Is the card shuffling in online poker truly random?

[JBGoode]

Which leads to another discussion.... how not only online poker is rigged, but how life is rigged as well.

Well I wouldnt sit around and play the victim, but find ways to exploit these disadvantages for our gain.

 

[James_Harrison]

Well I wouldnt sit around and play the victim, but find ways to exploit these disadvantages for our gain.

Sure you can, but ill let you in on a little secret. Its not what you know or have studied, or even if you have tried to apply this and make it wisdom.


Its who you know.

 

[JBGoode]

Sure you can, but ill let you in on a little secret. Its not what you know or have studied, or even if you have tried to apply this and make it wisdom.


Its who you know.

I would argue that "who you know." Is just a bonus. Cause you can know anyone and everyone. If you dont understand the game on thier level. You're just someone they are nice to, in order to boost thier own success. In whatever form that might be....

That goes for poker and in life.

 

[James_Harrison]

I would argue that "who you know." Is just a bonus. Cause you can know anyone and everyone. If you dont understand the game on thier level. You're just someone they are nice to, in order to boost thier own success. In whatever form that might be....

That goes for poker and in life.

False. Not if you know everyone. You need to find someone who has some level of control over what you desire and not have them be "just nice to you to boost their own success."

Think you already knew this though.

 

[619Leafs]

I have always felt that the poker rooms hand generator is not as random as it should be. Many times the community cards always put cards with less than 5% chance to make it a bad beat for the other player. Let get real and stop with the rigged community cards.

 

[SocialBombast]

What I've seen since last September

I joined ACR last september and have been casually active mostly on weekends. Probably a total avg of less than an hour a week.

Since then I've seen at least four straight flushes that I can remember, including my ace-high spades royal flush on the flop in a freeroll. I lost track of how many quads I've seen.

I wish I had automatic odds calculator for all the hands I've witnessed because I feel I have a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing this. I have a full time job and only play casually.

I hope I've seen way more hands than I'm thinking and this is just normal variance.

 

[privesc]

I joined ACR last september and have been casually active mostly on weekends. Probably a total avg of less than an hour a week.

Since then I've seen at least four straight flushes that I can remember, including my ace-high spades royal flush on the flop in a freeroll. I lost track of how many quads I've seen.

I wish I had automatic odds calculator for all the hands I've witnessed because I feel I have a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing this. I have a full time job and only play casually.

I hope I've seen way more hands than I'm thinking and this is just normal variance.

That's crazy, I've been doing four tables at a time about 14 hours / day Monday - Friday for the past three months and I've seen two straight flushes. I've seen maybe a handful of quads.

Playing on betonline, acr personally gave me weird vibes.

 

[SocialBombast]

I give my personal opinion and I'm suddenly a shill?

I can only speak from experience man.

Are we allowed to post links to YouTube videos here?

I have a video from a fairly credible source that was recorded at the end of last year prior to the recent major ACR overhaul. It goes into detail about collusion among the same groups of players popping up at the highest stakes tables and consistently making strange plays outside the scope of ABC poker FTW.

The fact that ACR's parent company doesn't make their RNG algorithm publicly available is a massive red flag flapping in the torrential deluge of powerful, albeit circumstantial/anecdotal, evidence of manipulating monster-hand frequency. The level of extra potential income a skewed RNG would generate is difficult to to to fathom, but consider the two biggest factors at play. I apologize if this is redundant or assumed already.

1) The most obvious allure of big winnings to potential fish. They're more likely to get excited and take bigger risks when their attention is drawn to the incredibly unlikely monster hands that come out instead of long-term patterns. RAKE

2) High level honest cash game veterans who don't leverage the analytics software scourge that's been ruining the online game for years, in my hypothesis, would generate even more risk-taking behavior. Recs will notice the exodus and assume the competition has softened now that people who consistently beat them are leaving. Recs at higher levels might play more aggressively when they think the danger that the better players pose has subsided. RAKE

Please point out any flaws in this logic. I really want to be wrong. I don't want to migrate somewhere else and pay exorbitant fees to withdraw my meager winnings and deposit them somewhere else. I'm still a micro stakes player in training and I don't want to ear-**** my roll with that kind of hit. I've come a long way since I started with my backward understanding of sound strategy. I'm looking forward to the day I can earn my way, starting with from my very first $50 deposit, to 2/5 cent blinds and this is the last thing that's going to get me there.

My feelings would be best exI wanna give myself a "thumbs-up, pat-on-the-back, and a way-to-go from the label every day-lookin-boy!"

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Since at least two of my truthful posts were hastily and biasly deleted from a particular thread, I shall post some brain regurgitation yet again at/in this designated and/or referred to thread by an oppressive and/or possible financial, gainful moderation/administration…

I have at least one suggestion for unregulated sites and the other majoritively, if not all American raping, offshore, online poker sites, excluding at least PokerStars for the time being, and their fraudulent agendas.

That pertinent suggestion is: please remove the disgusting fixed card dealing code/program designed to equally disseminate money among players, curb the ‘shark’ aspect, maximize rake, and to keep players engaged/depositing funds with programmed exciting gameplay rather than employing natural (or pseudo-natural), honest poker.

Any computer program with a mathematical algorithmic based pseudorandom card shuffling/dealing is never truly one-hundred percent entropic at a radical/fundamental level and is systemically flawed if that were/was the scenario, but sadly it is not.

Integrating quantum mechanics and hardware for the dealing of cards (barring any code embedded for card manipulation) can be a viable, alternate solution, however, even with that structure I have qualms that it would be genuinely 100% random. At any rate, it would be at minimum, a leap in the direction of honest poker no matter how boring/unexciting it could be for some people.

In normal/honest poker, premium/’monster’ hands are typically splashed throughout many hands. Although in online poker and/or at ACR it is not uncommon to see multiple consecutive ‘leviathan’ hands from several players consistently. Like for example: three consecutive hands or more of at least a set or better happens regularly on/at ACR and other online poker sites for that matter.

Why in so many ongoing instances after one suffers a major/devastating loss in cash games does one get a ‘monster’ hand or premium hole cards soon after if not directly following the loss and/or possible cooler, potentially doubling if not more than doubling one’s digital chip stack, if not completely depleting one’s original buy-in, prompting a plausible rebuy-in?

Is that the fixed software at work to balance the money at the tables and/or among players to keep them engaged and/or optimistic? Hmm… Yet another pattern among many.

It is so fricking blatantly obvious. And frankly, unspeakably ugly to me.

Also, why in so many ongoing instances does one generally receive bad beats/coolers after one doubles/triples their initial buy-in?

Subscription based online poker is notorious for using card manipulation software. That is a FACT. So, why would an unethical online poker site owner not use the same tactic(s) software/code, perhaps in moderation to quell any possible suspicion, for their site to maximize rake, etcetera?

Oh, right, it does happen...... Suck me sideways...

Hmm... Is there a rake quota and any other questionable offshore, USA-facing online poker site?

Furthermore, for one’s information: specific online poker sites in the past have been known to ban and/or punish (so to type) winning players… I personally loathe the oppression of a winning/decent player at the aversive whims of distinct, swindling online poker sites.

I would like to also address the defense of seeing many more hands online when compared to offline, live poker in the argument(s) of the people that believe that online poker is not rigged/fixed. My counter argument for that is simply, if one looked/researched the amount of hands per hour at the low/medium/high stakes tables with a max of nine players at full capacity, the average amount of hands per hour is at about anywhere from perhaps maybe 50 to maybe 75 hands per hour, which is correlative to live, in the flesh card dealing…

In conclusion, any other skeptical online poker site wants to rival and become an online poker powerhouse (in an industry dominated by PokerStars) for years to come after the perhaps inevitable legalization and regulation of online poker throughout the United States of America (and not fade into a deserved fruitless oblivion and/or the metaphorical receptacle of snuffed online garbage poker sites) then I suggest utilizing HONEST, pseudorandom poker for the masses now, instead of this tainted, programmed, arcade style, rake generating, unnatural, trash online poker.

Despite it all, other distinct online poker site’s current management and ownership that will likely never happen and the industry’s standardized, fraudulent poker/poker software will theoretically prevail to proverbially line the pockets of these avaricious owners of particular online poker sites.

That is my prudent, cerebral, and honest rant for at least this intricate juncture of time.

Take it easy…

Well said Bart. But I see the same thing on pokerstars (Jokerstars). I do not believe there is truly a reliable site out there right now.

 

[sergo1203]

Many people are skeptical, but play. there is a simple solution. If you think that you are deceived, then do not play.

 

[James_Harrison]

Many people are skeptical, but play. there is a simple solution. If you think that you are deceived, then do not play.

I dont agree with this but i respect your idea. Let me try to explain.

Someone might think its rigged because of bots but might not encounter one during their session. Could they still win ?

Someone might think its rigged because cards are dealt unfairly, but being a sane person, this person leaves room for a possibility that its not,. Could they still win ?

Basically what im saying is you cant win unless you play. Your idea would save someone who thinks its rigged alot of stress though probably.

An alternative might be, dont deposit, dont support the site. If you win a bit in a freeroll take it and play with THAT.

 

[TeUnit]

Its still not rigged, if it was it would be very easy to prove. All you would need is a hud and a decent sample size then you could just analyze the outliers. But, as I say this it should have been really easy for ACR to look at the outliers and notice that a group of high win rate players all had almost identical stats.

 

[XYZ2123]

The simple answer to this question is no....

Its scientifically impossible for a RnG to be 100% random. Over time they will start to devlope patterns. As for poker this is why I believe people believe sites are "rigged" when in all reality it's not rigged. The system is just naturally flawed.

Which leads to another discussion....

Poker Stars has developed technology to make the most random RnG ever created. Which is still only around 98% random. With that said, US players are banned from playing there. Why is that? The safest, more realistic site to play on is actually banned... while sites like ACR and Global continue to run in the US with obvious issues with RnG.

Now dont get me wrong, I'm a very profitable player on Global, and a break even player on ACR. I play the same way on both, and I also agree that to larger fields, and tougher competition on ACR does contribute. Granted the beats I take on ACR and Global are extreamly unrealistic in comparison to how often they happen. That goes for giving them and taking them.

You're right. No RNG is completely random. I don't think its rigged but I'm reminded of the lack of full randomness every time I lose to runners or 4-to-a-straight or flush. At this point I can almost predict when these hands will happen. Rigged would mean that these outcomes always favor certain players, which isn't true.

On your other point, US players are not banned from Pokerstars by law, and certainly not because the government thinks players are being cheated by the RNG. The only state where online poker/gambling is explicitly illegal is Washington State. What's illegal is for US banks (and credit card companies) to engage in transactions with offshore online gambling sites. This law was passed due to pressure on congress from the casino lobby in the US. After black friday, the two biggest operators, PS and Party chose to exit the US market and Full Tilt was investigated for the corruption there (execs stealing player funds). There was also the cheating (super-user) at Absolute poker. After this, smaller sites like BOL ACR, etc popped up. That's why when you use a credit card on these sites, the transaction is listed as some other kind of international merchant, to avoid detection by banks. Also, if you deposit/withdraw via wire transfer, the money usually goes through 2 or 3 intermediary banks in the process. This is why sites now prefer Bitcoin, though cashing out through Coinbase is still problematic for Americans, which is why you have to send it through several wallets (to hide the fact that it came from a poker site).

 

[19aleks57]

Coin Card Poker hang out, as well as all ... cards go to players randomly if there is no problem with the technique ...

 

[akgross]

Trusting possibly large and reputable poker sites, it makes no sense to deceive players. All remaining small rooms are required to be questioned. Playing in little-known game rooms trust your intuition !!

 

[blueskies]

I think that poker sites simply do not make sense to deceive their customers, moreover, they are primarily interested in the honest game since they get their percentage, regardless of whether you won or lost !!!

The thing is, they get more rake when there are more coins in the middle. If most hands end preflop or end on the flop, they get very little. If the community cards come in a way that encourages action, then they get more.

You can explain anything away with "variance," but if consistently unlikely things are happening to many players compared to the frequency in which they happen in real life poker, then you gotta wonder.

As I was typing this, I just saw a dude limp and call a big raise with 53os. The raiser had AJsuited. Limper flopped a DOUBLE gutshot, ooh that's worthy of an all in right there. The raiser flopped top pair. Everything went into the middle on the flop. The raiser even turned a flush draw. Guess who wins.

Yesterday, I flopped a set, and villain had top pair and no flush or straight draws. Jd2h4h board (he KcJs). Everything went in the middle. I had a 98% win probability. I lost. Runner runner 4s for bigger FH.

Stuff like this happens extremely often. Way more than the probabilities say they "should."

To the poker masters who say everyone who suspects online is rigged is just a loser. Yes, "variance." Yes, I am a "fish." blahblahblah. A profitable fish nevertheless. Just not as profitable as I "should" be due to online magic.

 

[mkdrummey]

As far as I'm concerned the poker sites know the outcome of every hand assuming players don't fold. The only random thing is folding or making the chosen winning hand fold. The latter is difficult at the lowest stakes. I also believe there are house players (bots) and spotting them isn't easy.

 

[wermutt]

sometimes, when you are often run over and you do not analyze the game well, then stupid thoughts about the fact that the random number generator is twisted get into your head) but on the other hand, we can't check it or refute it, can we?

 

[wermutt]

As far as I'm concerned the poker sites know the outcome of every hand assuming players don't fold. The only random thing is folding or making the chosen winning hand fold. The latter is difficult at the lowest stakes. I also believe there are house players (bots) and spotting them isn't easy.

how can you be so sure?

 

[Bobbybones1950]

rng legit

I'm fairly new at this but Who would benefit from . Seems like they make enough money without fixing the Rng..Reminds me of some Crapster Friends that lose all their money and say that the casino has Bad Dice.

In casino baccarat the cards are shuffled in certain Algorithms Making the game not really random but even this is near impossible to detect :captain:

 

[kkuk]

hi.most likely,it is not a random distribution of cards,but a set of planned combinations,because in online poker, combinations are very often repeated, and in the same sequence.apparently eat random,but it is very poorly spelled out or somehow the counters are incorrectly twisted.

 

[jovan123]

hi.most likely,it is not a random distribution of cards,but a set of planned combinations,because in online poker, combinations are very often repeated, and in the same sequence.apparently eat random,but it is very poorly spelled out or somehow the counters are incorrectly twisted.

This is definitely one of the age old questions about poker but especially online poker and it hits especially hard when that random bullshit river card hits to beat your super dominating hand ... and to be honest I don't think well ever truly know the answer ..but honestly thinking with all the safe guards and inspections hitting the poker sites since the full tilt fiasco that the major sites wouldn't take a risk on something like that and I'm pretty sure that is the case..but with some of these so called honest sites with all the shit that already comes from these sites (and we all know these sites) I'd not be surprised to hear something like that from them...so basically stay away from not so reputable sites and keep your money on the bigger sites that at least you know its safer

 

[Luqitazzz]

Never! Just as I won with the last card I also lost with the last card, I took it as if I were a real dealer. At least me, Greetings.

 

[Taktik]

I can’t say for sure, but sometimes it seems that poker rooms specifically create trash situations

 

[Pokerishard]

You could take a large sample of hands and show that the distribution of the cards you’re getting isn’t normal. Like a 200k hands. Or if you have millions of hands (like by purchasing hand records) show that the distribution of results are skewed.