Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

[ScottishMatt]

stacking bottom set is lolbad in PLO unless youre stacking it vs an aggro fish. calling a 3b pre OOP w Q448r is even worse. so yeah, what id do as villain? fold pre.

EDIT: and thats a HUGE statement coming from me lol

You . . . you . . . fold pre

Sick hand, Matt.

 

[DunningKruger]

stacking bottom set is lolbad in PLO unless youre stacking it vs an aggro fish. calling a 3b pre OOP w Q448r is even worse. so yeah, what id do as villain? fold pre.

EDIT: and thats a HUGE statement coming from me lol

I said post though. Clearly preflop was horrible but IMO one dumb move doesn't justify making more dumb moves subsequently. Flopping sets after a raise and a pot sized reraise when you weren't even full to begin with and then ~not~ getting it in oop on Q94 is monumentally bad here. The reason we're miles apart on this could be that you're making very general statements and I'm considering the specific circumstances of the hand. This game is by all accounts full of more fish than the Baltic sea.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Dammit DK, taking the 1k limelight in my thread. Naw it's cool, you deserve it. (And it kept you itt for about 5x more post than your usual foray. )

Holy crap JC, they gave you your fold button back?!?!!?!

But yah, again especially with 3bets basically being defined as AAxx for most players at this limit, I don't think villain SHOULD be folding flop. If I have one of the very few combos of AAQQ or AA99 then yeah he's ****ed, but if those are the only other sets in my range then he can't fold bottom set on this board.

Also I feel like having a pic of the day is exactly what this thread needs for some more consistent posting. Though tbf, I'm prob gonna go to work, forget about this, and come back and just grind.

But it's a nice thought imo.

 

[JCgrind]

look the point is moot, i dont know how else to answer this. yes folding bottom set with less than a BI would be bad, but if you flop bottom set and your villain is keen to get it in, you have to know that youre hoping for a flip at best, which is why you dont flat 3b OOP etc.

one dumb move definitely doesnt justify making subsequent dumb moves, which is exactly why villain cant be like 'oh well, have to get it in now, oh he has me absolutely ****ing crushed, but i couldnt fold, what a cooler' because like deuces said, its just not a cooler at all.

on the contrary though, as scourrge say, micro PLO players are SO ****ING STUPID when it comes to stacking bare aces postflop, that this whole discussion becomes so villain dependent and moot that i quit lol

 

[DunningKruger]

Yep pre is pretty dumb. I was the first person here to point that out. My interest was in how getting in the remaining 80ish blinds or w/e post is lolbad compared to whatever post flop plan of action you think is far superior... donk/fold or check/raise/fold or something/something/something/fold... this part wasn't really specified yet. As it appears we're not going to get anywhere on that front, I'm just going to assume you meant to refer to a set (no pun intended) of contrived circumstances where getting it in otf with a set really would be "lolbad" (obv sometimes it will be) instead of the actual hand we were discussing.

villain cant be like 'oh well, have to get it in now, oh he has me absolutely ****ing crushed, but i couldnt fold, what a cooler' because like deuces said, its just not a cooler at all.

You just said literally right before this that folding bottom set with less than a BI would be bad..

 

[JCgrind]

i feel like youre trying to tell me that stacking bottom set as villain in the given hand isnt bad. just because he has to do it, it doesnt mean it isnt bad.

 

[DunningKruger]

I was really just trying to get some clarification on your opinion here as it kinda seems to be all over the place tbh. When you said that getting it in post was lolbad (even though in your words he has to do it) you also meant that any other post flop option at villain's disposal would be even more lolbad (roflmaobad we'll call it)?

Anyway, it's actually not that bad. In this player pool for these stacks the way this hand played out, considering all the factors at play like Scourrge's comment that 3bets here are rather AAxx (and some KKxx) heavy, not finding a fold there otf is ~not~ bad. Regardless of how high you may play or your reputation etc (I honestly haven't looked into that yet) you won't convince me that it is simply by saying that it is. I've played waayyy too much poker over the years to be swayed that easily so we can either go deeper in our analysis and logically show how this is -EV enough in consideration of the aforementioned factors to be "lolbad", or we can just drop it since the hand was just posted for the beat and wasn't supposed to be dissected in any meaningful manner. Heh.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I was really just trying to get some clarification on your opinion here as it kinda seems to be all over the place tbh. When you said that getting it in post was lolbad (even though in your words he has to do it) you also meant that any other post flop option at villain's disposal would be even more lolbad (roflmaobad we'll call it)?

Anyway, it's actually not that bad. In this player pool for these stacks the way this hand played out, considering all the factors at play like Scourrge's comment that 3bets here are rather AAxx (and some KKxx) heavy, not finding a fold there otf is ~not~ bad. Regardless of how high you may play or your reputation etc (I honestly haven't looked into that yet) you won't convince me that it is simply by saying that it is. I've played waayyy too much poker over the years to be swayed that easily so we can either go deeper in our analysis and logically show how this is -EV enough in consideration of the aforementioned factors to be "lolbad", or we can just drop it since the hand was just posted for the beat and wasn't supposed to be dissected in any meaningful manner. Heh.

Loved every second. But bolded deserves a gold star. Or a trophy.

i feel like youre trying to tell me that stacking bottom set as villain in the given hand isnt bad. just because he has to do it, it doesnt mean it isnt bad.

Wait what? Now I'm actually confused.

I'm presuming that bad (and/or lolbad slash roflmaobad) means "worse than open-folding." If that's true then why does he "have to do it" if it's worse than x/f?

Anyway, I need to play some goddamn poker so I can find another hand to post in here. In b4 moar 1-outers.

 

[JCgrind]

i dont know the flop action, but im assuming villain c/r, got 3b then called off.
villain has too much money in at this point to fold to the 3b due to the 'post flop stacking bare aces factor' and small chance that hes flipping with a mega wrap.
what i should have more elaborately said, is that villain (assuming that i have the action correct), after incorrectly calling pre, should never be checkraising bottom set here due to continuing ranges and all that jazz. villain is imo far better of going x/c x/c x/c on good runouts.

basically, i think that villain should not be looking to gii OTF in this scenario ever. that doesnt mean to say that he shouldnt be x/c'ing until all the money is in.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Ah ok. Well that is the action, but I still don't think his x/r is bad. Maybe a bit worse than x/c, but I doubt it, as the board doesn't often stay good, and I'm probably amidst the... maybe 10%? Of people in this limit on this site that is going to bet/fold AAxx on this board in a 3b pot ever.

 

[JCgrind]

maybe im giving the player pool too much credit as a whole. i really dont think people stack worse on that flop often? anyway, enough of that lol

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Jeez. How did I ever win money at this game?

I'm playing like someone who's at BEST breaking even at 5nl.

The worst part is knowing with absolute, unshakable certainty what the right play is... and then just doing the opposite.

I'm pretty sure that makes me objectively worse than a fish, right? KNOWing the right play but not doing it. Fish don't know the right thing, they just do whatever. Only the truly bad players know the right play and ignore it.

 

[BenjiHustle]

Jeez. How did I ever win money at this game?

I'm playing like someone who's at BEST breaking even at 5nl.

The worst part is knowing with absolute, unshakable certainty what the right play is... and then just doing the opposite.

I'm pretty sure that makes me objectively worse than a fish, right? KNOWing the right play but not doing it. Fish don't know the right thing, they just do whatever. Only the truly bad players know the right play and ignore it.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I guess I'm done with the whole self-loathing thing from last night, but bleh.

Always depressing to think you've cleared a hurdle, and realize you still have issues with it. Granted, I was tired, probably playing too many tables (4 zone) and didn't really prep at all - just hopped in to play. Plus this week has been pretty shitty at work so far, so may not have been the best plan...

But idk how I'm supposed to get around that, since it's not like work is ever going away. I'm usually going to be tired at the end of the day. I will have fewer hours to put in. And sometimes work is going to completely suck. It's starting to look really tricky to balance this whole "full-time job" thing with poker.

 

[JCgrind]

in-game sweat? haha

 

[Matt Vaughan]

in b4 "quit yur job to play teh pokerz loloololololololollll"

Yeah man I'm down for a sweat sometime. It's not even like I'm playing bad typically, just making those 50bb calls every once in while (not even that often) really tears me up because I know it's a losing call when I make it. All comes back to mental game I guess.

 

[ScottishMatt]

Create some conviction in yourself, man!

You have to believe that you are better than the players you are playing against. And when you do, well then you will be better than them.

Quick tip - after running through ranges etc. and analyzing whether to make the big call, or even right before any decision you make - as yourself if you are happy to lose in the current scenario. Ask yourself out loud if need be, but the important thing is that you believe you are making the correct decision. And if you truly do believe that then you can't be angry when you happen to lose, because you know it was right.

I fear what you might be doing right now is knowingly making a wrong play hoping that you yourself are wrong in thinking that it's the wrong play. Believe that you are right, ask yourself if you are comfortable making "x" decision no matter the outcome and then make it. Don't look back and regret it.

Keep ya head up!

 

[BenjiHustle]

Perhaps become a weekend reg?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Create some conviction in yourself, man!

You have to believe that you are better than the players you are playing against. And when you do, well then you will be better than them.

Quick tip - after running through ranges etc. and analyzing whether to make the big call, or even right before any decision you make - as yourself if you are happy to lose in the current scenario. Ask yourself out loud if need be, but the important thing is that you believe you are making the correct decision. And if you truly do believe that then you can't be angry when you happen to lose, because you know it was right.

I fear what you might be doing right now is knowingly making a wrong play hoping that you yourself are wrong in thinking that it's the wrong play. Believe that you are right, ask yourself if you are comfortable making "x" decision no matter the outcome and then make it. Don't look back and regret it.

Keep ya head up!

Thanks for your response Matt. It was mostly a moment of weakness. I'm not consistently making plays I KNOW are super bad lol.

And it's difficult to analyze these moments - mostly because they're not "rational" in a traditional sense. More, it's just a surge of emotion, and it's partly "I call because **** YOU." Partly it's just holding onto that vague hope that I'm wrong. And partly a "How can I STILL run like this," sort of thing.

But obv it's poker, yes I can obv still run like this. It's just embarrassing when the bad play intersects with it, because I can no longer blame it on variance (even if I only get X runout once in every 100 times). And people are super hard on themselves relative to others I guess.

I also appreciate your advice for getting out of it. And I think it's less about being okay with whatever outcome, and more about not having the awareness in the first place. When I make spazz calls like that, it's from NOT having my brain connected to my hand, if that makes sense. I just make the call.

But that's why I should be trying to maintain a pre-session warmup and mental game timers and stuff.

Perhaps become a weekend reg?

I'm gonna be busy but I doubt I'll ever be satisfied being a weekend reg. But I compromise too. So far I've been relatively good about not playing when I've had a particularly rough day. So for now just gonna keep on doing what I've been doing, but try to step up my analysis on whether I should be playing I guess.

And stop being lazy when it comes to pre-session.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Had my first biggish winning session in ages today, which felt nice. But more than that, I was playing really solid, no SUPERBAD plays and had a number of solid bluff-catching opportunities.

It's showing that as you move up, people are more aggro, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're loads better. At least on bovada, many of the bluff lines people are taking are pretty faceup. I also just played a bit tighter preflop today, and was more disciplined postflop, particularly OOP. Particularly in spots where I was OOP OTF and facing a bet, I just made tight folds so as to not spew on later streets where it's questionable whether I'd be making +EV moves or not.

Some hands should be incoming soon.

 

[JCgrind]

^ youre more like a god to me than anything. wpwp

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Some hands exclusively from the BB here. A mix of 50nl and 100nl, both zone and regular tables.

1. I wasn't fist-pumping but he should have every Ax two pair combo I think. Thoughts on line overall?

$0.50/$1 Zoom No Limit Holdem
pokerstars
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($99) 99bb
UTG+1 ($117.25) 117bb
CO ($19.45) 19bb
BTN ($133.88) 134bb
SB ($314.54) 315bb
scourrge (BB) ($113.15) 113bb

Pre-Flop: ($1.50, 6 players) scourrge is BB
3 folds, BTN raises to $2, 1 fold, scourrge calls $1

Flop: ($4.50, 2 players)
scourrge checks, BTN bets $3.25, scourrge raises to $10.50, BTN calls $7.25

Turn: ($25.50, 2 players)
scourrge bets $18, BTN calls $18

River: ($61.50, 2 players)
scourrge bets $35, BTN goes all-in $103.38, scourrge goes all-in $47.65


2. He was loose passive but not a whale. River too thin?

$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
4 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO ($104.20) 208bb
BTN ($49.25) 99bb
SB ($58.32) 117bb
scourrge (BB) ($57.15) 114bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 4 players) scourrge is BB :tc: :td:
CO raises to $1.75, 1 fold, SB raises to $6, scourrge calls $5.50, CO calls $4.25

Flop: ($18, 3 players)
SB checks, scourrge bets $8, CO calls $8, SB folds

Turn: ($34, 2 players)
scourrge bets $16, CO calls $16

River: ($66, 2 players)
scourrge goes all-in $27.15, CO calls $27.15



3. What do we think of the turn x/r? Looking back I don't really like it and I think our hand is still more or less a bluff-catcher. I'm pretty sure my calldown to his 3b is terribad.

$0.25/$0.50 Zoom No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($60.51) 121bb
UTG+1 ($60.45) 121bb
CO ($49.75) 100bb
BTN ($47.60) 95bb
SB ($39.81) 80bb
scourrge (BB) ($54.30) 109bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 6 players) scourrge is BB
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $1.75, 3 folds, scourrge calls $1.25

Flop: ($3.75, 2 players)
scourrge checks, UTG+1 bets $2, scourrge calls $2

Turn: ($7.75, 2 players)
scourrge checks, UTG+1 bets $4.50, scourrge raises to $18, UTG+1 goes all-in $56.70, scourrge goes all-in $32.55

River: ($108.85, 2 players, 2 all-in)

 

[Logan2]

H1, i only see 2 cards on flop 2 & 5
H3, i only see one card of Hero's holding, a Jd

H2, looks thin, if not a whale from what we get value on river aside of 88/99? some random 7x call 3 streets?, he should fold bricked draws, but no idea how 50/100 plays
​

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Yeah the Ad never shows up for some ****ing reason.

 

[BenjiHustle]

22: I want to gii, so i can't see a better way to do that.

TT: Check river, imo.

AJ: I fear the monster lurking want to flat for pot control. I would actually prefer to lead out to a call, hoping to scare him off of raising. If he raises when I lead, I may freak out jam, but hopefully I'd be able to call and avoid gii OTR.