Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
AP reached an agreement with DOJ. Maybe we will get our funds back.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/10/idUS255168+10-May-2011+MW20110510
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/10/idUS255168+10-May-2011+MW20110510
LarkMarlow
Legend
Silver Level
Thanks for posting this! From the article:
"Absolute Poker's top priority has always been, and remains, the refund of
account balances to its US players. Unfortunately, the Company still
faces several legal issues which must be navigated before funds can be
paid out to US players. The Company's US attorneys, Blank Rome LLP,
continue to work diligently to resolve these issues, which is a necessary
further step to facilitate the return of funds to players. Player funds,
therefore, will not become immediately available for withdrawal as a
result of today's agreement with the DOJ."
"Absolute Poker's top priority has always been, and remains, the refund of
account balances to its US players. Unfortunately, the Company still
faces several legal issues which must be navigated before funds can be
paid out to US players. The Company's US attorneys, Blank Rome LLP,
continue to work diligently to resolve these issues, which is a necessary
further step to facilitate the return of funds to players. Player funds,
therefore, will not become immediately available for withdrawal as a
result of today's agreement with the DOJ."
P
PlayedYou73
Visionary
Silver Level
Ummmn, have you actually "looked" at any of the material that is presented in the indictments?
The "DOJ donks" as you refer to them, don't have to know a single thing about poker, as most of the charges have absolutely nothing to do with 'the game of poker' itself. It has "everything" to do with how financial transactions were processed.
Entire fictional "shell" companies are alleged to have been created in order to facilitate payments between players and pokers sites. The "poker transfers" you are referring to, are alleged to have used these 'shell' companies as a go-between. So your money goes from your bank account to some payment processor, who then transfers the money to a 'shell' company that on paper sells golf equipment on the internet, but in reality exists only to facilitate money transfers with poker sites. That is "textbook" money laundering. An entire bank in Utah is alleged to have been basically bought out by the poker sites in order to help them hide their financial transactions from the U.S government.
In alot of cases, it appears that the payment processors and the poker sites themselves were one in the same. The only reason the processors existed was an attempt to 'hide' financial transactions from the government. And at face value, that would be bank/wire fraud.
The prosecutors in this case are federal ones for the Southern District of New York. They are 'the best' prosecutors in the USA for prosecuting financial crimes, and they have a record to prove it. So they are hardly "donks". (Although I honestly would have liked to have seen them go after some of the Wall Street crooks responsible for the meltdown before they went after the poker sites.)
Read the indictment and do some research if you don't believe me.
P
PlayedYou73
Visionary
Silver Level
When I said it doesn't have anything to do with poker, I meant it in the sense that it doesn't have anything to do with the argument as to whether poker is a game of "skill" or "chance". If this was any other business doing the same things, the government would likely shut them down as well.
Keep in mind, that it was the poker sites themselves that decided to remove themselves from the American market. The DOJ did seize their .com/.net addresses, but the servers were still working as they are not located in the USA.
As for the legalization issue. By getting "indicted" in the USA, they have set the legalization issue back by 'years'. Instead of the news story being about how this industry should be legalized and regulated, the story is about how these companies have been breaking laws for several years now.
The poker industry outside the USA is still going pretty strong. Since the shutdown, pokerstars can still pull in over 200,000 players on weekends. Full Tilt can manage about half that it seems if not slightly less. The international appeal of online poker would have eventually led to it's legal introduction in the USA, and most likely would have been facilitated by the Vegas casinos, who were starting to become more involved in the industry in the weeks prior to 'Black Friday'. They've been watching the online poker scene for a long time and have just been waiting for the right opportunity to enter the market.
Leo 50
Legend
Silver Level
Today I received a FTP bonus of $25.00 posted to my account.
Don't know if it was from Take Two or what (I didn't finish it obviously)
I still can't withdraw so I guess I have $25.00 more sitting in limbo.
As for American players going to other sites, Carbon, Merge etc.
Most of the more knowledgeable people around the poker world are recommending that we DON'T do that.
It is just a matter of time before they go after the smaller sites and unless you can afford to lose
another bankroll......well you get the idea
Don't know if it was from Take Two or what (I didn't finish it obviously)
I still can't withdraw so I guess I have $25.00 more sitting in limbo.
As for American players going to other sites, Carbon, Merge etc.
Most of the more knowledgeable people around the poker world are recommending that we DON'T do that.
It is just a matter of time before they go after the smaller sites and unless you can afford to lose
another bankroll......well you get the idea
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Money Laundering
Money laundering is the criminal act of filtering illegally obtained ("dirty") money through a series of transactions designed to make the money appear legitimate ("clean").
Explain this then.
Money is deposited on a site.. Years later money is withdrawn from the site.
The site is not illegal, but is licensed in the jurisdiction where it operates.
Playing online poker is not illegal.
The money deposited was earned and taxed.
By what stretch of the imagination is the money dirty?
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
The 60,000 were through the PPA's site! That doesn't include all the phone calls and emails sent by us through our own email accounts or through other websites, such as the .govs.
pokerchris
Legend
Silver Level
Read this first http://www.relentlessdefense.com/ou...-profile-cases/u-s-attorney-s-office-on-tilt/ don't make a fool of yourself.
P
PlayedYou73
Visionary
Silver Level
Your example is too simplistic. The money does not go straight in and straight out. There is rake/juice that is taken off of money while it is in play. This money becomes the poker site's property. Player money is typically "fenced" meaning the site's don't touch it at all until it is in play.
However the site still wants to make it's profit, so it has to take that rake/juice money out somehow. Which is where alot of the problems began. (ie. the fictious online businesses that existed). This is also why the SDNY is allowing players to get their money back..because they realize there is a difference.
And just because something is legal in one jurisdiction, it doesn't make it legal in another. We are talking about entirely different countries here as well, not just different states.
And playing online poker "is" illegal in some jursdictions. (Look at Washington state, it's illegal in some countries as well).
P
PlayedYou73
Visionary
Silver Level
LOL, this is one law firms "opinion". I'm sure you can find 20 other law firms, half of which will say what happened was illegal and the other half will say it was not.
Doesn't mean that any of them are correct.
The only thing that matters at the end of the day, is whether the sites plead guilty or not guilty, and whether a not guilty plea results in a later conviction.
If all we had to do was rely on lawyers opinions...we wouldn't need "judges" and "courts" would we? I at least understand where legal decisions are 'ultimately' made...and it's not in lawyers offices.
the lab man
CardsChat Irregular
Silver Level
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Rake has nothing to do with it at all. Of course it doesn't sit there, you play poker with it, then withdraw. You still haven't answer how the money becomes "dirty". There is no law making rake illegal.
What difference does it make whether something is illegal in say North Korea?
Washington State is the only state where online poker is illegal.
smd173
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Oops...you didn't check your numbers... http://2010.census.gov/2010census/data/
You were the one that said there was a significant increase in unemployment as a result of Black Friday. All I stated was it wouldn't be significant (and it isn't) and then we wouldn't ever see those numbers in any of the unemployment reports. (Which is true)
gefishy said:
That we can definitely agree on.
gefishy
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Ha, that's cute. Trying to correct my numbers without checking my source. Before I get too into this, it is important to note: 300mil is in fact greater than 225 mil. All I stated was a population greater than 225mil, so even on your basis I am correct. Moving on...
Note: Your data is from a census done in 2010, I was discussing a 2008 election. To save you the trouble (since you didn't bother to look at it the first time) here is the data (from the 2008 census data survey: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/socdemo/voting/publications/p20/2008/tables.html) that breaks down the population as it was during the 2008 election.
I highlighted the pertinent info that I used in my original statement: the total number of 18+ Americans in 2008, the % of that population that voted, and perhaps most importantly, the census source with the appropriate date.
I'll repeat, know your numbers (2010 census for a 2008 election), site your sources, (which you did, but failed to notice that mine also came direct from a census.gov site), and be prepared to be put in your place (I low-balled my estimation of the population based on 18+ Americans for specifically this reason. By saying 225mil+ Americans, I accounted for the bare minimum, being those of legal voting age, and allowed for somebody to consider all other Americans as well)
One final thing: The words "not significant" are subjective. I didn't spent a lot of time on it except to provide context for people trying to make their own opinions. You say 60,000 jobs lost (a number which I will still dispute) is insignificant, I say 1 job lost is significant.
But hey, thanks for reading! It is nice to get into this kind of a debate once in a while!
gefishy
Enthusiast
Silver Level
You must be very selective with your reading.
Do a google search in the news on this topic and count the number of stories vilifying the "big 3" vs. the number of stories that discuss the need for regulation or how this will push a regulatory agenda... When I typed "'black friday' poker" in the news section of Google, the majority of the articles were pro-legislation to say the least.
LarkMarlow
Legend
Silver Level
roundcat
Creature of leisure
Silver Level
Poker News Daily: Absolute Poker Reaches Agreement with U.S. DOJ
http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/absolute-poker-reaches-agreement-with-u-s-doj-19104
"The active week for Absolute Poker continues. On Tuesday, the member of the CEREUS Network announced that it, along with sister site UB, has come to an agreement with the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, a preliminary step in hopefully getting frozen funds back into U.S. players’ bank accounts."
I want to get off the roller coaster! But could this be a good sign? I almost hate to even hope.
http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/absolute-poker-reaches-agreement-with-u-s-doj-19104
"The active week for Absolute Poker continues. On Tuesday, the member of the CEREUS Network announced that it, along with sister site UB, has come to an agreement with the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, a preliminary step in hopefully getting frozen funds back into U.S. players’ bank accounts."
I want to get off the roller coaster! But could this be a good sign? I almost hate to even hope.
Debi
Forum Admin
Administrator
What makes you think we do?
I won't vote for anyone who opposes it - but in my state that often means I have to choose nobody.
P
PlayedYou73
Visionary
Silver Level
Rake is a 'part' of all the financial transactions. If the poker sites were not collecting rake, they could not operate (since rake/juice is all of their profit). The alleged illegal part of all of this is related to the UIGEA. In simple terms, the UIGEA prohibits banks from conducting financial transactions with online poker sites. To get around this, the poker sites/payment processors are alleged to have "coded" the financial entries to appear on paper as something other then poker related. (hence the 'shell' online golf companies among others).
"Rake" could be considered a proceed of crime, since the banks are prohibited from conducting financial transactions under the UIGEA with poker sites, and since the transactions are being "hidden" under a different name, it can be considered tainted then. Coding the transaction differently from what it really is, is a crime in itself, hence the money that is part of it, can be considered dirty.
I don't exactly understand your North Korea reference..but the bottom line is that just because something is legal in one jurisdiction, it doesn't mean it is legal in other jurisdictions.