Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

[Matt Vaughan]

Ha. Well said.

And these are 1/2 online, but it plays something like a mix between an online game and a live 1/2 game.

 

[Blobweird123]

Having sweated a few times and seeing the dynamics of these games, I can't really say that any of the above is bad. AJ 2pr 3handed seems a bit nitty on the turn, but that's about it.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

A9 can't possibly be good imo.

 

[Blobweird123]

It's closer than you make it seem. It definitely does look like he checks set on flop, turns boat. But i've seen quite a few airballs on there previously. So it can't be horribad either.

 

[stately7]

JJ – bet flop 11BB I think. Don’t mind the river action, but he may have folded to more pressure otf or turn.

AKo – turn is a bit gross for your hand although nice to get nut flush draw on it, so I like the way you played it. I like a x/c on the river here, especially if the sizing is fairly small, which it was.

More a bit later!

 

[duggs]

KQ, it depends whether he only c/c draws or if he has some AK/AQ hands in his range (or even weaker Ax) and whether he will call a small river bet with them, we can bet like 1/3 pot as an alternative and fold 100% of his range rather than beat like 80% if thats the case.

64s river seems pretty meh, doubt we are ever behind, but allowing chops to potentially jam river is pretty scary. flop is probably where I raise by default, especially with the Jx/pp heavy ranges that are rarely going to like any turn card.

KQ, I'm more concerned with bad paired hands betting because they don't want to face a bet. hands like 22/33/5x/6x and a rare 8x sometime takes this line, that being said, sick price. and its really good we don't block any flush draws.

 

[duggs]

K9hh is yuuuuck but dunno what else to do, worst case scenario is our hearts being dead, which happens a bunch. don't think CO has that many flush draws given line, but i play it the same.

A4dd, do you think jamming turn gets some Ax to fold, or some worse fds to call? love the flop line, turn is yuck since SPR isn't nice, river looks like a fold.

T9cc i play it exactly the same in a limped pot.

55 c/f river

JJ, v those stats id default to cbet flop, river seems a bit optimistic given stack size and stats.

AK I'm either leading turn or defo leading river. river is close with his sizing but we can put him pretty squarely on Ax with his line and range, so since most of those expect to chop and we only lose to an unlikely AQ or weirdly played quads i want to raise river. might be too thin i dunno, but i give him no flushes, no Jx.

AJ looks fine wp

QJ, seems fine but i don't think 6x+ is ever folding, so just bet like 11bb and save those 5bb.

A9 looks fine to me, flopped sets are really unlikely, 2pair etc will bet. i play it the same. expect to see weird draws and 9T J9 turn up a lot.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

KQ, it depends whether he only c/c draws or if he has some AK/AQ hands in his range (or even weaker Ax) and whether he will call a small river bet with them, we can bet like 1/3 pot as an alternative and fold 100% of his range rather than beat like 80% if thats the case.

64s river seems pretty meh, doubt we are ever behind, but allowing chops to potentially jam river is pretty scary. flop is probably where I raise by default, especially with the Jx/pp heavy ranges that are rarely going to like any turn card.

KQ, I'm more concerned with bad paired hands betting because they don't want to face a bet. hands like 22/33/5x/6x and a rare 8x sometime takes this line, that being said, sick price. and its really good we don't block any flush draws.

Really good points on first KQ and 64. For 64 I felt like raising flop just folds out weak Jx, but that might not even be true, and you're right about runouts beings terrible for the ranges we're ahead of. For the second KQ, I was OOP, so we x/c. I understand how us being in position could have changed things, though.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

K9hh is yuuuuck but dunno what else to do, worst case scenario is our hearts being dead, which happens a bunch. don't think CO has that many flush draws given line, but i play it the same.

A4dd, do you think jamming turn gets some Ax to fold, or some worse fds to call? love the flop line, turn is yuck since SPR isn't nice, river looks like a fold.

T9cc i play it exactly the same in a limped pot.

55 c/f river

JJ, v those stats id default to cbet flop, river seems a bit optimistic given stack size and stats.

AK I'm either leading turn or defo leading river. river is close with his sizing but we can put him pretty squarely on Ax with his line and range, so since most of those expect to chop and we only lose to an unlikely AQ or weirdly played quads i want to raise river. might be too thin i dunno, but i give him no flushes, no Jx.

AJ looks fine wp

QJ, seems fine but i don't think 6x+ is ever folding, so just bet like 11bb and save those 5bb.

A9 looks fine to me, flopped sets are really unlikely, 2pair etc will bet. i play it the same. expect to see weird draws and 9T J9 turn up a lot.

A4dd, Trying to get him to fold better Ax was a reason to jam turn, but I just didn't really have a good sense for this player. So I can't really say.

AK, I can def see leading river, and a value raise on the river actually did cross my mind briefly but I decided I thought it was too thin. Not because he has much Jx or flushes or straights, but because he might not be able to call with any Ax on this type of board.

AJ, wasn't sure if I was being way too nitty, but it's just hard for him to value-raise worse. And I don't see him having a ton of air - just sucks that we don't block Ah. So he can have Axhh and think raising it is good.

A9, why do we think 2 pairs def bet on a pretty dry board, but T9 and J9 won't? He hates every turn card essentially if he has TP. And I'm not convinced that he takes a mega-aggro line with a bricked draw, but doesn't even bet the flop? Plus if he does, 76 gets there too lol. Like if we give him all JT, 98, 88, 76, and 44, we're like 39% so it's a marginally +EV call getting 2:1. But I don't think he's necessarily jamming > 100 bb with air. After taking this line. And I just don't think he has J9 in his range after flop action.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Admittedly, I think the river play is pure spew - literally me trying to find air in his range with all the missed draws, where I don't think there is any. More looking for thoughts on flop and turn play. I think I'm getting the right price to call the turn, but it kind of depends on how many clean outs we think we have...

CO: 179.5 BB (VPIP: 45.70, PFR: 18.22, 3Bet Preflop: 6.91, Hands: 1,727)
BTN: 11.5 BB (VPIP: 39.88, PFR: 17.14, 3Bet Preflop: 5.68, Hands: 2,715)
SB: 216 BB (VPIP: 28.44, PFR: 12.85, 3Bet Preflop: 3.22, Hands: 3,194)
Hero (BB): 446 BB
UTG: 112 BB (VPIP: 32.07, PFR: 19.10, 3Bet Preflop: 7.38, Hands: 3,221)
UTG+1: 80 BB (VPIP: 21.83, PFR: 6.34, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 145)
MP: 102 BB (VPIP: 36.57, PFR: 19.94, 3Bet Preflop: 5.58, Hands: 7,611)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:diamond: 7:diamond:

fold, fold, MP raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (9.5 BB, 3 players) A:diamond: 8:diamond: T:heart:
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets 3 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, CO calls 7 BB

Turn: (29.5 BB, 2 players) 9:heart:
Hero bets 16 BB, CO raises to 41 BB, Hero calls 25 BB

River: (111.5 BB, 2 players) 4:spade:
Hero checks, CO bets 25 BB, Hero calls 25 BB



I snapped it off, but I'm not convinced it's +EV, given price. Thoughts on pre and flop play?

SB: 118 BB (VPIP: 45.72, PFR: 18.36, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 1,652)
BB: 50 BB (VPIP: 40.01, PFR: 17.03, 3Bet Preflop: 5.61, Hands: 2,642)
UTG: 168.5 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 13.01, 3Bet Preflop: 3.13, Hands: 3,133)
MP: 368 BB (VPIP: 36.72, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 5.62, Hands: 7,536)
Hero (CO): 208.5 BB
BTN: 132 BB (VPIP: 32.25, PFR: 19.38, 3Bet Preflop: 7.57, Hands: 3,076)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:diamond: Q:heart:

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, SB raises to 12 BB, fold, Hero raises to 34 BB, fold, SB calls 22 BB

Flop: (72 BB, 2 players) 5:club: T:heart: J:club:
SB bets 84 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 84 BB

Turn: (240 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond:

River: (240 BB, 2 players) K:diamond:



Read is that he has reggy stats, seems half-decent, but tends to spazz vs. me. He has cold-called my open raise in the blinds with J2s and floated on a 9-high board before, and done similar. He's been 3betting me a lot this session, I hadn't played back at all yet. Thoughts on flop play? Once I check flop and he calls turn, I sized small OTR to induce some spazz.

BTN: 106.5 BB (VPIP: 40.47, PFR: 16.94, 3Bet Preflop: 5.78, Hands: 1,929)
SB: 97.5 BB (VPIP: 37.17, PFR: 20.37, 3Bet Preflop: 5.83, Hands: 6,890)
Hero (BB): 103 BB
CO: 124.5 BB (VPIP: 20.65, PFR: 15.52, 3Bet Preflop: 8.51, Hands: 803)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:diamond: K:heart:

CO raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Flop: (18.5 BB, 2 players) 6:heart: 2:spade: K:spade:
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: (18.5 BB, 2 players) 9:club:
Hero bets 13 BB, CO calls 13 BB

River: (44.5 BB, 2 players) 7:diamond:
Hero bets 17 BB, CO raises to 102.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 64 BB and is all-in

 

[JOEBOB69]

T7 looks fine until river c/c. QQ is fine. KK I bet bigger on the river.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

With KK I'm not looking to get a call though - I'm trying to induce. Can we really induce as much spazz by betting 30bb with only 50bb behind? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. He's not a terribad player - he def thinks a bit, and notices bet-sizing here. He just tends to spazz vs. me in particular and prob some of the other more-decent regs as well.

 

[DunningKruger]

T7 hand is a mess. Heck of a 4bet there with QQ. Flop decision is just a stove question really. I'd expect to see JJ/TT a fair bit but I don't really know how these games play or where they're played. KK is a flop bet, not just as a default but also in this instance imo. Stacks get a bit awkward that hand don't they. If he's bluffing with the river jam then ballsy play I suppose given the amazing price you're getting. Or just stupid.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Always. For instance if dentists make their money from unhealthy teeth, should I really trust a product that 4 out of 5 of them recommend??

Also I don't know what stakes these hands are.

T7 hand is a mess. Heck of a 4bet there with QQ. Flop decision is just a stove question really. I'd expect to see JJ/TT a fair bit but I don't really know how these games play or where they're played. KK is a flop bet, not just as a default but also in this instance imo. Stacks get a bit awkward that hand don't they. If he's bluffing with the river jam then ballsy play I suppose given the amazing price you're getting. Or just stupid.

Ha. Well said.

And these are 1/2 online, but it plays something like a mix between an online game and a live 1/2 game.

It's tough to describe it much further than that without going into extreme details about particular players, so I'm trying to just give individual player reads when I have them. It plays somewhat passively like a live, low-stakes game, but many people have much higher percentages of air in their betting and raising ranges in a lot of situations.

T7 hand is a mess... agreed. But before the river? Care to elaborate? I felt like flop could be a call or raise, but didn't seem like a fold. Turn felt standard to me, but I could be wrong I suppose?

I'm not the biggest fan of my 4b myself, I think I should be flatting probably 100% of the time, but I have no idea what you think I should be doing differently based on your comment. Can you say more? I have to admit I got a bit lost because of my 4b - I don't know what he's realistically flatting OOP there. But it's tough to see him doing a stop and go with AK in a 4b pot, so it seems like a fold on the flop I think.

I agree on KK. Just because we have a weird dynamic doesn't mean I shouldn't be betting. If anything, it's even more of a reason to bet, since flop spazz is pretty likely, whether it be in the form of zero-equity floats or raises. I could be wrong but I assume you're just saying stacks get awkward so I feel stupid about not betting the flop? Can you add more to that? And yeah, he's not exactly "good," and he makes completely unjustifiable plays against me on a regular basis. He showed up with TT there, and I have no idea if he was trying to get me to fold JJ/QQ or get me to spazz-call A-high somehow, or if just didn't know wtf he was doing.

 

[Ubercroz]

T7: preflop I think folding is fine there. I'm not a huge fan of calling there, OOP and villain has a tight enough raising range we just may be behind. Youve got deep stack, so calling is better than a raise. overall I think folding is often better, but Im not completely against it.

Flop: I like that check raise, looks strong and theres a lot of equity in that hand. He calls, which is a little disturbing. I dont see a problem on the flop, donking into him is not great, check calling is no good if the heart comes then themaction is likely dead. folding is not an option at all.

Turn: betting is fine, probably ideal. I don't really like calling his turn raise. You have shown some strength in this hand and he is not leaving. I think a fold or a 3bet is better. Again have to consider the stack sizes. Do you really want to 3bet here deep with a hand that has only moderate value given the action? Probably not. Folding might be best here. You have outs but a number arent clean so you just are in a precarious spot with a hand that is reasonably likely to improve to second best.

River: meh, sick vakue bet. I dont know you are 20% to win here. Its close and I love to call the river so Im calling here.

 

[JOEBOB69]

T7s pre flop calling>folding>squeezing
QQ Prob should be a flat most often. I think you do have to 4bet this some though, for balance. I don't think villain would jam a set here on the flop. He would c/r. looks like KK+AJ+ to me with this stop and go.
KK i still don't mind the check on the flop. I prob bet 60% here or so and check the other 40%. You said you had a read on him for spazzing( and i guess you did ) still my default here would be bet ~3/4-pot on the river.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

@Uber: Thanks for the in-depth thoughts. The only things I disagree with is folding the turn and calling the river. I think we have to call the turn even with the possibility of dirty outs, because we're getting such an insane price. Calling the river was pure spew in my mind - what air can he ever have at this point?

@JB: I think preflop is pretty close between calling and folding, so it's prob good to fold unless I'm playing my A game (which I apparently wasn't, lol). Being even on my B+ game might turn flatting pre into a marginally -EV play. The reason I snapped with QQ in-game was because of AJ, but I wonder why he ever jams it. Is he that worried about us checking it back with AK?

 

[Ubercroz]

@Uber: Thanks for the in-depth thoughts. The only things I disagree with is folding the turn and calling the river. I think we have to call the turn even with the possibility of dirty outs, because we're getting such an insane price. Calling the river was pure spew in my mind - what air can he ever have...?

On the vriver I think your right, I wasnt saying you SHOULD call just that, as a calling station, I likely WOULD call.

On the turn, are you really getting that great of odds when you end up second best? Maybe yes. Im still not happy about it, and I think there are better spots to get your money out of the villain.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Ah, I understand (clearly, since I did in fact call haha). As for the turn, I'm getting 3:1 and I believe I'm getting a bet out of villain when I hit. The real issue is how much do I make when I hit and my hand is good, and how much do I lose when I hit and my hand is no good, and how often do they happen relative to each other (for the sake of argument, we'll take my crying calls out of the equation). Unfortunately, that's involved-enough math that I don't think I want to get into it right now. You could certainly be right about making second best being pretty bad though - he did in fact show up with a straight here, with hearts to go with it.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

10d7d: Fold pre unless you have some serious reads on villain(s). As played, river is tough (folding pre avoids these spots). I'm not familiar with the player, so it's hard for me to say if there is air in his range and what his sizing means. But you are getting a sick price even for middle pair/shitty kicker if there is any possibility villain is bluffing.

QQ: I'm not a huge fan of the preflop 4bet (unless it's a shove) in 100bb games since stack sizes get awkward. Probably just flat his 3bet, especially since you have position. Postflop - not sure. What does his range look like? 1010+/AKcc/AQcc? Maybe KQcc also?

KK: If villain tends to spazz, I might prefer a flop bet/turn check/river bet line instead to make it look like a standard cbet-with-nothing situation on a semi-dry board. As played, it actually looks a bit like you connected because of your sizing. Nice sizing on the river.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

As per this, https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...ind-up-1-2-nl-beyond-233167/post-2325055.html I'll be playing tonight, and very well may put my name down for the 2/5 game if the action seems good. At most I would be risking like $800ish. Would definitely suck to lose a large-ish pot and then just leave when I couldn't rebuy up to $500 or something. But I think I'll be playing so tight that I should still get a decent amount of table time, which right now is what it's really about. I think I'm likely a favorite in the game, so yes there is the +EV side, but getting exposure to the higher level is honestly half of it.

If I do end up playing 2/5 I'll definitely be giving an update. I'm obviously not rolled for it (heck, I've only recently become legitimately rolled for 1/2), but:

- If I don't run good, it's still a hit that I can afford to take to my bankroll
- I'm not going to be playing 2/5 all the time (even if I win)
- If I do happen to run at or above EV, this will help my BR significantly, as well as help me improve faster

Hopefully I won't be a nervous wreck (at least not for more than a couple hours)... Wish me luck!!

 

[Mr Sandbag]

Good luck - I'm sure I'll see you there!

 

[Jillychemung]

Good Luck!!!

 

[redwards92]

Good luck man! heaterrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr one timeeeeee

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

Good Luck, good luck