Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

[BenjiHustle]

kinda surprised you two are into religion at all, figured you much more atheistic than that

My first degree was in philosophy with a focus in world religions.

Too bad there's no fulfilling career in it unless I wanna spew the same Aristotle bullsh*t to some college students who need an easy grade. I was really disappointed with how few people gave a damn about it; I was one of 7 philosophy degrees in a class of 6500. Lol

Also, I am an atheist. I also believe in the practice of Buddhism. I definitely don't believe in the theistic models (involving Mara and junk), but it's not hard to believe that we should follow something that says to be kind to people and your life is gonna be pretty chill. (Please excuse my simplified statement. I don't really feel like writing a book right now. Lol)

KJ: As soon as the BTN calls the 3bet then fires OTF, I let it go. You didn't say anything about him getting aggro in the face of passive play. Also, when SB check-raises, I think he can only have a set or straight, despite his LAGGY appearance (which is actually a bigger reason that I take this x/r so serious).

QQ: Hard to tell if BB is into calling, but I generally lead out OTF so they instantly think I'm FOS because a nutted type hand "doesn't bet here". I start value betting immediately these days and it's been working nicely. Even if I don't bluff all game, they'll still think it's too aggro for a full house. I've done it with quads and it worked too and the guy was calling me with A-high.

TT: Cool Runnings.

View attachment 66885

 

[BenjiHustle]

Whoops. Oversized photo alert.

 

[vinylspiros]

Whoops. Oversized photo alert.

LMFAO

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Dammit benji. Can't access CC at work unless from my phone. And my phone won't let me see the whole post now so I can't even see hand analysis

 

[BenjiHustle]

I have a plan.

EDIT: It's a sweet reference though.

 

[BenjiHustle]

Gotta love the mods!

 

[zEric7x]

What do you think of the idea of a poker cool down? It is something Jared Tendler mentions in his books. I am trying to think of one myself. Sometimes I get pretty frustrated by poker play and it sort can affect anything else I want do.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

@Benji:
QQ, I think you're overthinking tbh. It's not like he's folding any piece anyway. It's about wanting more of his range to have a piece in the first place, and also encouraging bluffs from the part of his range that literally never calls a bet.

For KJ, BTN only bets half pot and I deliberately checked to induce stabs. SB is a super fish - how can he only have sets/straights??? Just because I don't have a read on his "aggression vs. passivity" doesn't mean he's super strong here. And besides, BTN bets flop so idk how that read would be relevant anyway. I'm not saying it was necessarily the best play, but I don't think we're at all crushed by SB's range here. He should have a million pair + gutter draws that he's either calling or jamming flop with.

What do you think of the idea of a poker cool down? It is something Jared Tendler mentions in his books. I am trying to think of one myself. Sometimes I get pretty frustrated by poker play and it sort can affect anything else I want do.

I usually just do something calming/relaxing. Watch a tv show (comedy, not drama/thriller or w/e), maybe just read a book. Get away from the game. Sometimes review after is good but sometimes it just makes me obsess.

 

[BenjiHustle]

QQ: You're probably right.

KJ: He just sounds ultra-aggressive and so the only reason that he would likely ease up is to induce. Why else would he do that? He likely bets any pair and any draw and likely feels justified in doing so. So the only reason not to is because he, for once, isn't okay with chasing people off. I mean, that's just the way I see it. You're probably right though. I'm somewhat elementary, admittedly.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Well I mean I just don't see why because he's aggro you expect him to take a decidedly non-standard line with a super weak hand in a 3b pot?? Like, leading into 2 people with air in a 3b pot here isn't just bad, it's suicidal. And I'm not saying that means he doesn't do it, just that you don't really see people doing it in general.

Him checking the flop and then continuing certainly doesn't narrow his range to monsters. Players with these stats rarely take actions that narrow their ranges to monsters - it's kind of almost impossible to do.

No one else commenting on hands, so I guess I'll give results... QQ he had 32ss and was drawing dead. KJ, they had AQ and AJ. Obv I get it in for one of the best possible equity scenarios but I still don't think I'm really gii bad. Still don't normally gii quite that good though lol.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Thread completely dead. Would be awesome to get more feedback next time I post hands, guys It's not like I'm playing amazing and everything I'm doing is solid, so please weigh in next time.

Had a swingy few days. Nice change of pace from just losing, but swingy nonetheless. I took 20% of duggs in the sunday milly and he busted no cash. He wanted to take a piece of me in a $109 instead of just getting his money (for god knows what reason ), so I played a $109 $35k gtd on Sunday. I ran pretty piss poor throughout, not winning my first non-blind stealing pot until about level 7. I won an all-in when I jammed 10bb OTB with K6s into very tight players, and somehow got snapped by A6o in the BB. Managed to flop a K and hold though.

There I started to run better, picking up jacks a few times and winning small pots by raising pre and cbetting. Then got aces and got a guy to absolutely spazz: He opens MP and I 3b in the SB with AA and he flats, leaving an SPR of about 1. Flop J54r and I jam and he snaps with J8o. Turn 3, river 8, and I'm left with 2.5bb. End up calling it off from the BB vs. a SB jam when I have 76o. SB had been jamming like 4 hands per orbit with his 10ish bb stack, so I figured I'd have reasonable equity but he showed up with A7s and neither of us paired up.

Despite playing the $109 I ended basically even on the day which meant I did decently at cash, but after that it was up and down like mad again. Cutting out 50nl now because don't feel like redepositing again and at the lowest I've been in a while.

This is partially because I played 25PLO yesterday. Marginal was sweating me and the play there is just soooooo bad. Arguably on par with the skills of people at 5NL on Bovada. But PLO is PLO. I was dealt aces and kings a redic amount, and also flopped quite a few sets, but I was actually flopping quite poorly. I had to gii with aces in 4b pots a number of times when only barely ahead or reasonably behind, and I flopped sets on some of the grossest boards possible. About halfway through the session, Marginal and I agreed that I was down about 5 BI's. Turns out it was only 2.5 at the time, but it just seemed like more because of the sheer number of pots I was losing (a lot of the ones we thought were 70-80bb losses were more like 30-50bb). Continued to just get battered, flopping shitty equity right and left. Ended the session down 3.6 BI's.

Enjoyed it a lot despite the losses though, and I'm strongly considering mixing PLO into my usual grind. Not sure how I'd break it up - probably just play whatever I'm in the mood for mostly, but we'll see as time goes on.

Hope everyone's grind is going well.

 

[vinylspiros]

Well, scourge.

Sorry to hear that your not running like god. To be honest i dont know if anyone is running like god at the moment. You gotta maintain your cool and keep grinding.

If that means playing as low as 10NL. So be it.

Are you running below EV? Why do you think things arent working out for you?

 

[duggs]

Sorry been busy, ill check those hands tomorrow

 

[Logan2]

I can relate to PLO been very enjoyable and fun, but very swingy too.
After how swingy been last months you are brave to add a more swingy game at the time though.

About hands, i leave that to Mr Sandbag or duggs, you know better and play higher, so.

​

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I can relate to PLO been very enjoyable and fun, but very swingy too.
After how swingy been last months you are brave to add a more swingy game at the time though.

About hands, i leave that to Mr Sandbag or duggs, you know better and play higher, so.

​

Well I don't think I'll be switching my main game to PLO, just mixing it in, but yes I'm aware how swingy it is. I didn't really get it in bad against anyone's range at any point that session, yet was down 4 BI's at the end and it was pretty standard. But also, those games are soooo soft that the potential for upswings is even bigger as well. With some bare bones study and practice I should be crushing those games.

Bolded part about hand analysis is a load of crap. I literally just said that a lot of the hands I've posted show me at my worst. And I've explained that the people I'm playing against are absolutely terrible. If you're claiming that you play in much softer games, think again. If you're claiming you have no valid input on hands ever, that's also BS cause you post hand feedback in micro's thread a ton.

Well, scourge.

Sorry to hear that your not running like god. To be honest i dont know if anyone is running like god at the moment. You gotta maintain your cool and keep grinding.

If that means playing as low as 10NL. So be it.

Are you running below EV? Why do you think things arent working out for you?

Not sure where my EV is right now, but it's not all about the EV line. When I first came back I was basically running at EV but running into tops of ranges everywhere. I obviously wasn't playing amazing after running shit for 4 months, but I was still playing well enough to beat the games I was in. Not going to write a long-winded post about "why I'm not winning," sorry lol. There's just no benefit to dwelling on the losses at this point - I need to look forward and focus on playing better and moving ahead.

how can someone fall asleep on a poker table I would understand if they are totally not interested in poker than they would not sit down at one anyway

This seems like a very sad attempt at reaching 30 quality posts. Try reading something that happened in the last month or two instead of dropping in and commenting about the (obviously facetious) title.

 

[Logan2]

Well I don't think I'll be switching my main game to PLO, just mixing it in, but yes I'm aware how swingy it is. I didn't really get it in bad against anyone's range at any point that session, yet was down 4 BI's at the end and it was pretty standard. But also, those games are soooo soft that the potential for upswings is even bigger as well. With some bare bones study and practice I should be crushing those games.

Bolded part about hand analysis is a load of crap. I literally just said that a lot of the hands I've posted show me at my worst. And I've explained that the people I'm playing against are absolutely terrible. If you're claiming that you play in much softer games, think again. If you're claiming you have no valid input on hands ever, that's also BS cause you post hand feedback in micro's thread a ton.

Really wish you crush PLO in no time, adding a extra game could help to distract from nlhe and stressout from long bad stretch, poker supossed to be fun after all .

About hands, being fair i coment hands on Micro's thread a lot because he and Benji are pretty much the only ones that coment on my thread/hands too (some times Keith), i know most of the time hands should be borring or standard for you but some times is disheartening that no one comment as im sure you know, the other reason is that Micro is playing my same level and you play higher and feel you know a ton more.

Anyway, things that jump on last hands.
KJ, looks thin and not sure our outs are clean, i want to cb flop instead of check as AQ/QQ/JJ/AJ and other hands flat the 3b and call flop with a draw, so not want to give a free card and want to get value.

QQ, i always bet flop for max value as Kx, FD, TJ and others worst are calling, a diamond could kill the action on turn vs some villains and will hate give Kx get turn free and hit (KT for example there, not that it matters for result but prefeer to bet/gii when ahead).

TT, happens (more to you but still nothing to do)

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Really wish you crush PLO in no time, adding a extra game could help to distract from nlhe and stressout from long bad stretch, poker supossed to be fun after all .

Me too, and that's well said.

About hands, being fair i coment hands on Micro's thread a lot because he and Benji are pretty much the only ones that coment on my thread/hands too (some times Keith), i know most of the time hands should be borring or standard for you but some times is disheartening that no one comment as im sure you know, the other reason is that Micro is playing my same level and you play higher and feel you know a ton more.

Fair enough. I used to be subbed to you but am not anymore for some reason. I think it happened b/c I was subbed to a million cash threads for a while and just wasn't contributing to any of them. Will get back in there. Most posted hands are valid to analyze on some level or another.

Anyway, things that jump on last hands.
KJ, looks thin and not sure our outs are clean, i want to cb flop instead of check as AQ/QQ/JJ/AJ and other hands flat the 3b and call flop with a draw, so not want to give a free card and want to get value.

QQ, i always bet flop for max value as Kx, FD, TJ and others worst are calling, a diamond could kill the action on turn vs some villains and will hate give Kx get turn free and hit (KT for example there, not that it matters for result but prefeer to bet/gii when ahead).

TT, happens (more to you but still nothing to do)

Yeah on KJ that makes sense, I just felt that the reggier one couldn't help stabbing with any piece. Didn't really think he'd bet/call it off that light but the price was right I suppose. I def felt it was pretty thin at the time though.

Only thing on QQ is that SPR isn't that big so I'm not that worried about missing much value. A diamond won't kill much action b/c anything that calls flop doesn't worry too much about a single diamond coming anyway imo.

TT: Hahaha. Well said.

 

[Logan2]

Only thing on QQ is that SPR isn't that big so I'm not that worried about missing much value. A diamond won't kill much action b/c anything that calls flop doesn't worry too much about a single diamond coming anyway imo.

A diamond worry any SD hand without a diamond (TJ/AT/AJ) because need to be careful first because board is pair, and if diamond come on turn his outs are compromised for river as any diamond card on river could give you a flush in a 4 diamond board (or you already could have the flush on turn), so not the same for villain with TJ for example, that could call a flop bet, but give up turn if diamond come.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

A diamond worry any SD hand without a diamond (TJ/AT/AJ) because need to be careful first because board is pair, and if diamond come on turn his outs are compromised for river as any diamond card on river could give you a flush in a 4 diamond board (or you already could have the flush on turn), so not the same for villain with TJ for example, that could call a flop bet, but give up turn if diamond come.

Yes but you're also assuming that villain never improves to a hand he can call with OTT that would have folded to a flop bet (backdoor FD, 4-straight, Ax), and also that he never stabs at the pot with some of his pure air that would fold to a bet. And a diamond is only going to come about 1/5 of the time, so I don't think that outweighs the other factors.

Also I don't think many people are folding JT to one bet when the 2d hits the turn. Or the 9d or the Ad for that matter. And when a diamond comes it's also reasonably likely that he has a 4-flush himself. At least as likely that I have one.

 

[zEric7x]

I wish I could give some actual advice on hands but I am still trying to understand ABC play myself. At best I could show you what a NIT thinks haha. Either way I hope you continue to improve.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I wish I could give some actual advice on hands but I am still trying to understand ABC play myself. At best I could show you what a NIT thinks haha. Either way I hope you continue to improve.

Always looking for input, and ABC is often the way to go in these games. I'd like to think that I have the ability to operate on a relatively high level, but most of the time if I'm playing my A-game that higher level is still going to direct me to play relatively straightforward, because the villains are pretty darn bad.

PLO Update:

Played a couple more sessions and the swings have been about as expected. Had a couple breakeven-ish sessions after my 4 BI loss, which was fine. Been honing my preflop ranges a bit and have been vastly improving my postflop skills. Biggest thing with preflop has been focusing on hand structure. I've cut out loads of semi-connected hands from OOP, favoring the really strong drawing hands instead (no gap between top 2 cards, no more than 2-gap between 2nd and 3rd card, and ideally top-to-bottom card-differential is 5 or less).

My last real session I went +5 BI, which was nice, but mostly I was just happy with my decision-making. I was thinking through hands more thoroughly than before, and just easily folding the marginal spots, which felt great. It also showed, as I wasn't giving away chips repeatedly, and I freerolled people a ton of times.

Also played one short session today where I went roughly +1 BI. Standard stuff. Parents are in town for the week, so not sure how much I'll be playing, but I'll be trying to keep reading Pot Limit omaha poker by Jeff Hwang this week.

 

[DunningKruger]

Hwang's PLO material is standard reading for any Omaha player. Read it and also realize that most everyone else at the table you're at has probably read it also. Heh. I hate PLO, and Hi/Lo not much less. Everyone needs to play NLH. IMO. Insert various other acronyms here.

 

[Logan2]

^^Why hate PLO?^^

I like Hi/Lo only because is less hard to be at least BE and because higher vpps, but at the same time is little tilting to have the nuts on hi or low and still split pots.
Book part is a exageration?, i doubt that everyone on a random PLO table has probably read that book as most people dont read books.

Matt , can i call you Matt? is out in the inerview and Scourrge is such a weird word for me that even have to copy/paste for real, even have to google it as never read it before and get this.

Definiciones de scourge

Verbo
whip (someone) as a punishment.
"As he is beaten, he falls on his back and can see only the foot of the soldier who is scourging him."
sinónimos: flog, whip, beat, horsewhip, lash, flagellate, strap, birch, cane, thrash, belt, leather, tan someone's hide, take a strap to

So don't flagellate yourself is the same like don't scourge yourself?

Anyway, back to PLO, are u using a hud/tracker? or no huds and anonimous tables too?



​

 

[Fknife]

[..]but I'll be trying to keep reading Pot Limit Omaha Poker by Jeff Hwang this week.

http://nutblocker.com/adjusting-to-aggressive-players-on-static-boards-part-1-by-zenfish/
http://nutblocker.com/adjusting-to-aggressive-players-on-static-boards-part-2-by-zenfish13/

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Hwang's PLO material is standard reading for any Omaha player. Read it and also realize that most everyone else at the table you're at has probably read it also. Heh. I hate PLO, and Hi/Lo not much less. Everyone needs to play NLH. IMO. Insert various other acronyms here.

Your statement makes sense to me in general, but not in this context. People playing micro- and low-stakes PLO on Bovada have not (necessarily) read Hwang's PLO books. There are obviously some players who get it in reasonably well most of the time. But then again I've also gotten it in as an 80+% favorite OTF 3 times in my last 2 sessions (maybe 500 hands of play?).

The standard of play is comically bad, even by #brovada standards. It's part of my motivation for continuing. I'm not planning to drop NLH, but IMO keeping some PLO mixed in there so that I can HF and #crush (in a game that I'm still very much learning the ropes) could be good for me.

(Enough acronyms/hashtags for you?)

^^Why hate PLO?^^

I like Hi/Lo only because is less hard to be at least BE and because higher vpps, but at the same time is little tilting to have the nuts on hi or low and still split pots.
Book part is a exageration?, i doubt that everyone on a random PLO table has probably read that book as most people dont read books.

Matt , can i call you Matt? is out in the inerview and Scourrge is such a weird word for me that even have to copy/paste for real, even have to google it as never read it before and get this.

Definiciones de scourge

Verbo
whip (someone) as a punishment.
"As he is beaten, he falls on his back and can see only the foot of the soldier who is scourging him."
sinónimos: flog, whip, beat, horsewhip, lash, flagellate, strap, birch, cane, thrash, belt, leather, tan someone's hide, take a strap to

So don't flagellate yourself is the same like don't scourge yourself?

Anyway, back to PLO, are u using a hud/tracker? or no huds and anonimous tables too?
​

Lol yes you can use Matt. And my screenname comes from another game I used to play - have just used it for years.

I don't use a HUD yet (I'd have to buy the PLO version of it), and I don't even use a tracker (would have to both buy the PLO version of PT4 and the PLO hand converter software). I'm more likely to get the tracking stuff than a HUD. The HUD just isn't necessary yet and right now I'm focusing on hand selection and rudimentary hand-reading. I think a HUD would just be too much information for me to successfully take in right now.

http://nutblocker.com/adjusting-to-aggressive-players-on-static-boards-part-1-by-zenfish/
http://nutblocker.com/adjusting-to-aggressive-players-on-static-boards-part-2-by-zenfish13/

Thanks! ZenFish is super active on RunItOnce, and I actually got to interact with him a bit in the forums when I was more active there. I was in a PLO group on skype with him for a short while when I thought I was going to get more into it, but I ended up not being very active (life stuff got crazy).