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cguru:
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
"On talent alone, Tagovailoa would be the top-ranked quarterback in this draft class, even above Burrow, according to McShay. His 94.6 Total QBR is No. 1 in the nation, he displays elite accuracy -- especially downfield -- and is advanced in getting through his progressions. But of course, it's about much more than just talent. The lefty suffered a significant hip injury in mid-November, adding a level of cloudiness to his draft projections."
Just saw this on espn, figured Id post it.
Just saw this on espn, figured Id post it.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
Well that's a recent article. You asked for anything, and when I saw it I figure I'd drop it in here.
Also, espn does not say that. It's tua, burrow, and fields in that order for qbr. Same order for both raw and adjusted. That's a injured tua vs. those 2 also...
Also, espn does not say that. It's tua, burrow, and fields in that order for qbr. Same order for both raw and adjusted. That's a injured tua vs. those 2 also...
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
""Tua is more explosive, Tua is quicker, Tua is probably more Drew Brees like than Joe Burrow," Brooks said. "Joe Burrow is more Tony Romo-esque, where he can make plays inside and outside the pocket. It just kind of comes down to styles, but if you’re just talking about from a pure talent standpoint, Tua’s arm talent exceeds what Joe Burrow (has). Joe Burrow has guts and grit and all those other things, Tua has outstanding character, so if it just comes down to the deciding factor being talent, Tua’s more talented than Joe Burrow. It doesn't necessarily mean he’ll be the better player, but (the injuries) would be the thing that you could ding him for.""
There is another from 8 hours ago, about why Detroit should take tua at number 3. Brooks is a former db in the nfl, and is a scout now.
There is another from 8 hours ago, about why Detroit should take tua at number 3. Brooks is a former db in the nfl, and is a scout now.
Ice Wolf
Legend
Bronze Level
I know I said I was done with this thread but damn I must be losing my ability to read or something because if you look up college QBR on ESPN it says
Burrow 94.9 Tua 94.8
that ain’t worth arguing over but the more you post the more I question my ability to read.
McShay also says in an interview with Steven A. Smith that he thinks Burrow is the most NFL ready QB which is what this whole thread is about. Never mind though you’re right McShay likes him better I’m done.
Burrow 94.9 Tua 94.8
that ain’t worth arguing over but the more you post the more I question my ability to read.
McShay also says in an interview with Steven A. Smith that he thinks Burrow is the most NFL ready QB which is what this whole thread is about. Never mind though you’re right McShay likes him better I’m done.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
You're not taking into account his injury. Everyone discussing this on TV and other media take that into account if it's said or not, because that's the big thing. I'm not sure why you're not getting that aspect. They talk about what is, as of right now. Burrow is known, Tua is not. Tua could be 1 percent of himself or 100 percent come time he is healed.
You're going by just this year's qbr? OK then. Even there he is 0.1 more than tua... a injured Tua who had negative run qbr focus statistics because he literally was playing on half a healthy leg. Burrow is the better choice given tuas unknown factor, but both 100 percent healthy, it's hands down tua. Mcshay likes burrow better perhaps because his status is known. He thinks tua is more talented, like just about every expert on the planet, but they have to consider that injury. Show me something where the person says peak Burrow is better than peak tua. Besides that, it's not arguing, it's discussion... which is what forums are for.
You're going by just this year's qbr? OK then. Even there he is 0.1 more than tua... a injured Tua who had negative run qbr focus statistics because he literally was playing on half a healthy leg. Burrow is the better choice given tuas unknown factor, but both 100 percent healthy, it's hands down tua. Mcshay likes burrow better perhaps because his status is known. He thinks tua is more talented, like just about every expert on the planet, but they have to consider that injury. Show me something where the person says peak Burrow is better than peak tua. Besides that, it's not arguing, it's discussion... which is what forums are for.
Ice Wolf
Legend
Bronze Level
Dude you are unbelievable. I have talked repeatedly about the injury, I get it. I even said in my post the QBR wasn’t worth arguing over. How do you include Fields on your list for QBR and then accuse me of only looking at 2019?
What you don’t seem to get which is what JJP was pointing out is that talent alone does not make you more NFL ready. You argued for accuracy and touch I argued against it and the experts all saying Tua was better.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
Not you taking injury into account... you not taking into account that media already has taken it into account for their opinion on the draft and who the best prospects.
Fields whole career is in that stat. I should have excluded it because it's 1 starting?
If you're not including talent which I assume you mean by physical talent, then Tua is better natural skills also and is better at progressive reads. It's literally bullet points in his scouting report.
You're telling me that a guy who is less talented(doesn't mean he isn't talented), and who had 1 good year out of nowhere after a lot of changes were done with staff, which screams that he is at least to some extent carried by that, is more NFL ready than someone who since middle school was considered great, and every time he went up a level, he was instantly great there too. They are comparing burrow to romo(romo wasn't bad) and tua, even injured, to brees. You either not beliving it, or for some reason not wanting to is fine and is your right, but it's all there.
The point of this thread was to agree with the op, or convince him otherwise. Why are you being so anal about me doing that?
Fields whole career is in that stat. I should have excluded it because it's 1 starting?
If you're not including talent which I assume you mean by physical talent, then Tua is better natural skills also and is better at progressive reads. It's literally bullet points in his scouting report.
You're telling me that a guy who is less talented(doesn't mean he isn't talented), and who had 1 good year out of nowhere after a lot of changes were done with staff, which screams that he is at least to some extent carried by that, is more NFL ready than someone who since middle school was considered great, and every time he went up a level, he was instantly great there too. They are comparing burrow to romo(romo wasn't bad) and tua, even injured, to brees. You either not beliving it, or for some reason not wanting to is fine and is your right, but it's all there.
The point of this thread was to agree with the op, or convince him otherwise. Why are you being so anal about me doing that?
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FrothyGoodness
Visionary
Silver Level
Will never happen, but the Lions should take a shot at trading up for Burrow. Staffords beat up and ready to see his way out. The Lions actually have a decent receiving squad and Kerryon isnt a terrible back. Now everybody knows the Lions are invested into Stafford until the day he dies and even then theyll try and resign him.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
Bengals aren't giving up that pick. Lions either take the dt from auburn or bama, or they take a qb. If something comes to light before draft I could see them taking Tua because Stafford will be around a few more years where Tua could get healthy. Depends on how much they want to gamble. If Detroit had the 2 instead of the 3 then maybe they could get that pick off of the Bengals because they would be getting chase young, and the extras from the trade. They could go after lawrence next year which they would probably get because I don't see them being any better this coming year. I'm not high on lawrence, but everyone else seems to like him.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
I don't think they will either, but it's an option that would make sense. Lions aren't big on sense though.
I could see them trading the pick to the chargers. Makes sense. Rivers isn't going to play much more, and that trade would let them get Tua ahead of Miami and let him learn and heal. I don't think Miami or the chargers have much interest in herbert. Not ahead of Tua anyway. Most likely between those 2 teams, both of those qb go to one or the other.
Actually you could throw Carolina in the mix in that scenario too. Cams getting older and injuries are adding up. New coaching there too. Partial rebuild time. They have r he 7th pick so all 3 of them will likely be after Tua or herbert.
I could see them trading the pick to the chargers. Makes sense. Rivers isn't going to play much more, and that trade would let them get Tua ahead of Miami and let him learn and heal. I don't think Miami or the chargers have much interest in herbert. Not ahead of Tua anyway. Most likely between those 2 teams, both of those qb go to one or the other.
Actually you could throw Carolina in the mix in that scenario too. Cams getting older and injuries are adding up. New coaching there too. Partial rebuild time. They have r he 7th pick so all 3 of them will likely be after Tua or herbert.
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TDTODDY
Rock Star
Silver Level
Burrow looks like a guy who could take over for any playoff team and not get in the way. Pro style mechanics and defense reading ability. Let's see how Tua looks with a Miami offense that has 2 or 3 nfl caliber playmakers and shaky front office. This isn't Alabama anymore!
Kenzie 96
Legend
Loyaler
He had a really good final college season & won the Heisman, pretty sure every previous Heisman winning QB is already in the pro fooball hall of fame. Fact that he had to transfer to get on the field is irrelevant, most HOF guys had trouble making their college teams & every guy who had a really good final season is a lock. Added plus, he will most likely be drafted by one of the consistently worse run teams in pro football. Book him Dano.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
Tebow, Wuerffel, rg3, Crouch, Leinhart, Ware, Torretta, weinke, white, manzel, those are just the ones I can think of off top of my head that aren't hall of famers, or even OK for that matter. Doesn't include the ones in the league right now that won't be either. There is probably a longer list of qbs who won the Heisman who were duds, than ones who were at least OK in the pros.
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Ice Wolf
Legend
Bronze Level
Sorry I had to step back for a day, whole pot and kettle thing gets on my nerves sometimes.
Synopsis I am just trying to tell you, and it is obvious now that you don't actually know what the term NFL ready means. It has nothing to do with injury. Does it have to do with physical talent yes, but a lot more. I am not going into any more detail than that because people have tried to tell you all over this thread. Earlier you said something about Todd McShay saying that Tua was more talented, and yes he did, but in an interview after saying that Tua has more talent this same guy said minutes later that Burrow is more NFL ready. That is the original argument and what people are trying to tell you. Have you made some good points about Tua, yeah. Have you straightened a few people out about their misconceptions on Heisman winners ect., yeah but just try to take what we are trying to point out to you and learn something new yourself. More talented and more NFL ready do not mean the same thing.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
He is more NFL ready compared to a unknown tua... and that's the aspect you're either not getting or that I'm misreading in what you are saying. Mcshay, or any other expert has that into consideration when they make their lists and give their analysis. My side of this debate is purely saying it's too early to give a valid take on it. If tua somehow looks 90 percent or something at Combine time, you're going to be hearing about how he is the best option at qb. For that matter if Herbert Excels at the combine he could jump a unknown tua. And who is we? No one's talking about it outside of me and you. You have people coming in saying Burrow is great and it's mostly empty posts to keep their post count up (doesn't mean their opinion isn't valid). There isn't one thing you can say Burrow is better at than a healthy tua besides not getting injured, which is a big deal. Tua has been groomed for the NFL since before he hit puberty , he is perhaps the best college qb in history in terms of decision making, his football iq is off the charts, and as I said before he isn't a system success which until proven otherwise, burrow is. Burrow was completely average the prior year. How do you not take that into account? Do the Bengals have a good track record with qbs? Tua has been great over half his life, at every level, immediately, regardless of systems. Every level immediately... has burrow? Nope, quite the opposite. For whatever reason you don't see that, but say I'm wrong because I don't agree with you? Talk about pot and kettle dude. The point of this thread is to present a debate other than the ops initial feeling. I'm the only one doing that.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
Another aspect we haven't discussed really is that Joe Brady had a lot of control over that offence, and it showed in the video where they would occasionally be shown on tv. He was doing great all the talking, and all the calling. It was all job audition. He ran those scores up, and it paid off for him. He was there just that 1 year and is off to the Panthers now. Tua wasn't in a system that would allow that. Saban shuts down shop. Not saying burrow didn't have any part of it, but Brady should be (he is actually, that's why he got the Panthers gig after a year, but not to the general public) getting a ton of that credit.
Ice Wolf
Legend
Bronze Level
All of this still does not mean that he is more NFL ready dude. I am saying you don't understand that NFL ready and more talented do not mean the same thing. Learn what the term means. The injury part is being considered, by these guys I get it, but once again has nothing to do with more NFL ready. One of the biggest knocks on Tua is his decision making and not getting rid of the football when he should, saving his body, which Burrow does. You want to say that the OC made a huge difference with Burrow, tell me what type of system was he running? Different experts believe different things about the two is the point I was trying to make about go find someone who still says Tua is better. Hell you had to go digging for a scout that nobody had ever heard of. Empty arguments, you have repeatedly said things that are opinion and have no way of being proven: perhaps the best decision making QB of all time? Tell me what play is Tua most known for? Your probably going to say the TD against UGA in the national championship game as a freshman and I and most other people would agree. What happened on the play before that? I'll give you a hint: he pissed Saban off. Tua's great dude but he ain't what you are trying to make him out to be. But all of this doesn't matter. At the end of the day its freaking NFL ready vs more talented and you just wanting to argue about an injury being the difference in these two terms and it ain't.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
So someone more talented... and who has been incredible from the jump at every level, even dealing with the revolving door that is Alabama coaching staff, who has the size, arm, iq, and natural instincts isn't more "NFL ready" than someone who was average the year prior, got a lot of stats because the offense was designed by a really young offensive genius who was basically there for a job application to be a oc in the nfl? He has talent but he is much a product like hurts was with kiffen. Not comparing those 2, Burrow is light years ahead of hurts passing.
Tua decision making is one of his biggest perks. Where are you seeing people are knocking him for it?
I didn't go digging for anything, I was looking for information on Herbert that day and saw that. How many scouts have a typical fan heard of exactly?
They run a spread rpo based hybrid scheme that Brady made. He called all their red zone plays, and all 3rd and 4th downs the first few weeks then they let him kind of take control in the booth. He was also the one who talked to Burrow on the phone on the sidelines between possessions.
You aren't presenting anything, you're just saying no. Maybe I have over looked it but i don't even recall you saying why he is more ready then a healthy Tua or even herber for that matter.
Tua decision making is one of his biggest perks. Where are you seeing people are knocking him for it?
I didn't go digging for anything, I was looking for information on Herbert that day and saw that. How many scouts have a typical fan heard of exactly?
They run a spread rpo based hybrid scheme that Brady made. He called all their red zone plays, and all 3rd and 4th downs the first few weeks then they let him kind of take control in the booth. He was also the one who talked to Burrow on the phone on the sidelines between possessions.
You aren't presenting anything, you're just saying no. Maybe I have over looked it but i don't even recall you saying why he is more ready then a healthy Tua or even herber for that matter.
Ice Wolf
Legend
Bronze Level
There is obviously no getting through to you and at this point this is just a gigantic waste of time. Go back and watch any of the Georgia v Bama games and they talk about him not getting rid of the ball when he should constantly. It’s in a lot of the stuff you see when people talk compare the two, Tua takes a lot more unnecessary hits man and just about every time I have seen anything comparing the two they bring it up. NFL owners don’t want to see the QB’s taking a lot of unnecessary hits. Go back and look at the play that ended his season, Tua already knows he’s hurt, he’s up at that point by 28, and he has plenty of time to throw the ball away before he gets hit but he holds onto it. NFL owners don’t want to see their QB taking unnecessary hits like this it’s why we have all the rules for protecting the QBs now. I don’t know how you have missed my points about why Burrow is more NFL ready but I’m not listing them all again for more wasted time, go back and read the post, I am listening what the experts are saying not my personal beliefs. I won’t be checking this thread again though because reading what you have to say and you just reading over my arguments and ignoring them or just not understanding things has become exhausting and pointless.
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Synopsis
Legend
Silver Level
I could say the same to you. You cherry pick what you respond to. Any time a qb gets sacked they say he should have thrown it away, but your example is one of the worst you could do. His hip injury was from behind, on a fluke, freak accident. He wasn't staring down danger and decided to just take a hit. I do think that's your best critique of his play though, but you can easily argue that's how great plays are made. Look at farve, or rodgers, or someone Tua is compared to a bit in wilson.
You say you're listing what experts say and not your own beliefs??? You can use expert opinions as source material but the point is what you think, from your study of them both. You haven't said anything besides "experts say" though, and you haven't countered anything I've said outside of the decision making just now, which I don't agree with, nor do the scouting reports. If someone gets injured they will always point out the trail of how they got there. If he hadn't gotten injured there, on that 1 single play, and finished recovering from his ankle, which was also a fluke thing, you wouldn't hear about it at all. Same with any athlete. He shouldn't have been playing at all in that situation, nor the privious year.
Don't reply again, I don't particularly care, but if you do tell me why burrow was nothing the prior year. Name a qb who had 1 good year out of the blue who became anything. You'll have a issue with that, because in just about all of those cases they were a product of the play calling and what was around them. Burrow is good, a top prospect for sure, but he isn't better, or more ready than Tua would be if he were healthy. I think at the combine Herbert will look just as good as burrow.
It kind of humorous you called names earlier, and you're the one saying people don't know shit, but then you act like you're the one being attacked. You don't present anything outside of experts say, and I kind of feel like you've only seen highlight tapes. Burrow had a flash year. Tuas whole career has been immediately great. Burrows stats would be lower than Tua with the same amount of attempts, he would have less tds also. His rtg is lower than tua (even injured). Tua has a quicker release, a stronger arm, better placmeet and touch. You can argue accuracy, but I believe that was due to the system. Mccoy has the highest percentage in college history, was he any good? No, he was a product of his enviroment. Burrow was average average best the prior year. That screams that he is a product. Tua has been good always, every level, and has had to deal with new systems every year. Please address that... how can you be more ready when you've proven you're up to the task over and over. General consensus is his football iq is better, his reads are better and faster. He is a few inches shorter, but still of NFL size. What exactly makes burrow more ready given all of that?
You say you're listing what experts say and not your own beliefs??? You can use expert opinions as source material but the point is what you think, from your study of them both. You haven't said anything besides "experts say" though, and you haven't countered anything I've said outside of the decision making just now, which I don't agree with, nor do the scouting reports. If someone gets injured they will always point out the trail of how they got there. If he hadn't gotten injured there, on that 1 single play, and finished recovering from his ankle, which was also a fluke thing, you wouldn't hear about it at all. Same with any athlete. He shouldn't have been playing at all in that situation, nor the privious year.
Don't reply again, I don't particularly care, but if you do tell me why burrow was nothing the prior year. Name a qb who had 1 good year out of the blue who became anything. You'll have a issue with that, because in just about all of those cases they were a product of the play calling and what was around them. Burrow is good, a top prospect for sure, but he isn't better, or more ready than Tua would be if he were healthy. I think at the combine Herbert will look just as good as burrow.
It kind of humorous you called names earlier, and you're the one saying people don't know shit, but then you act like you're the one being attacked. You don't present anything outside of experts say, and I kind of feel like you've only seen highlight tapes. Burrow had a flash year. Tuas whole career has been immediately great. Burrows stats would be lower than Tua with the same amount of attempts, he would have less tds also. His rtg is lower than tua (even injured). Tua has a quicker release, a stronger arm, better placmeet and touch. You can argue accuracy, but I believe that was due to the system. Mccoy has the highest percentage in college history, was he any good? No, he was a product of his enviroment. Burrow was average average best the prior year. That screams that he is a product. Tua has been good always, every level, and has had to deal with new systems every year. Please address that... how can you be more ready when you've proven you're up to the task over and over. General consensus is his football iq is better, his reads are better and faster. He is a few inches shorter, but still of NFL size. What exactly makes burrow more ready given all of that?