording your computer screen called Open Broadcast Software and I think it could be a very useful tool for all of us to be using for review and whatnot. Let me know what you guys think.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8iIc-tdEStvLXdhUlJ5aVpiWVE/view?usp=sharing

 

[rhombus]

oops I forgot to post the AA hand when they hit the 7

Regarding AK, think Ill leave it to the experts its my biggest losing hand at both 2nl zoom for 40K hands(AKs) and for 30K hands at 5nl Zoom (AKo)

I must be doing something really wrong

 

[Figaroo2]

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $10.27 (102.7 bb)
BB: $8.58 (85.8 bb)
UTG+2: $21.13 (211.3 bb)
MP1: $11.15 (111.5 bb)
MP2: $10.14 (101.4 bb)- VPIP: 17, PFR: 10, 3B: 4, AF: 1.2, Hands: 184
Hero (MP3): $10 (100 bb)
CO: $14.26 (142.6 bb)
BTN: $6.79 (67.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K:heart: K:club:
2 folds, MP2 raises to $0.27, Hero raises to $0.96, 4 folds, MP2 calls $0.69

Flop: ($2.07) K:spade: 8:club: J:spade: (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $1.48, MP2 calls $1.48

Turn: ($5.03) 6:diamond: (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $2.90, MP2 calls $2.90

River: ($10.83) A:spade: (2 players)
MP2 bets $4.80 and is all-in, Hero calls $4.66 and is all-in

Results: $20.15 pot ($0.91 rake)
Final Board: K:spade: 8:club: J:spade: 6:diamond: A:spade:
MP2 showed Q:spade: T:spade: and won $19.24 ($9.24 net)
Hero mucked K:heart: K:club: and lost (-$10 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $10 (100 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb) - VPIP: 38, PFR: 25, 3B: 0, AF: 0.3, Hands: 8
UTG: $9.77 (97.7 bb)
MP: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $4.70 (47 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J:spade: J:heart:
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.60) A:club: J:club: A:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, BB calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.60) K:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $1.53, BB calls $1.53

River: ($4.66) 5:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $7.67 and is all-in, BB calls $7.67 and is all-in

Results: $20 pot ($0.90 rake)
Final Board: A:club: J:club: A:heart: K:diamond: 5:spade:
Hero showed J:spade: J:heart: and won $19.10 ($9.10 net)
BB mucked 8:heart: K:heart: and lost (-$10 net)

 

[rhombus]

I misplayed this AK, I should have 4bet and GII as the 3bettor was kind of agg. Then later I misplayed AK in the opposite direction not wanting to get put into the same spot. I 4bet a tighter player who 3bet me from the btn and he shoved and I called it off. He had KK. Which brings me to my next question which seems obvious but can we ever 4bet fold AK? I assume not, just don't 4bet the nits with it right?

Think it depends how deep and aggression of villain, if 100bb against Nit
Nits Range AK, QQ, KK, AA

If you 4Bet 23 and fold you lose -23

With AKo vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 39/61
If you call (123 * 0.39) - (77 * 0.61) = 1 BBs

With AKs vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 42/58
If you call (123 * 0.42) - (77 * 0.58) = 7 BBs

If you narrow range down to QQ, KK, AA
With AKo vs QQ, KK, AA you are 39/61
If you call ($123 * 0.31) - ($77 * 0.69) = $-15

With AKs vs QQ, KK, AA you are 42/58
If you call (123 * 0.35) - (77 * 0.65) = -7 BBs

If you narrow further down to KK, AA
With AKo vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 39/61
If you call (123 * 0.185) - (77 * 0.815) = -40 BBs

With AKs vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 42/58
If you call (123 * 0.23) - (77 * 0.77) = -31 BBs

so if my maths is correct if 100BB unless you put him on only KK and AA then its a call

 

[Figaroo2]

Shouldn't really be losing with AK

You must be overplaying AK postflop, its still only A high if you miss the flop,

 

[rhombus]

Juist noticed i didnt edit the formulas properly bolded the edits

Think it depends how deep and aggression of villain, if 100bb against Nit
Nits Range AK, QQ, KK, AA

If you 4Bet 23 and fold you lose -23

With AKo vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 39/61
If you call (123 * 0.39) - (77 * 0.61) = 1 BBs

With AKs vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 42/58
If you call (123 * 0.42) - (77 * 0.58) = 7 BBs

If you narrow range down to QQ, KK, AA
With AKo vs QQ, KK, AA you are 31/69
If you call ($123 * 0.31) - ($77 * 0.69) = $-15

With AKs vs QQ, KK, AA you are 35/65
If you call (123 * 0.35) - (77 * 0.65) = -7 BBs

If you narrow further down to KK, AA
With AKo vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 18.5/81.5
If you call (123 * 0.185) - (77 * 0.815) = -40 BBs

With AKs vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 23/77
If you call (123 * 0.23) - (77 * 0.77) = -31 BBs

so if my maths is correct if 100BB unless you put him on only KK and AA then its a call

 

[or3o1990]

Think it depends how deep and aggression of villain, if 100bb against Nit
Nits Range AK, QQ, KK, AA

If you 4Bet 23 and fold you lose -23

With AKo vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 39/61
If you call (123 * 0.39) - (77 * 0.61) = 1 BBs

With AKs vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 42/58
If you call (123 * 0.42) - (77 * 0.58) = 7 BBs

If you narrow range down to QQ, KK, AA
With AKo vs QQ, KK, AA you are 39/61
If you call ($123 * 0.31) - ($77 * 0.69) = $-15

With AKs vs QQ, KK, AA you are 42/58
If you call (123 * 0.35) - (77 * 0.65) = -7 BBs

If you narrow further down to KK, AA
With AKo vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 39/61
If you call (123 * 0.185) - (77 * 0.815) = -40 BBs

With AKs vs AK, QQ, KK, AA you are 42/58
If you call (123 * 0.23) - (77 * 0.77) = -31 BBs

so if my maths is correct if 100BB unless you put him on only KK and AA then its a call

How are you getting these stats? Is this including card removal too? Because that was in my mind when I GII vs the KK. It's harder for him to have those hands because of my blockers. But not everyone is getting it in pre with QQ either so it's kind of read dependent I guess.

 

[rhombus]

You must be overplaying AK postflop, its still only A high if you miss the flop,

maybe preflop where the main damage is done Q not to good either LOL

1st pic is 2nl zoom AIPF 40K hands
2nd pic is 5nl zoom AIPF 30K hands

 

[rhombus]

How are you getting these stats? Is this including card removal too? Because that was in my mind when I GII vs the KK. It's harder for him to have those hands because of my blockers. But not everyone is getting it in pre with QQ either so it's kind of read dependent I guess.

used PPT for the stats, does ppt take card removal in to effect

 

[rhombus]

just looked at my AIPF for QQ at 2nl
In 8 hands
3 times v AA
3 times v KK
Once v JJ
Once vs TJo

at 5nl Ive had 7 hands AIPF
2 times vs AA
4 times vs KK
Once vs AKo

One other hand vs AQo but he only had 25bbs

Moral of the Story fold Preflop vs a Shove at Zoom

 

[or3o1990]

used PPT for the stats, does ppt take card removal in to effect

I would imagine that it does. Thanks for running the equities for me. I need to work on playing in 3bet pots. Without a legitimate read I hate playing unpaired cards in them, especially OOP.

 

[rhombus]

I would imagine that it does. Thanks for running the equities for me. I need to work on playing in 3bet pots. Without a legitimate read I hate playing unpaired cards in them, especially OOP.

Think it does because when I actually put the suits in i.e. AsKs insteadof AxKx it gave same answers on PPT and Equilab.

Due to me getting stuffed with QQ I ran the some more equities and looks like QQ is definitley a fold in ZOOM against a shove unless against a maniac

Even against TT+ you are only 52.37% so with rake taken out its a loser and looking at the averages against the 5 ranges only KK is +EV and only marginal 51.67%

 

[rhombus]

I know there were going to be restrictions but just noticed when I went into settings it says at the bottom

** only the first three ranges will be used when the pokerstars Client is open

Im assuming that just means the color ranges, i.e. in the attached pic it will just ignore the 4th one (more than 24.8)

 

[duggs]

How is KK marginally +EV? is this against an open shove or a 5bet shove?

 

[rhombus]

How is KK marginally +EV? is this against an open shove or a 5bet shove?

It was in reply to or3o1990 when I posted some EV equations when we 4Bet 23BBs against a NIT and they 5 Bet Shoved

The Evs are against the 5 different ranges https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...er-vol-i-study-group-227214/post-2774830.html, the average is just the average against those ranges

So the marginal 51.67 is just the average of 65.97, 62.60, 57.19, 49.99, 22.61.

Admittedly the 22.61 which is against KK and AA probably skews the figures slightly

 

[duggs]

51% isnt marginal, with 77bb calling into a pot of 200

only need approx 38% to break even.

 

[rhombus]

51% isnt marginal, with 77bb calling into a pot of 200

only need approx 38% to break even.

marginal was just referring in general to the hand matchups chart I posted i.e. over 50%

Obviously when you have already invested 23 and any blinds then its an EV call

(123 * 0.51) - (77 * 0.49) = 25 BBs

and as you said Breakeven needed 77 / (123 + 77) = 0.385

Also original post https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...er-vol-i-study-group-227214/post-2774585.html was Just referring to EVs for AK against NITs range, I added the JJ, QQ and KK in our ranges for extra info as I was getting smahed when holding QQ

 

[or3o1990]

I already knew the answer but thanks for confirming it gents.. I can't 4bet fold AK although I might not be happy about it. I have a bad habit of letting one hand in a session affect the way I play a similar scenario later in a session. Usually when I get put in a spot I don't like and I'm trying to avoid being in that spot again..

This spot yesterday sucked. When the button min bet and called my 3bet I percieve his range as quite strong. AQ, JJ+ maybe some smaller pairs, idk. I don't really think he has QJ often but he seemed happy about the turn that's for sure. I wasn't sure what to make of his shove but the fact that with the board paired a lot of my outs might not be good and agaisnt any flopped sets I was drawing near dead. I ended up timing out but it was a really tough one.

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 170.4 BB (VPIP: 19.35, PFR: 16.13, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 31)
Hero (SB): 112.2 BB
BB: 135.3 BB (VPIP: 17.86, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
UTG: 96 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
UTG+1: 75.95 BB (VPIP: 16.13, PFR: 3.23, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
MP: 99.5 BB (VPIP: 6.45, PFR: 6.45, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
CO: 29.47 BB (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 30)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♣ T♣

fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 7 BB, fold, BTN calls 5 BB

Flop: (15 BB, 2 players) Q♣ 2♠ J♣
Hero bets 9 BB, BTN calls 9 BB

Turn: (33 BB, 2 players) Q♦
Hero bets 18.5 BB, BTN raises to 154.4 BB and is all-in, fold

BTN wins 67 BB

 

[John A]

I know there were going to be restrictions but just noticed when I went into settings it says at the bottom

** only the first three ranges will be used when the pokerstars Client is open

Im assuming that just means the color ranges, i.e. in the attached pic it will just ignore the 4th one (more than 24.8)

Yeah, it's limited to 3 colors now in HUDs poker pokerstars.

fyi, if you use the bovada card catcher, there's an update where it doesn't use the pokerstars format anymore. So you're not limited with colors, or notes, etc...

 

[John A]

I already knew the answer but thanks for confirming it gents.. I can't 4bet fold AK although I might not be happy about it. I have a bad habit of letting one hand in a session affect the way I play a similar scenario later in a session. Usually when I get put in a spot I don't like and I'm trying to avoid being in that spot again..

This spot yesterday sucked. When the button min bet and called my 3bet I percieve his range as quite strong. AQ, JJ+ maybe some smaller pairs, idk. I don't really think he has QJ often but he seemed happy about the turn that's for sure. I wasn't sure what to make of his shove but the fact that with the board paired a lot of my outs might not be good and agaisnt any flopped sets I was drawing near dead. I ended up timing out but it was a really tough one.

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 170.4 BB (VPIP: 19.35, PFR: 16.13, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 31)
Hero (SB): 112.2 BB
BB: 135.3 BB (VPIP: 17.86, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
UTG: 96 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
UTG+1: 75.95 BB (VPIP: 16.13, PFR: 3.23, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
MP: 99.5 BB (VPIP: 6.45, PFR: 6.45, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
CO: 29.47 BB (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 30)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♣ T♣

fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 7 BB, fold, BTN calls 5 BB

Flop: (15 BB, 2 players) Q♣ 2♠ J♣
Hero bets 9 BB, BTN calls 9 BB

Turn: (33 BB, 2 players) Q♦
Hero bets 18.5 BB, BTN raises to 154.4 BB and is all-in, fold

BTN wins 67 BB

Mmmm... I wouldn't perceive his range to be strong. He min bet and called a small 3-bet in position 112 bbs deep. His range is pretty darn wide.

When I get min opened on the button, I either 3-bet large or call if I'm playing the hand. I don't allow them to get what they want, which is a cheap 3-bet pot or a cheap blind steal. You have to realize you're likely against someone who is going to willing to mix it up with those stats at FR.

And he obv wasn't that strong if he's shoving on the turned Q there. I doubt after 30 hands he's trying to level you either. I think you played it fine. I don't mind a turn c/c... and against as weaker player I also don't mind a flop CR. But bet/bet is fine. I'd focus on the pre-flop decision and read a little more first. Look at your opponents stats compared to the rest of the table (even though it's only 30 hands).