Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
That's my understanding too.
That's my understanding too.
okeedokalee
Glory To Ukraine
Loyaler
Why FTP lost it's licence:
From an eminent gaming lawyer
Greed is dangerous. But combine it with stupidity and arrogance, and it can be lethal.
Some of the insiders of full tilt poker appear to have taken one of the most profitable businesses ever created and needlessly run it into the ground. Along the way, they got themselves indicted and sued in gigantic civil lawsuits. And they deprived hundreds of thousands of online poker players of hundreds of millions of dollars.
All of it was unnecessary.
For anyone who has been living in a cave without an Internet connection for the last decade, Full Tilt was one of the leading online poker operators. It made far more than the largest card club in the world, without having to spend money on buildings and dealers. It did not even have the risk of losing streaks, since it never played a hand, just raked every pot.
Full Tilt’s main license was issued by the gambling Control Commission of Alderney, one of the British Channel Islands. According to Andre Wilsenach, the Commission’s executive director, the company’s problems started four years ago, when the US federal Department of Justice began covertly freezing funds. Full Tilt found that it could not access millions of dollars deposited by American players.
The obvious solution was to tell those players, “Sorry,” and stop accepting deposits from the US. If it wanted to make those players whole, for public relations and other reasons, it certainly had the funds to send those American players the amounts they had deposited that had been seized.
But Full Tilt apparently decided that would scare off other players around the world. So, someone came up with the idea of using funds from other players, principally those in Europe, to pay off Americans who won or wanted their deposits back. This might have worked; if only they had told their regulators first.
Full Tilt was under a legal duty to keep the Commission informed of significant events. In fact, its failure to disclose these seizures was the main ground for its regulators revoking its license.
If Full Tilt had said to Wilsenach, “The US is freezing some of our American players’ deposits,” the Alderney Gambling Control Commission would have worked with it. They might even have approved the idea of using European players’ funds, since Full Tilt had more than enough cash to make all players’ whole.
Anyone who has been on the operating side of the tables, even virtual ones, knows you always have to keep your regulators fully informed. Instead, Full Tilt officials continued to tell the Alderney authorities that they had hundreds of millions of dollars in cash, including funds that had been tied up by the US federal government.
Worse, insiders, including those who knew the money was running out, continued to pay themselves hundreds of millions of dollars, and did so for years.
Arrogance and greed killed any chance of resolving the mess. According to the federal government, Full Tilt owes players $390 million. It should have $503 million in cash. And it would, if insiders like poker-pro Howard “The Professor” Lederer hadn’t taken out $443 million over the last 4 years. Lederer alone allegedly took $42 million. If he had been satisfied with only $10 million, and the other insiders did, as well, there would have been more than enough to pay back everyone.
It wasn’t that hard a decision. After all, the players’ deposits were always the players’ money, not the operators’. Professor I Nelson Rose is recognized as one of the world’s leading experts on gambling law. His latest books, Gaming Law: Cases and Materials and Internet Gaming Law, are available through his website, www.gamblingandthelaw.com.
From an eminent gaming lawyer
Greed is dangerous. But combine it with stupidity and arrogance, and it can be lethal.
Some of the insiders of full tilt poker appear to have taken one of the most profitable businesses ever created and needlessly run it into the ground. Along the way, they got themselves indicted and sued in gigantic civil lawsuits. And they deprived hundreds of thousands of online poker players of hundreds of millions of dollars.
All of it was unnecessary.
For anyone who has been living in a cave without an Internet connection for the last decade, Full Tilt was one of the leading online poker operators. It made far more than the largest card club in the world, without having to spend money on buildings and dealers. It did not even have the risk of losing streaks, since it never played a hand, just raked every pot.
Full Tilt’s main license was issued by the gambling Control Commission of Alderney, one of the British Channel Islands. According to Andre Wilsenach, the Commission’s executive director, the company’s problems started four years ago, when the US federal Department of Justice began covertly freezing funds. Full Tilt found that it could not access millions of dollars deposited by American players.
The obvious solution was to tell those players, “Sorry,” and stop accepting deposits from the US. If it wanted to make those players whole, for public relations and other reasons, it certainly had the funds to send those American players the amounts they had deposited that had been seized.
But Full Tilt apparently decided that would scare off other players around the world. So, someone came up with the idea of using funds from other players, principally those in Europe, to pay off Americans who won or wanted their deposits back. This might have worked; if only they had told their regulators first.
Full Tilt was under a legal duty to keep the Commission informed of significant events. In fact, its failure to disclose these seizures was the main ground for its regulators revoking its license.
If Full Tilt had said to Wilsenach, “The US is freezing some of our American players’ deposits,” the Alderney Gambling Control Commission would have worked with it. They might even have approved the idea of using European players’ funds, since Full Tilt had more than enough cash to make all players’ whole.
Anyone who has been on the operating side of the tables, even virtual ones, knows you always have to keep your regulators fully informed. Instead, Full Tilt officials continued to tell the Alderney authorities that they had hundreds of millions of dollars in cash, including funds that had been tied up by the US federal government.
Worse, insiders, including those who knew the money was running out, continued to pay themselves hundreds of millions of dollars, and did so for years.
Arrogance and greed killed any chance of resolving the mess. According to the federal government, Full Tilt owes players $390 million. It should have $503 million in cash. And it would, if insiders like poker-pro Howard “The Professor” Lederer hadn’t taken out $443 million over the last 4 years. Lederer alone allegedly took $42 million. If he had been satisfied with only $10 million, and the other insiders did, as well, there would have been more than enough to pay back everyone.
It wasn’t that hard a decision. After all, the players’ deposits were always the players’ money, not the operators’. Professor I Nelson Rose is recognized as one of the world’s leading experts on gambling law. His latest books, Gaming Law: Cases and Materials and Internet Gaming Law, are available through his website, www.gamblingandthelaw.com.
jaymfc
R.I.P DJ & Buck
Loyaler
so you are celebrating black Friday ? you trader . you probably like the changes to bodog also don't you . your sic dude .Lots of cheap stuff going on sale tomorrow night, my wife and I are going to get some stuff for great deals. I hope it's not too crazy!
I kid I kid
hope you got some great deals , they really are out there on black Friday . we should have named our black Friday something worse .
cardriverx
Legend
Silver Level
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7333093/uigea-you
basic article about stuff we know -- more story-based, but written well enough from a poker player.
He also states that he will write future articles on the subject.
basic article about stuff we know -- more story-based, but written well enough from a poker player.
He also states that he will write future articles on the subject.
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Sure-he's worried about the kids.
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2011/...s-internet-gambling-ppa-take-action-11593.htm
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2011/...s-internet-gambling-ppa-take-action-11593.htm
kidkvno1
Sarah's Pet
Bronze Level
Sure-he's worried about the kids.
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2011/...s-internet-gambling-ppa-take-action-11593.htm
LMAO And how many "Minors" are playing in his casinos, and to which no ID's are looked at when anyone enters his casinos...
How many are asked for their photo ID's when entering a casino, don't be shy.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
There is such an easy solution to this age verification thing.
Since the States are, at this time, the primary guarantors of casino gaming, via laws, licensing, taxation, regulations, a simple amendment to existing laws would do the trick.
Each player would HAVE to deposit only at a state authorized and licensed poker house, be it casino or a pure poker house. Live deposit only, cash only, no credit cards, no drafts. Accounts and age verification done live, in person.
For those of you who say this would be a burden on the Casinos, think again. Long lines at first of players with cash in pocket winding their way thru a gazillion slot machines, roulette tables, blackjack tables etc, etc.....
Just that alone would justify the 'burdon'.
I happen to live walking distance from a Casino.. so no problem for me at all. But for most of you, it might require an outing to the nearest Casino, and why drive there and not enjoy the 'entertainment'. No, I think no casino would object too loudly to this requirement, and it surely would shut those ignorant politicians up.
Since the States are, at this time, the primary guarantors of casino gaming, via laws, licensing, taxation, regulations, a simple amendment to existing laws would do the trick.
Each player would HAVE to deposit only at a state authorized and licensed poker house, be it casino or a pure poker house. Live deposit only, cash only, no credit cards, no drafts. Accounts and age verification done live, in person.
For those of you who say this would be a burden on the Casinos, think again. Long lines at first of players with cash in pocket winding their way thru a gazillion slot machines, roulette tables, blackjack tables etc, etc.....
Just that alone would justify the 'burdon'.
I happen to live walking distance from a Casino.. so no problem for me at all. But for most of you, it might require an outing to the nearest Casino, and why drive there and not enjoy the 'entertainment'. No, I think no casino would object too loudly to this requirement, and it surely would shut those ignorant politicians up.
brank
Back in!
Silver Level
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Because of the uniquely superb software and RUSH, along with new ownership, I will venture a guess and say the majority of us would play there in a heartbeat.
T
talmania
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Never played at FTP but did alot at Party---what about it is unique? Rush poker? /off to google...
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
There was a big thread about this topic a while back: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-rooms-10/would-you-play-ft-if-reopened-201916/
My personal view remains unchanged - if deposits and withdrawls are being processed, the action is good, the software remains good and we retain the same or equivalent Ironman / rakeback / bonus systems, then absolutely I'll play there.
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Exactly. I think only 23 states have full casino gambling.
That's such a bogus issue anyway. I'm sure OTB which IS legal does age verification.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
For one they could be mandated to do it, but more likely might be that they want you to deposit at their branded online site, or one they are associated with.
But then think a bit deeper and think about any gambler walking in your casino door with cash in his pocket! The idea works on so many levels.
As for those states that currently don't have casinos, well, either they get on the train or they stop the train altogether.
It is so highly unlikely there will be a Countrywide solution, as in a Federal Bureau of Poker, whereas a state by state solution seems much more doable. In this economy, no state will be sitting on the fence.
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
It will be interesting to see how many states get on the bandwagon if an online poker bill ever passes.
I'm guessing you'll have a few right away (the ones without their heads up their asses). My letter to my governor asking him to support online poker if a bill is passed where states can opt out, got a stupid response that my concerns should be directed to our U.S. congressmen. (HELLO-anybody home? Read the dam letter!)
States with a huge population of evangelicals who think their rights are the only ones that count, may be tough sells. Also states like Washinton, with 27 NA casinos have made online poker a felony-so unless the tribes think it's worth their while, they may not allow it.
Now I'm getting depressed again.
I'm guessing you'll have a few right away (the ones without their heads up their asses). My letter to my governor asking him to support online poker if a bill is passed where states can opt out, got a stupid response that my concerns should be directed to our U.S. congressmen. (HELLO-anybody home? Read the dam letter!)
States with a huge population of evangelicals who think their rights are the only ones that count, may be tough sells. Also states like Washinton, with 27 NA casinos have made online poker a felony-so unless the tribes think it's worth their while, they may not allow it.
Now I'm getting depressed again.
Poker Orifice
And Still...
Platinum Level
Comparing FTP to partypoker would be like comparing Jesse James' chopper (in that recent build off on tv) vs. a really old/beaten down moped. Can ya guess which one is the chopper?
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-new...t-of-justice-adjusts-stance-on-internet-poker
So the DOJ finally admits what so many of us have been saying all along: that The Wire Act in fact does not apply to online poker, despite their frequent mention of it in the past when classifying online poker as "illegal."
So the DOJ finally admits what so many of us have been saying all along: that The Wire Act in fact does not apply to online poker, despite their frequent mention of it in the past when classifying online poker as "illegal."
alaskabill
Legend
Silver Level
That's really great news. Thanks for posting.
LOL at the typo in the article making it look like party only paid a 300 dollar fine.
C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
So with this can of worms closed, that still leaves a few issues to resolve.
The UEIGA act is untested, and a case can be made that since there was no illegal gambling going on (according to the aforementioned opinion), it, and thus all the related (3rd party processor bs) was caused by a lack of clarity in all the laws involved (primarily the UEGIA).
BUT, nothing will get clarified unless some one (Stars please be our ultimate angel!) takes this to court, or the Congress clarifies things. I think Congress will drag their collective feet on this issue, and they would also prefer a court decision, one way or the other, before they change anything.
Of all the solutions I would prefer, it would be that Stars returns as was to the states, and the silly regulations that cause Stars, and others to use 3rd party payment processors to just fade away.
Stars, at this point, along with the remnants of FT and Cereus, and going further back, Party and all the other sites who vacated the states in '06 (due to the UEGIA act), could be looking at a class action suit to recoup all the fines and fee's and penalties incurred since '06 from the DoJ and the US gov in general. Not to mention those putz local Police Departments reaping $$$ from the funds provided by the DoJ (you have seen the video's).
What leverage!!!!
IMHO - The PPA, and the AGA should help Stars and the other sites press this advantage.
The UEIGA act is untested, and a case can be made that since there was no illegal gambling going on (according to the aforementioned opinion), it, and thus all the related (3rd party processor bs) was caused by a lack of clarity in all the laws involved (primarily the UEGIA).
BUT, nothing will get clarified unless some one (Stars please be our ultimate angel!) takes this to court, or the Congress clarifies things. I think Congress will drag their collective feet on this issue, and they would also prefer a court decision, one way or the other, before they change anything.
Of all the solutions I would prefer, it would be that Stars returns as was to the states, and the silly regulations that cause Stars, and others to use 3rd party payment processors to just fade away.
Stars, at this point, along with the remnants of FT and Cereus, and going further back, Party and all the other sites who vacated the states in '06 (due to the UEGIA act), could be looking at a class action suit to recoup all the fines and fee's and penalties incurred since '06 from the DoJ and the US gov in general. Not to mention those putz local Police Departments reaping $$$ from the funds provided by the DoJ (you have seen the video's).
What leverage!!!!
IMHO - The PPA, and the AGA should help Stars and the other sites press this advantage.