'Black Friday' and associated fallout megathread

[absoluthamm]

So you want there to be less 'current' options for US players playing online? (Cake & Merge 'gg')
I'm not a huge fan of Bodog, but I certainly don't mind having the option to add a another tourney or two to my screen from their site. TONS of soft players making it very +ev (along with other stuff mentioned, good support, payouts, etc.). Too bad it sucks for HEM/PT3 cashgame players.... but really.. you can only play 4-tables on there anyways???
I guess it's a huge downfall for some of ya? I personally don't mind that they've implemented something on their site that perhaps makes it even softer???

This is going on a derail here, and I've posted much of my thoughts on this in other threads, but since it's being suggested that I'm not appreciative of US-friendly sites, I figure another explanation is in order.

PO, it's really more of a principle thing with me. Yes, it's a soft game. Every time I break down and play on there while just goofing around, I marvel at how soft it can be.

And yet, I'm tilted beyond belief almost every time I play. Their software sucks donkey balls. And even that I could tolerate -- to me it's not even as bad as UB's software was (aside from the fact UB gave you HH's and a replayer). Merge doesn't give me a native replayer either and has a pretty crappy HH reviewing page, but at least I can save a real HH to review or replay in my tracker.

Speaking of, a lot of you get hung up on those of us that get hung up on Bodog's anti-tracker/HUD policy. You make it sound like it's all about the HUD, which shouldn't matter because the soft fishes and 4-table limit. But you miss the point. It's not about the HUD itself. I can hold my own pretty doggone well without a HUD on 4 tables against the typical Bodog fish, thankyouverymuch. It's about the fact I can't review my game. I'm not allowed to use a tool at my disposal that every other site allows -- even Cake -- to study and improve my own game. And it's because they have no interest in players improving themselves to the point of being a winning player. In fact, they've stated that the concept of winning poker players runs completely counter to their business model, and so they take steps to discourage winning players from sticking around.

And therein lies their fatal flaw, IMO. That's the straw that broke the camel's back with me. Their attitude towards winning players sucks. To be blunt, I have a broken stupidity filter, and as such my tolerance for it is just very very low. And to me (obviously not everyone), theirs is a stupid business policy. But it's theirs to make, and so I vote with my pocketbook (or BR, as it were). Combined with the aforementioned software issues, I'm perfectly happy to take my business elsewhere, limited opportunities though they are. I consider pretty much every other site available to US players as a better option than Bodog, and I'm not shy about sharing that opinion.

But that's just me -- I'm sure others see the $$$'s in the soft play and have the fortitude and patience to overlook everything else. More power to you. However I play to also enjoy the game, not only for the $$$'s, because this isn't my profession. And because I'm somewhat of an idealist at heart. So yeah, it's a pretty big downfall for me, because I really don't enjoy myself there, even when I'm winning.

That's not to say I never play there -- sure I do. Just not seriously. Mainly CC events and such. If it looks like my BR is getting terminally low for those, to avoid depositing I'll suck it up and swim with the fish long enough to build it back to $50-$100. But otherwise, no, I'm not going to give it undue respect just because it remains open to US players. If it were the only site left, I suspect I'd just give up online poker until I had other options.

Finally, my point that brought this discussion up here is not that I want to "eliminate" Bodog as a choice for US players, as you implied by your first sentence. My point was made in response to the idea that FT sold their software to Bodog. Because of Bodog policies, they would cripple much of its functionality, so it would be a waste of good software.

PO, I'm just quoting Dave's post back because it pretty much explains everything that I was thinking, but he is better at vocalizing it(I mean, his average post is like 5 paragraphs long )

For me it also isn't nearly an issue because of the HUD situations, because I haven't had a HUD on bodog in like 5 years and was still able to build up over $1k from no deposit(withdrawn last Jan, guess I make up that winning player is a withdrawing one...), it was their whole model, mindset and lack of built in tools and shitty SHITTY software. Also, it doesn't really matter what I think of Bodog, they are leaving the US market at the end of the year, so that settles it.

Sorry again for the derail from the FTP software topic, but this whole thread is a catchall, so who really cares, right

 

[okeedokalee]

We have a marvelous new owner once deal is finalized.I will only be leaving $50 in when we are paid out and will wait and see how this new ownership plays out.

"Tapie, a former government minister, sports tycoon and actor, served six months in prison in 1997 after being convicted of bribing soccer players to throw a 1993 match against Olympique Marseille, a team he owned. He was also convicted of fraud for deliberately misleading authorities about a luxury yacht."

 

[absoluthamm]

We have a marvelous new owner once deal is finalized.I will only be leaving $50 in when we are paid out and will wait and see how this new ownership plays out.

"Tapie, a former government minister, sports tycoon and actor, served six months in prison in 1997 after being convicted of bribing soccer players to throw a 1993 match against Olympique Marseille, a team he owned. He was also convicted of fraud for deliberately misleading authorities about a luxury yacht."

Yea, we knew that

 

[msufan]

We have a marvelous new owner once deal is finalized.I will only be leaving $50 in when we are paid out and will wait and see how this new ownership plays out.

"Tapie, a former government minister, sports tycoon and actor, served six months in prison in 1997 after being convicted of bribing soccer players to throw a 1993 match against Olympique Marseille, a team he owned. He was also convicted of fraud for deliberately misleading authorities about a luxury yacht."

What is it about poker that seems to draw an overabundance of schemers like this?

 

[dmorris68]

Also, it doesn't really matter what I think of Bodog, they are leaving the US market at the end of the year, so that settles it.

Only the Bodog brand name is leaving the US. The game and software will continue to operate in the US under the same MMGG company that operates it now. They do claim to be working on a software upgrade that will put it on par with FT and PS. For it to be that much better, it would have to be more than an "update." More like a rewrite.

It's still not perfectly clear to me, but from what I understand, they are behind the current policies and will continue those same policies after the rebranding, so I don't expect things to get any better. But I'd love to be wrong about that and have a US site with better software that is more friendly to winning players.

 

[alaskabill]

Circa 2001 or so, I was buying smokes from overseas for outrageous savings. Cartons for under $10, once even a carton for under $5. Same smokes as here. I was buying 10 cartons at a time.

DOJ or ATF or some government agency seized a boat load of 'imports'.

I got a notice that my name was on one of the seized shipments and was directed to claim my shipment. I never did.

Had I tried, I expected I would have to do the triplicate thing, and then pay back taxes due on however many shipments that government agency wanted to say I was liable for. Not to mention the possible legal issues that could arise from me having tried to avoid taxation. I was doing this for more than a year, and had saved way more than what this lost shipment was costing me.

Yes, lots of orphaned money. Not so much because people are afraid to apply, but winning players being afraid of the implied taxes and thus penalties involved. I have taken out way more than I ever deposited at FT, and will probably not apply for fear of back taxes and penalties involved with the DOJ/IRS handling the return process. Less than $100 due me. Getting it back would probably cause me over $100 worth of headaches.

This could change if a 3rd party is involved with the fund dispersal's and their policies are clearly stated.

Basically if you were committing tax evasion then yes, collecting from the DOJ could b -EV. If you were paying the taxes that you were supposed to be paying it really shouldn't be that big of a deal. No offense but it sounds like you fall into the tax evasion camp.

 

[jazzaxe]

I don't see in the article in PSNews that the players would have to apply to the DOJ for their funds. They will approve and consent to the payoffs. From that I gather that FT will pay the US players in its normal fashion as before black friday. I see no reason why that wouldn't be the fastest and more efficient way of securing payment.

 

[PurgatoryD]

Say what you will about the government's efficiency in all this (which remains to be seen), but this is getting into tinfoil hat stuff. There are no legal issues with US players.

LOL! You are absolutely right about players not breaking the law, but I know people who will still not want to go through the DOJ to get their money. I'll do it, but I admit that I really don't like the idea.

 

[DennisC98]

DOJ Moving on full tilt poker Acquisition.

The associated press reported Friday that Full Tilt Poker's potential buyer, French investment group, Groupe Bernard Tapie, received a signed letter of agreement by the U.S. attorney's office that signifies a go ahead to broker the deal.


The way the agreement is supposed to work is that Full Tilt forfeits their assets in the United States and The United States sells those assets to Groupe Bernard Tapie.


The next steps will be for Full Tilt to agree, then for the Tapie group to negotiate a final agreement with the Justice Department.
It is hoped that this will ensure the return of player funds.

 

[KerouacsDog]

DOJ Moving on Full Tilt Poker Acquisition.

The associated press reported Friday that Full Tilt Poker's potential buyer, French investment group, Groupe Bernard Tapie, received a signed letter of agreement by the U.S. attorney's office that signifies a go ahead to broker the deal.


The way the agreement is supposed to work is that Full Tilt forfeits their assets in the United States and The United States sells those assets to Groupe Bernard Tapie.


The next steps will be for Full Tilt to agree, then for the Tapie group to negotiate a final agreement with the Justice Department.
It is hoped that this will ensure the return of player funds.

thanks Dc for info.

 

[DennisC98]

DoJ agrees to Full Tilt deal

Groupe Bernard Tapie has received a preliminary agreement with prosecutors to buy Full Tilt Poker for $80m.


A lawyer for Groupe Bernard Tapie, Benham Dayanim, told the Associated Press on Friday that he received a signed letter of agreement on Thursday from the US attorney's office in New York that could broker Full Tilt Poker's sale.

According to Dayanim, the next steps will be for Full Tilt to agree, then for the Tapie group to negotiate a final agreement with the Department of Justice.

Jeff Ifrah, a lawyer for Full Tilt CEO Raymond Bitar, said the letter of agreement helps pave the way toward restarting Full Tilt's operations outside the US and paying back players.

The Tapie group would pay players outside the US, while Americans who gambled at the site would send claims to the DoJ. Current investors with stakes in Full Tilt would reportedly not be allowed to have a stake in the new company.

Dayanim said he was optimistic about the deal because it offers the best chance of players being paid back and restarting the site as a European-facing poker site.

Alderney gambling Control Commissioners revoked Full Tilt's licence at a tribunal in September when it emerged that the company had fundamentally misled the AGCC about its operational integrity.

 

[fletchdad]

DoJ agrees to Full Tilt deal

Groupe Bernard Tapie has received a preliminary agreement with prosecutors to buy Full Tilt Poker for $80m.


A lawyer for Groupe Bernard Tapie, Benham Dayanim, told the Associated Press on Friday that he received a signed letter of agreement on Thursday from the US attorney's office in New York that could broker Full Tilt Poker's sale.

According to Dayanim, the next steps will be for Full Tilt to agree, then for the Tapie group to negotiate a final agreement with the Department of Justice.

Jeff Ifrah, a lawyer for Full Tilt CEO Raymond Bitar, said the letter of agreement helps pave the way toward restarting Full Tilt's operations outside the US and paying back players.

The Tapie group would pay players outside the US, while Americans who gambled at the site would send claims to the DoJ. Current investors with stakes in Full Tilt would reportedly not be allowed to have a stake in the new company.

Dayanim said he was optimistic about the deal because it offers the best chance of players being paid back and restarting the site as a European-facing poker site.

Alderney Gambling Control Commissioners revoked Full Tilt's licence at a tribunal in September when it emerged that the company had fundamentally misled the AGCC about its operational integrity.

Sounds great, cept US players having to deal with the DoJ sounds a bit dodgy, but perhaps it will work out in the end???

What is your source Dennis?

 

[dj11]

Basically if you were committing tax evasion then yes, collecting from the DOJ could b -EV. If you were paying the taxes that you were supposed to be paying it really shouldn't be that big of a deal. No offense but it sounds like you fall into the tax evasion camp.

At that time, there had been a no tax via the internet thing as the internet was still becoming. So, in theory, no tax would include international sales. Those no tax on the internet laws (resolutions?) may still be in effect, I am not sure, but they were then.

 

[dmorris68]

What is your source Dennis?

Pretty much everything he posted is sourced by the articles we posted last week.

 

[okeedokalee]

This is the part that matters and would be inclusive of U.S. players.

Ifrah said that part of the challenge in finding a buyer for Full Tilt was finding investors willing to sit down with prosecutors who also had deep enough pockets to buy the company and reimburse players.
"It's been too long for everybody _ not just the players but from the investors perspective," Ifrah said. "There's a huge risk that Tapie's taking in relaunching this site, and obviously we want that to be very successful.

"But first and foremost, we want to make sure that no player's being left behind here."


Read more: http://www.nctimes.com/business/pot...a23-5155-ad14-df48c7fe3e5c.html#ixzz1eN7pKzKx

 

[okeedokalee]

The following statement was sent to PokerStrategy.com from Full Tilt Poker:

Full Tilt Poker is pleased that the terms of the agreement between Groupe Bernard Tapie (GBT) and the Department of Justice have been finalized, and that the agreement provides for GBT to repay or make whole players outside of the United States and for the Department of Justice to permit United States players to request compensation out of the forfeited funds. Since Black Friday, repaying customers has been FTP’s number one priority.

Ray Bitar, co-Founder of Full Tilt Poker stated: “I am extremely pleased with the efforts of the Department of Justice, and the Groupe Bernard Tapie corporation, and appreciate their continued dedication in working towards a mutually beneficial agreement that will facilitate repayment of the players ."

Now that the agreement with DOJ has been reached, GBT and Full Tilt Poker will now turn to memorializing the final terms of their agreement, to bring this matter to a complete resolution as soon as possible.

Full Tilt Poker would like to thank all its customers for their continued patience since Black Friday and during this negotiation process.

 

[the Styb]

So the Fed finally "reached an agreement" with a convicted briber and tax cheat… And they're going to allow US Players to "request compensation"… Rumour has it that the Fed is ransoming FT assets for $80-million. Estimates put FT's obligation to US players at around $150-million. This means that if you're lucky, you might get back .53¢ on the dollar. That is if Jesus and the Perfesser and the rest of the high rollers that caused this mess don't get a dollar-for-dollar deal first… Just fills me with so much confidence in both the new and improved Full Tilt and our own incorruptible justice system! Caveat Emptor, ladies!

 

[Charade You Are]

$80M plus all the seized funds from payment processors and bank accounts. As for incorruptible:

 

[OzExorcist]

So the Fed finally "reached an agreement" with a convicted briber and tax cheat… And they're going to allow US Players to "request compensation"… Rumour has it that the Fed is ransoming FT assets for $80-million. Estimates put FT's obligation to US players at around $150-million. This means that if you're lucky, you might get back .53¢ on the dollar. That is if Jesus and the Perfesser and the rest of the high rollers that caused this mess don't get a dollar-for-dollar deal first… Just fills me with so much confidence in both the new and improved Full Tilt and our own incorruptible justice system! Caveat Emptor, ladies!

Long story short is we don't know yet what's going to happen, how payouts will be structured and whether people will be paid in full.

As mentioned above, the DoJ has GBT's $80m plus the funds seized on Black Friday, which are estimated to be about $45m. It's possible they'll also draw on funds seized prior to Black Friday, which opens up another $100m-ish. The talk all along has been about paying players in full, so I wouldn't give up hope on that point yet.

 

[Charade You Are]

They have also seized assets since Black Friday from payment processors and the FTP board. Haven't been able to find good $ amounts tho.

Too bad the DOJ is better at legal extortion than putting away real criminals and enforcing our immegration laws.

 

[the Styb]

Actually, the "assets" which the Fed is selling for 80M are the seized money. However, it has been explained to to me elsewhere that GBT will still be taking the hit for repayment. So it looks like this is the probable outcome:

1. GBT pays the ransom to the Fed and they release the seized accounts,
2. US players apply to the Fed for repayment,
3. the Fed checks the validity of the claim with FT records
4. then notifies GBT who will then send the repayment to the players.

Makes perfect sense when you think about how the red-tape system works over here.

 

[DennisC98]

Full Tilt Poker Gets Suprise US Market Re-entry Concession.

 

[absoluthamm]

Full Tilt Poker Gets Suprise US Market Re-entry Concession.

link or just a headline copy/pasted???

From: http://www.onlinepoker.net/poker-ne...poker-suprise-market-reentry-concession/13135

Full Tilt Poker was once the second biggest online poker room in the world, before it saw its US operation shut down back in April 2011 followed by the rest of the world in June. Since then, Groupe Bernard Tapie (GBT) has been trying to negotiate a settlement with the US Department of Justice for the purchase of the beleaguered online poker room’s distressed assets.

It was then announced recently that Full Tilt’s frustrated customers were a step closer to receiving their $330 million in lost funds after an agreement was reached in principle to sell the company for around $80 million, pending its shareholder’s approval.

In the latest twist in the ongoing saga, it would appear that potential new owners Groupe Bernard Tapie have struck a deal with the DoJ which would also permit them a concession not even yet afforded to PokerStars. Namely, Full Tilt may be permitted to re-enter the US market in the eventuality of online poker legalisation in the States. Expressing his optimism ahead of the agreement, Full Tilt Poker attorney Jeff Ifrah commented:
“The deal that was reached between the investors and the Department of Justice (DoJ) is going to pave the way for players to be reimbursed and it’s hopefully going to pave the way for a new FTP to be re-launched. Those two together, is good for poker, good for the industry and good for the players.”

Groupe Bernard Tapie (GBT) are specialists in acquiring distressed companies and returning them to profitability. If this latest deal goes through then there is little doubt that GBT will be once again be making a shrewd move by investing in the once hugely profitable online poker business. In addition, Full Tilt Poker was once acknowledged as having the best and innovative software in the industry, once again making its potential purchase a solid investment.

It may now be looking that the past reports of Full Tilt’s death may have been greatly exaggerated. Phil Ivey may even be feeling a slight easing of pressure since the debacle started, and is currently making his first poker playing appearance since Black Friday, at the APPT Main Event in Macau.

 

[OzExorcist]

Actually, the "assets" which the Fed is selling for 80M are the seized money. However, it has been explained to to me elsewhere that GBT will still be taking the hit for repayment. So it looks like this is the probable outcome:

1. GBT pays the ransom to the Fed and they release the seized accounts,
2. US players apply to the Fed for repayment,
3. the Fed checks the validity of the claim with FT records
4. then notifies GBT who will then send the repayment to the players.

Makes perfect sense when you think about how the red-tape system works over here.

Source? Because that makes no sense.

My understanding from following the story runs more like this:

- Full Tilt forfeits its assets (ie: software, rights to the brand, client list, I assume physical assets such as property and IT infrastructure, etc) to the DoJ in return for the pending civil claims against the company being dropped.
- GBT buys these assets from the DoJ for $80m. GBT now owns the Full Tilt brand, software, client list, infrastructure, etc.
- GBT and DoJ strike an agreement whereby GBT will make rest-of-world players whole (out of its own pocket) and DoJ will repay American players.

We don't actually know where DoJ is getting the money to repay players at this stage, it's just reasonable to assume that it's coming from GBT's $80m + the seized funds.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

Lots of cheap stuff going on sale tomorrow night, my wife and I are going to get some stuff for great deals. I hope it's not too crazy!