Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

[Lmbeach]

I promised some of my own donkey hands, so here goes:

1.
limp 55 somewhere in MP after the UTG player limps, folds to CO who raises to $15, UTG calls, I call. CO immediately strikes me as a solid player who gives the fish a lot of credit, he has folded to every donk bet into him*. I haven't played a single hand in the 4-5 orbits since he sat down, he has $700+ in front of him. UTG is a fish, he will check-call weak hands and then fold to a turn bet or river bet with a missed draw and will check-raise strong hands, almost never leads.
Flop: Ad6h4c
UTG checks, I decided a bet here folds out almost all of the CO's range, and the UTG is easy to play against. I lead for $25 and they both call, end of hand. Lightening strikes on the turn.
Turn: 5c.
UTG checks, I bet $65, CO calls, but really looks like he wanted to raise, UTG folds.
River: 7x (not a club)
the pot is ~$250 I have about $450ish behind. I decide I'm near certain this guy has Aq/k/j/Tcc and after a rather long time (30ish seconds) I decide to bet $75. he snap raises to $250 total. I decide there is really only one value hand he has to raise with and a bunch of hands he might decide are no good and turn into bluffs (mostly Axcc hands), I call. Villain tables QcTc, I scoop a $750 pot.

2. SB with AcJc, 5 limpers to me, I elect to call, BB checks.
Flop: AJ9r $12 in the pot, I have ~$340ish behind.
I lead the field for $15, BB calls, UTG+2 makes it $50, MP makes it $125, I go all in, BB calls, UTG+2 has this dumbfounded look on his face and folds, MP calls. BB only had $100ish left, so the main pot is ~$450, side pot is ~$425. I table my AJ, MP just stands up and starts getting his stuff (he later said he had A9 and thought I would have raised AJ/JJ pre). BB has T8 and rivers a 7. It's not everyday that a $12 pot blows up into a $850ish one.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

55: I don't really have much to say about your line except that you either need to evaluate how you gathered your reads, or change them very drastically after this hand, since CO apparently floated you with Q-high on an A-high board without any immediate draws. We think he's folding close to his entire range but then he has QT with a backdoor flush draw. Also, I'd much rather a lead on a raggy or lower board than this. A-high boards are going to hit preflop aggressors/iso'rs ranges too often. T64, go for it. 832, sure. But I'm not loving it with this hand I don't think. Turn is obv a slam-dunk bet - I put villain primarily on strong Ax hands. River seems fine, though again if he's jamming QT here we need to seriously re-evaluate our reads. Because based on how strong his range should be here (since we supposedly fold out so much of it OTF), a call is actually thin vs. his value range.

2. Call preflop seems fine if people aren't folding much. Flop sizing is fantastic. No A ever finds a fold on this flop really, and even though it feels like we have the board crushed, there are some draws, and we need to build the pot up now. Perfect sizing. Flop action is a LITTLE bit scary, but we block slow-played AA and JJ, and I think people are less inclined to limp in with 99, though obv that's player dependent. I don't fold at any point. NH.

 

[duggs]

55, hate the flop lead, river i bet bigger unless you were specifically trying to induce. reads are really odd given villains line in general. c/c river might even be better if you think his range is draw heavy enough to bet/call.

 

[Lmbeach]

Sorry guys, he tabled AQcc, not QTcc. On the river I didn't bet just induce, I was really looking to get a crying call from an ace, but after he raised it just felt like he took my small bet as weak and decided to turn his hand into a bluff.

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[Mr Sandbag]

In the 55 hand, how does a donk bet on that flop fold out all of CO's range? He raised to $15 pre and the flop is Ace high. IMO, you're actually folding very little of his range.

AJ - Limping isn't bad at all, but I think I prefer a large preflop raise for value. AJcc is certainly ahead of the five limp ranges and I'd rather play heads up or against two others rather than play a 7-way pot. If you still get 4+ callers, play accordingly postflop.

 

[Lmbeach]

The flop action for the 55 hand was terrible, I was really more interested in what you all thought of the river action.

A few more:

Move to a table with a guy who's throwing money around and has been running hot (via a friend who's at the table already), he has about $4k in front of him - yes, at a $1/$2 table. I sit down with $700, watch him for a few rotations and see him stack off against a reg who's about $2k deep with Ad3d against TT on a Td2d8c board, he rivers the flush. I add another $1,000 to the game (that's the most I can pull from the ATM) and a few rotations later I start this hand with $2,4xx. SB with QKo, it's limped to the whale who makes it $25 (he has done this with about 80% of his holdings) and the table calls to me. I call, BB calls, limpers call. Flop comes QQJ I check, checks to the whale, who bets $175. Folds to me, I call, BB calls, rest fold. Turn: K, I check, BB checks, he bets $500 (the pot is $775), I min raise to $1,000 ($1,200 behind) BB folds. I am obviously just looking to get it in here, but feel like I need one extra bet and I know if he calls the min-raise he is calling off the rest on the river. He tank calls. River is a J, I put the last $1,200 in, he says, god I hope you have quad queens and says call. Do I really need to say what he has?

Spoiler

J - J - J - J

KQcc in CO, 3 limpers to me, I raise to $15, folds to MP3 who calls. He isn't 'loose' but over values his hands - I have seen him bet two pair on a 4 to a flush board into 4 people and bet-bet-call raise-bet-call raise top two on a Th9h8d-Qh-2c board. We are both ~$600 deep. Flop comes AcJcJx, Villain checks, I bet $20, he calls. Turn comes 10x, he checks, I bet $45 and he looks like he is going to raise here, but instead decides to call. River comes a 3c and he leads me for $100. I tank on this for a while, but finally call.

Spoiler

He shows over KQo.

In SB with KK, UTG has limped - I view him as a good player who rarely gets out of line - BTN limps (same from hand above), I raise to $15, BB calls, UTG calls, BTN calls. flop comes off 23Tr. I bet $30, BB calls, UTG raises to $100, BTN calls and I make a sigh-fold after a deal of thought, BB folds. Turn comes a 6, UTG shoves for about pot, BTN tank calls,

Spoiler

UTG shows AA, BTN shows 22.

KJo in late MP. 3 limpers, I raise to $15, BTN calls. BTN is usually a decent player, but tonight is playing really loose and taking the hands a long way. limpers call ($75). Flop comes KdTh3x, checks to me, I bet $50, only BTN calls. ($175) 8d comes off on the turn, I wanted to c/c and eval river - usually he has a pretty good calling range and this pot is pretty big already, but I decide instead to bet $100. He calls, a blank falls on the river, I check thinking I wanted to bluff-catch with my hand now, he bets $175, I call.

Spoiler

he mucks without showing as soon as I call

 

[pokertoi]

I plan on playing Live for the first time in the very near future. I'm not sure if I should try the cash tables or maybe try an find a small buy-in tournament. Suggestions are welcomed and appreciated.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

JJ: Don't take this the wrong way, but this is a mega-cooler obviously. Not much to say on the actual hand, except for maybe that how I play it depends on how well-rolled I am. If I've got 50 BI's for 1/2, I buy in as deep as possible, and I'm probably squeezing preflop with KQ for value. Sick beat either way, don't get me wrong, but still just a cooler. Post is kind of w/e. Like, we wanna shovel money in. Only you can say what was best based on dynamics imo. Since I really don't see players like this pretty much ever. Fwiw though, I prob jam the turn, because he's never folding any Q OTT that he calls OTR. And OTT based on action we can put him on tons of QJ an AQ.

KQcc: Based on read that he overplays hands, we have to leave worse flushes and maybe even KQ in his range. I don't put much stock in the "he looks like he wanted to raise." Since that may be wrong, or even not mean what we think it means. River seems like a standard call, and oh well if he has a boat.

KK: Based just on the hands I'm seeing, and how many calls you're getting, my gut says to bet bigger on every street, but especially preflop. You're missing tons of value if they will still call like $20. Or even if fewer people call but you still get action - that's huge. Flop needs to be bigger. Facing the raise and more importantly, the over-call, we can snap-fold and feel pretty good about it imo.

KJ: Pre and flop seem standard. Turn looks like a really good spot for some good ole fashioned pot control. OTR, what air does he even have in his range? Aside from like QJ, or maybe AQdd, AJdd, JTdd, T9dd, it's tough for me to find any air in his range that just flats two streets. He has lots of bluff-catchers OTR along with some stronger hands that he doesn't want to raise. So I think as played river is a sigh-x/f.

Post-spoiler: It seems like the current dynamics extended further than I thought based on your description. I was still giving him relatively standard/decent ranges. If the dynamics were really so different from past history, the line might be okay. But again, you're dealing with player types who typically just don't exist in my game. Basically no one in my games is calling 2 streets with a draw then betting 80bb OTR with air.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Not been playing poker for a few days, since I've been doing job interview stuff, but I'm planning to play tomorrow, and once again there's a chance I'll play some 2/5. Will of course update either way, but if I play 2/5 I'll definitely go in-depth. Hope everyone's doing well!

 

[duggs]

Hands thread go

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Yesterday was interesting. I played almost 13 and a half hours, and made $20 overall. A sick $1.49/hour ftw. On my first table, I was VERY card dead for a long time. Virtually my only interesting spots came with 88.


Preflop:
OTB, 3 limpers to me, and I overlimp. 5-way to the flop:

Flop: ($10) (5 players)
Oldish, tight player in EP leads for $12. Folds to me and I call. Folds back around.

Turn: ($30) (2 players)
Villain sort of shakes his head a little, but subtly. It didn't seem intentional. He reaches toward his chips, then checks. I say something like, "wow, you really put me on J9 here?" Villain doesn't respond. I bet $20, and villain quickly x/r to $40. I laugh, and say something like "you're gonna let me draw to my flush," while pointing at the board. Villain sort of nods. I call, with a nagging feeling in the back of my head that I'm drawing to a full house or quads.

River: ($110) (2 players)
Villain thinks for only a moment, and bets $100. I say "wow, this is sick." Villain doesn't react. After some hemming and hawing, I say "I have a set." Still nothing. At this point it's pretty clear in my head that I'm behind. But instead of reaching for my cards to much, I say, "well, I guess you could have deuces," and stick a $100 stack in. Villain turns over J9o, and I muck.

Fwiw, I didn't really tilt or anything afterward. I knew I played the hand perfectly until the river, at which point I made a $100 mistake. So be it. Mistakes are part of poker, yadda yadda. It definitely sucks to put villain on the only hand he can have, and then make the wrong play, but oh well. It's another learning experience, so hopefully I can start following through on my reads better.

Sand was on my left, and a decent-ish regular was on my right, and they asked if I really had a set, and I basically said yes, a set is essentially the only hand I even get to the river with that tank-calls for $100. But I also said it was still a bad call. The regular on my right disagreed and was saying I can't realistically fold there, but I think that's nonsense. His flop donking range is wide (relatively), but his turn x/min-raise range is just J9. And if it wasn't, adding the $100 river bet makes it VERY clear.

My next 88 hand went a bit better:


Preflop:
In MP, 1 limper to me and I make it $12. I get 3 callers.

Flop: ($45) (4 players)
Checks around to me and I bet $25. I'm obviously crushing everyone's range, but with 3 other players in, and calling raises preflop, it's so likely that someone's got an ace. It folds around to a decent reg, who calls.

Turn: ($95) (2 players)
Villain leads for $40, and I puke a little bit in my mouth. He's a pretty solid player from what I remember of him. It's certainly possible that he leads AQ here because he discounts AK more with the K on board, but I'm pretty wary at this point of him having AK. It's the only hand that I would expect him to lead here 100% of the time, anyway. But I have a boat, so I call.

River: ($175) (2 players)
Yes, I really did just make quads. Villain leads for something like $65, leaving himself maybe $85 behind. I think for a few moments, and reach for 2 stacks to push around my cards into the pot. Villain is reaching for the rest of his stack to call with even as I begin reaching for my stacks. As I push the stacks forward, villain beats me into the pot. "I have quads," I say as I flip my hand over. Villain mucks, saying he had AK.

I believe he did have AK, even though he didn't show. He took the beat quite well, but everything about his actions screamed that he had AK. He brought the hand back up a few times later in the session, so it was clearly on his mind. Being a decent player, I think he was trying to justify the hand in his mind, and see if there was anything he could have done differently. Personally, I was trying to figure out what I would have done if the river was a blank and he made the same bet. I think it's pretty obvious that I can't jam against a good player, and I think based on my reads at the time, a fold would have been correct. But then, would a turn fold have been correct? Probably. Sick, but probably. In-game I likely just call twice and puke all over the table when I'm beat.


There were a number of other interesting spots from that session, but I won't go over them in detail. Here are a few highlights:

- I over-limp pocket 6's in MP, and go multiway to a T96 two-tone flop. It checks to me and I lead for pot, and get called in 2 spots. The turn is a T, it checks to me, I bet about 2/3 pot, and both players (both short) go all-in. I obviously call. The river is a Q, and MHIG against 87 (flopped straight) and KT (trips). Miracle runout for me.

- Table change, and there's a terribad LAG sitting on $1,300, a drunk with $400, and a few other marginally bad players sitting pretty deep. I've got $600ish (though I'm about even)

- I finally get position on terribad LAG, two to his left, and proceed to go extremely card dead. I win a few small pots, but for the most part I whiff every board.

- Tightish, predictable player raises in MP 7-handed, and terribad LAG (only has about $800 now) calls in the CO. Tightish, fit-or-fold player calls OTB. I flat in the SB with AJhh, and Sand (who has since moved to my table and is on my immediate left where I like him) calls in the BB. Flop J54 two tone, and it checks around. Turn is an offsuit 7, and I bet $30 into about $50. CO mega-lag raises to $75. I call. River is the 3c, bringing the flush in. I check, villain bets $100. I had seen him bet massive (including overbets) with air before, so I figured when the board looks that terrible, I have to give him credit. I fold and he doesn't show. Villain seemed extremely happy after that hand though, so I thought perhaps I was duped.



Going back to the casino tonight probably, and thinking about maybe playing some PLO (or 2/5 NL, if the game looks good). If I do play PLO, I'll be buying in relatively short (it's $1/$2 with a $5 bring in, buy in range is $100-$500). Either $150 or $200, and playing super duper tight. The game is supposed to be pretty good, but obviously variance will be enormous, particularly in multiway pots.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

Tightish, predictable player raises in MP 7-handed

When I read this, I actually started to think about possible hands I had raised that you would highlight. Then I realized you weren't referring to me...

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Looooool.

 

[duggs]

88, i think its a significant mistake not to raise the flop, villain over bets pot with a widish range and we have middle set v a villain unlikely to fold.

88, decent reg overcall from the blinds pre? otherwise was one of the limpers? either way i think AK is a tiny part of their range, A8 is more likely ignoring combos for a second, but AQ/AJ/AT are all reasonable and i would probably raise turn and get stacks in.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

First 88, yeah prob. At the time I just thought his range was wide enough that he'd just be folding like weak TP to raises. But there are a lot of action killers to weak TP anyway, even if that was true.

Can't remember how much live poker you've played duggs, so I'll just say that it's my experience that this type of player live is not going to lead AJ- on that turn. AQ, maybe, but not worse Ax. Once they x/c the flop, leading the turn just isn't stando.


I played about 4 hours of 1/2 tonight before putting my name on the list for 2/5. I was up nearly a buyin, and decided that that was as good a time as any, since I'd be buying in for $500. So being up $200 would mean a "total investment" of just $300 for playing 2/5.

It took about an hour, but I was called for the game, and ended up playing about 5 hours there - much of it at the must-move game, and much of it short-handed. I can't go into details nows, because I'm just too tired, but I'll post a more full description after I've slept a good amount.

 

[duggs]

hand equivalency tho, why would they lead AK but not AQ/AJ?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I really don't see how AJ = AQ = AK when much of my range there is Ax.

But even if we think that's true for this spot, why do you assume that live regs do? (In one of my follow-up posts I'm gonna mention some stuff I heard some regs say after hands that will relate to this.)

 

[Matt Vaughan]

1/2 UPDATES BELOW

We're starting with 1/2 hands, sorry. There were a number of spots that came up, so I wanted to get some of them out here.

Preflop:
In the BB, EP limper and SB completes to me and I make it $12. Loose, old guy in EP calls, and the SB folds.

Flop: ($25) (2 players)
I bet $15, and villain effectively snap calls. I'm putting him on some Ax, and tons of flush draws.

Turn: ($50) (2 players)
I check, and villain SNAP throws in $15. Looks pretty obviously like a bet from a draw trying to get me to fold when it looks like I might be giving up. I take about 10 seconds and call.

River: ($80) (2 players)
I'd already been planning on x/c the river if he made another "please fold" type of snap-bet, but rivering a set changes the plan a little. I'm still putting him mostly on missed hearts, so I go ahead with the check part of the plan. He snap-bets $25, and after maybe 10 seconds I go all-in for his remaining $60 or so. He thinks for a few moments, and folds. I don't show obv.


While it was annoying not to win more when I rivered the set, it was nice to be validated on my read, and feel confident that I took the right line, regardless of what came out.



Preflop:
In the SB. UTG (same villain from above hand) makes it $6, and there are 3 callers. I elect to call. BB, a tag-ish (doesn't seem super solid, but not a spewer mostly) makes it $12. UTG makes it $18 (there was an on-going joke about that size bet, since one of the players basically only bet $18 preflop). Two of the initial callers fold, but one flats OTB. UTG has about $40 back from what I can see. I go all in. BB folds. UTG quickly calls. It folds around.

Pot = ~$140

The board runs out and I don't improve. I lose to KK.


I just wanted to highlight the size of the pot when I jammed for about $40 more into a pretty big pot. Even with villain's hand face up it's a profitable jam if everyone else folds 100% of the time, which I'm pretty confident they do. I'll also be flipping sometimes against UTG, which isn't bad either.



Preflop:
In the CO. MP ($200) makes it $8, and I flat. BTN ($200) (guy who makes it $12 and then folds to my jam in the previous hand) makes it $20 to go. MP calls, and I call. 3-way to the flop:

Flop: ($55) (3 players)
Checks to me and I see no point in leading into the 3bettor. I check, and the BTN checks behind. I am now putting BTN on almost entirely PP's lower than KK.

Turn: ($55) (3 players)
MP checks fairly quickly, and it seems he's given up on the hand. I am about to bet, but I see out of the corner of my eye that BTN appears to be shifting and getting ready to make a bet, anticipating my check. I tank for a few moments, wanting to make it look as though I'm considering a bet. I check, and BTN thinks for maybe 15 seconds and reluctantly checks it back again.

River: ($55) (2 players)
MP thinks for a little while, and bets $25. I tank, hoping to get a read on whether BTN will fold. BTN shifts in his chair and seems ready to fold. He also exposes his hand to the seat on his right, and I'm 100% confident he will fold if I call. I don't put MP on a value hand, and don't see him ever turning a pair into a bluff, so I call.

BTN folds, and MP shows AQ. MHIG.


Preflop:
In MP. Decent, thinking reg limps in EP, and I raise to $10. HJ calls, and EP limper calls.

Flop: ($30) (3 players)
EP leads for $15, which is essentially always going to be for value when first to act into a wet board in a MW pot. I flat, not seeing much merit in raising. HJ folds.

Turn: ($55) (2 players)
EP leads for $25, and I tank for a little while trying to decide between calling and raising. I think I am freerolling most of the time vs. a JT type of hand, occasionally am against a set or two pair, and non-zero amount of the time I'm behind QT. I decide that a raise is bad since it folds out most if not all worse, and if we're currently chopping, I can raise club rivers and probably get paid off with less risk.

River: ($100) (2 players)
EP bets $40, and I just call, expecting that if I raise, everything worse folds, chops never fold, and QT obviously gets it in.

Villain shows J8 for flopped two pair and my straight is good. I make a mental note for the future that villain thin-value bet two pair on a 4-straight board two streets in a row.

Pretty happy with my thought process and play in this hand, but thoughts of course are welcome.


Preflop:
In the SB. Folds to the CO, who limps. The BTN, a newish player to the table (hasn't played a hand yet, in about an orbit) makes it $15. I flat, and we go HU to the flop.

Flop: ($30) (2 players)
I check, BTN bets $25, and I tank forever and call. I'm actually already pretty wary, and think there's a very good chance that I'm behind. Theoretically villain could play 66+ this way, but the sizing looks so stereotypical of a JJ+ type hand, weighted toward KK+.

Turn: ($75) (2 players)
I check again, and BTN bets $25, leaving himself about $35 behind. I ask him if he has about $35 left, and he clumsily counts out his stack. I ask if he'll show if I fold. He makes an ambiguous face with a half-shrug, and I laugh, asking him friendlily whether that means yes or no. He hesitates and then says, "sure." I think for only a moment, and fold. He shows AA.


Very pleased with my play in that hand, aside from the flop call, which I am on the fence about. I think given how the board came out, calling one street is understandable, but I thought it was very close at the time. On the turn, I was in a spot where I used to get myself trapped into losing the remaining $60 in villain's stack. It's a spot where yes, I've called $25 OTF getting only about 2:1, and suddenly facing the same bet on the turn I'm getting 4:1. But it's also a spot where villain's range is so clarified and narrow that there's no need to put any more money in. I did ask if villain would show, so that I could hopefully get some free information, but really it just adds weight to the read I already believed I had.


That's basically all the 1/2 hands of interest from last night. I won about $200 before going to 2/5. I'll save my 2/5 hands for the next post, since this one is already long enough, and I've got a number of hands. Any feedback on the above hands is welcome.

 

[duggs]

AQ why do you assume bb folds 100% of the time?

 

[duggs]

TT turn looks good but I think with reads we can find a fold on the flop, especially if we are planning on folding turn

 

[duggs]

KT I really really want I raise turn, putting stacks in to freeroll is awesome, and sets/2pair/unlikely fds will sometimes call.

44 seems really optimistic, but I dunno

 

[Lmbeach]

I don't like the 44 hand. Villain shows up with JJ QQ maybe even TT here a lot and you still have the BTN to act. I think you got really lucky on this one. You can only beat A high. I guess his plan was to hope he could make the small pairs fold. The rest looks about right.

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[Matt Vaughan]

AQ why do you assume bb folds 100% of the time?

Even if he doesn't it's fine, but it's pretty unlikely he calls imo. When UTG makes it $6 and half the table calls, BB's make-it-$12 range is entirely small pairs.

TT turn looks good but I think with reads we can find a fold on the flop, especially if we are planning on folding turn

Probably, but by the same token, can I just fold pre then?? It's effectively a miracle flop for me - I actually beat some "overpairs." So if I should be folding this flop, can I even call pre when I can't set-mine profitably? Not sure that really makes sense, just throwing it out there.

KT I really really want I raise turn, putting stacks in to freeroll is awesome, and sets/2pair/unlikely fds will sometimes call.

Okay, sets may put it in a non-zero %, but I'm not convinced he has many combos sets (when he limp-calls pre - he's not a loose passive fish). But even if he has them and they do put it in, I don't think 2 pairs do. I don't have super specific reads on him but he always struck me as a decent player who didn't make lots of crying-call type mistakes (which that would be). And he literally only has 1 FD combo imo - 98cc. We block all the TXcc type hands he could lead the flop with. And like I said he's basically only leading flop for value. That being said, if he has JTs and QTs gii along with maybe 3ish combos of sets, then we'd be gii pretty okay I guess. I'm not convinced it's higher EV than flatting though, and getting to make decisions OTR. Also backdoor flush is backdoor, so I don't think we miss out on much value against straights, and we get to put more money in against QT when we hit, and less when we miss.

Edit: We have 57.5% equity against a range of QTs/JTs/88/98cc. But again, I think we likely can do better by flatting turn. I'm not going to
do a huge long EV calc for it atm though lol.

44 seems really optimistic, but I dunno

I don't like the 44 hand. Villain shows up with JJ QQ maybe even TT here a lot and you still have the BTN to act. I think you got really lucky on this one. You can only beat A high. I guess his plan was to hope he could make the small pairs fold. The rest looks about right.

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I didn't really mention MP's tendencies, but I'll just make a general statement here: People aren't making even marginally thin value bets OTR most of the time, especially into MW pots. TT is quite possibly the only value hand in his range here, since I think most of his Kx will bet the turn. Based on play so far, I didn't think he would bet QQ/JJ.

But even if he does, with our read that BTN folds 100%, we only need to be good against about 24% of MP's range. He really doesn't need much air to balance out a value range of TT-QQ (18 combos). If he has 6 combos of air we can call. And I'm pretty confident about the JJ/QQ, so imo if he has ANY air then we can call, since I think he only value bets TT (3 combos).



Thanks for input guys!!

 

[duggs]

AQ, thats a weirdly specific read but given that seems fine.

TT, well i mean his range pre flop doesn't = his range for almost potting it on the flop, if he had bet 1/2 then we wouldn't be talking about this and that bet sizing allows us to make an exploitative fold, as all the worse hands in his pre flop range play the flop differently.

KTs, why are we giving him credit for being good in ep if his limping range is basically bad suited broadways? if he has QTs even in his range then he also has QJcc swell 9T/8T/JT we all free roll.

running into one of the 3 combos of QTs just isn't a big concern here and putting money in v Tx is awesome. I'm also not convinced he can't have 88/77 or that he finds a fold with bad draws like 2pair/pair+gutter

 

[duggs]

but equally you can't say people don't ever vbet hands in multiway pots but they have moderate bluffing frequencies