JimmyBrizzy
Visionary
Silver Level
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary.../A-full-tilt-federal-shutdown-of-online-poker
Found this article randomly. The ignorance and lack of a well founded argument are both amusing and disappointing at the same time.
Found this article randomly. The ignorance and lack of a well founded argument are both amusing and disappointing at the same time.
the Styb
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yes, dear, you are missing the entire point of this weekend! Notice how everything is shutting down? All the companies currently trying to share the market are slowly being attacked by the united States Government. (Think of them as Libya, if it helps.) The US wants undeniable, absolute control over every dollar in the world and online poker is just one big, huge ****ing pile of dollars!
If you really, really think the United States wants to play fair, then I salute your incredible naieveté. Drink the Kool-Aid and watch some more Fox "News".
the Styb
Rock Star
Silver Level
Sorry ZC, but your argument fails. anyone can open any competing business pretty much anywhere they want in the US as long as you are not in the wagering industry.
"Why would they assign a set number of licenses?" Because that's how they run casino licenses now.
"Whether or not a company receives a license or not depends on whether they are abiding the regulations the government has put forth." Really? Until the government decides to change the rules, that is. That's why they wrote the UIGEA, and paper-clipped it onto the back of a homeland security bill at the last minute. No discussion. No debate. The only reason the Big Three started the shady banking was because the UIGEA made processing US funds illegal overnight.
"You all may feel that the world is collapsing around you…" No, just the part of it that used to be the United States of America.
"effort the poker community is putting towards legalizing poker, we will be heard and things will change" No. Because most people agree with you on this and that's part of the problem. POKER IS NOT ILLEGAL! Either online or live, the issue is NOT poker, but the MONEY that changes hands without every senator getting a slice for his own wallet.
Try again.
A
AAChipMagnet
Visionary
Silver Level
This may be speculation but this country is nothing but conspiracy after conspiracy isn't it? The Feds are conspiring to help US based companies or individuals take control of the market and shut the others out because they disobeyed them. They also, DON'T FORGET, want their bloody tax money to pay for wars nobody sane wants. Except, of course, the poor people working in the already monopolized manufacturing industry (that is for sh!t by the way) where they produce the tanks and bearings and bombs, etc. that kill innocent people every day in "third world" countries. They know they can't just take away people's Social Security or Medicare or whatever or people will just go to court loaded and ready to fire or start SERIOUS protests that could lead to a civil freaking war. Not even sure they don't want that to happen knowing where their bread is buttered.
Can you imagine Donald Trump with an AK 47 and camo gear? Na, didn't think so. Anyway, isn't Shreet Barahhaha or whatever a MUSLIM name? OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG the US attorney is a Muslim. Are we sure he's a US citizen? Was he reallllly born here or is it just a Certificate Of Live Birth?????????????????? It is such a lower standard you know............
ZeusCayman
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I wasn't aware that that's how the casino industry was run. I don't understand why it would be any different than any other business.
I'm trying to run my ideas of how I think it should be regulated and most of the responses I get in a round about way say the government f!*&in sucks. That's not informative to me. I'd rather see the pros and cons to the way it is being handles, and pros and cons to better ways of handling it.
Blaming the government for being greedy or what have you isn't really working towards a solution.
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Puhleeeze! Each state has its own form for issuing proof of birth. MY SON WHO DEFINITELY IS A U.S. CITIZEN, WAS BORN IN THE U.S., BOTH HIS PARENTS ARE U.S. CITIZENS, HIS GRANDPARENTS ARE U.S. CITIZENS, HIS GREAT GRANDPARENTS ARE U.S. CITIZENS and one side of our family has been here since the 1600's - his "birth certificate" is titled:
Certificate of Live Birth
That is what our state issues. Period.
Stick66
Legend
Silver Level
Another excellent take on the situation. This time by I.Nelson Rose, gambling lawyer:
http://www.gamblingandthelaw.com/blog/299-federal-poker-indictments-revisiting-prohibition.html
http://www.gamblingandthelaw.com/blog/299-federal-poker-indictments-revisiting-prohibition.html
bgomez89
Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
If anything there would be a higher fish to reg ratio since it'd be easier to deposit, they wouldn't need to worry if it's legal or not, and there'd ne less foreign regs.
Lol you do understand that the US is enforcing a law that the big 3 knowingly roke(the fraud) right?
I like you Zeus you're posting things that actually make sense
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Good article.
Never underestimate the ability of U.S. companies to take advantage of a situation:
April 15, 2011 Hustler Casino launches free online gaming site after FBI Internet poker crackdown
It's not really free-there are monthly fees to join.
According to the company, this has been in the works for months, as the the action against FTP, stars and UB. Coincidence, my ass.
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HeavyW
Enthusiast
Silver Level
F
fugitive67
Rock Star
Silver Level
it's all about money, it's always about $$$$
i'm not saying they don't have some legal footing here, but again if online poker wasn't all that popular, there would be NO WAY, this would be happening
and, sadly, it only hurts the little guy ... rich peeps have endless options for gambling and poker
PS, FT, etc. are certainly not going to be losing money or going out of business
it's the average joe, who works 45-50 hours a week and wants to play some low stakes poker between his monthly home game ... he is the one that is screwed over
it's like Ruwanda vs. Libya ... no $$$ vs. oil $$$, i love my country, but sometimes you are left scratching your head!!!
i'm not saying they don't have some legal footing here, but again if online poker wasn't all that popular, there would be NO WAY, this would be happening
and, sadly, it only hurts the little guy ... rich peeps have endless options for gambling and poker
PS, FT, etc. are certainly not going to be losing money or going out of business
it's the average joe, who works 45-50 hours a week and wants to play some low stakes poker between his monthly home game ... he is the one that is screwed over
it's like Ruwanda vs. Libya ... no $$$ vs. oil $$$, i love my country, but sometimes you are left scratching your head!!!
the Styb
Rock Star
Silver Level
In response to xdeuceswild81xx's query:
"why would the fbi sit around since 06', not doing anything about sites blatanly running in the U.S. and then up and decide today to take some actions against them? "
Because you, like many others in this country, forget, (or possibly don't know,) how government works.
UIGEA In A Nutshell:
While the bill itself was hastily written and smuggled through Congress on the back of the SAFE Port Act in September of 2006 and signed into law by Junior Bush the following October, there are further necessary steps that needed to be taken before it could actually be enacted.
First the language of the bill required that both the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury Department draft regulations and rules within 270 days of the bills passage and make them available for public comment. While the agencies missed the 270 day deadline, (it took almost a full year,) they eventually published a "Notice of Proposed Rule Making" in October of 2007 which was then tabled for discussion over the following year. 410 banks, advocacy groups, politicians, gambling entities, payment processors and consumers voiced dissent over the NPRM.
Despite the overwhelming sentiment against the regulations, the Bush Administration finalized them on November 12th, 2008, passing them into true law under the "midnight drop." For those unfamiliar with this term, it's used to describe the huge stack of laws and pardons for indicted cronies that an outgoing presidential administration passes before their time in office is up. The Final Rule of the UIGEA went into effect on January 19th, 2009.
But wait… there's MORE!! Even though the UIGEA was an "official" law, they couldn't just spring it on us overnight, despite my earlier claim. The UIGEA came with a time-delay in order to give all interested parties a chance to bring themselves into compliance. That date was December 1st, 2009. Essentially, banks, payment processors and site owners had about ten months to ensure that their practices did not violate the UIGEA.
In May of 2009, Congressman Barney Frank introduced legislation to further delay the UIGEA from taking effect until December 1st, 2010. This bill was put into effect, however the time limit was reduced and the UIGEA became "legally" enforceable on June 1st, 2010 so in essence, it did not take five years for the FBI and DOJ to spring into action. Now most of the illegal payment processing had been put in place well before June 1st, 2010, and on that date a fat little rich boy named Danny had already been secreted away in a New York penthouse for just under two months…
Regarding Compliance:
There were three avenues available to online gaming companies after the UIGEA took effect.
1- Have the UIGEA repealed or somehow ruled illegal.
2- Shut down service to the USA, refunding the bankrolls of all US players.
3- Launder the money.
Not much of a choice, was it?
And the US pretty much knew exactly how the gaming sites would set up their shell corporations because American businesses have been using them as tax dodges for the last century! They didn't have the specifics, of course, but all they needed to do was keep tabs on the principal owners and money men at the gaming sites and wait until one of them dropped in to our country for a visit. Enter Danny Tzvetkoff! They threw that pudgy little douchebag in a hole for a few hours, denied him bail for being a wealthy flight risk and by the time he ran out of tears, BINGO… instant evidence with names, dates, amounts and accounts.
According to rumours that are slowly gaining credibility, little Danny got greedy and started siphoning off his own rake from Full Tilt and poker stars to the tune of $100 million dollars! Allegedly, someone in one of those organizations, thinking they were going to have some fun and get some revenge, tipped the Feds off that Danny would be hangin' at the high stakes tables in Vegas last year. I don't think I'm too far off the mark when I say that this will go down in the annals of poker history as the Ultimate Bad Beat!
Rumour has it that the Feds had already corralled a handful of payment processors before Danny's arrest. I feel very bad for these guys if those rumours are true, because the minute the Feds picked up Danny T, they immediately forgot about any of those bottom-feeders and it will be a looooong time before they ever the light of day!
The UIGEA and the World Trade Organization:
The WTO ruled on January 25th, 2007, that the UIGEA is in violation of US treaty obligations to Antigua by not granting full market access to online gambling companies based in that island nation. The ruling against the US was confirmed again by the WTO five days later. On June 19th, 2007, Antigua filed a $3.4 billion trade sanction claim against the US and additional requests to ignore US patent and copyright laws. This came one day after the EU filed similar compensation demands against the US.
The Bush Administration settled both cases out of court, granting favors and sanctions to Antigua and the EU in "other sectors" and to this date, the United States has kept the terms of the agreements undisclosed under the guise of "national security". ("Gee, guys… If we let the public know how we're using their tax dollars to hide our unconstitutional lawbreaking, they'd whomp the tar out of us! I wouldn't feel secure a'tall!") Essentially, the US broke a legally binding worldwide treaty, but paid off the injured parties to shut them up and make them go away. Do you begin to get a clearer picture of how justice works in New America?
"why would the fbi sit around since 06', not doing anything about sites blatanly running in the U.S. and then up and decide today to take some actions against them? "
Because you, like many others in this country, forget, (or possibly don't know,) how government works.
UIGEA In A Nutshell:
While the bill itself was hastily written and smuggled through Congress on the back of the SAFE Port Act in September of 2006 and signed into law by Junior Bush the following October, there are further necessary steps that needed to be taken before it could actually be enacted.
First the language of the bill required that both the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury Department draft regulations and rules within 270 days of the bills passage and make them available for public comment. While the agencies missed the 270 day deadline, (it took almost a full year,) they eventually published a "Notice of Proposed Rule Making" in October of 2007 which was then tabled for discussion over the following year. 410 banks, advocacy groups, politicians, gambling entities, payment processors and consumers voiced dissent over the NPRM.
Despite the overwhelming sentiment against the regulations, the Bush Administration finalized them on November 12th, 2008, passing them into true law under the "midnight drop." For those unfamiliar with this term, it's used to describe the huge stack of laws and pardons for indicted cronies that an outgoing presidential administration passes before their time in office is up. The Final Rule of the UIGEA went into effect on January 19th, 2009.
But wait… there's MORE!! Even though the UIGEA was an "official" law, they couldn't just spring it on us overnight, despite my earlier claim. The UIGEA came with a time-delay in order to give all interested parties a chance to bring themselves into compliance. That date was December 1st, 2009. Essentially, banks, payment processors and site owners had about ten months to ensure that their practices did not violate the UIGEA.
In May of 2009, Congressman Barney Frank introduced legislation to further delay the UIGEA from taking effect until December 1st, 2010. This bill was put into effect, however the time limit was reduced and the UIGEA became "legally" enforceable on June 1st, 2010 so in essence, it did not take five years for the FBI and DOJ to spring into action. Now most of the illegal payment processing had been put in place well before June 1st, 2010, and on that date a fat little rich boy named Danny had already been secreted away in a New York penthouse for just under two months…
Regarding Compliance:
There were three avenues available to online gaming companies after the UIGEA took effect.
1- Have the UIGEA repealed or somehow ruled illegal.
2- Shut down service to the USA, refunding the bankrolls of all US players.
3- Launder the money.
Not much of a choice, was it?
And the US pretty much knew exactly how the gaming sites would set up their shell corporations because American businesses have been using them as tax dodges for the last century! They didn't have the specifics, of course, but all they needed to do was keep tabs on the principal owners and money men at the gaming sites and wait until one of them dropped in to our country for a visit. Enter Danny Tzvetkoff! They threw that pudgy little douchebag in a hole for a few hours, denied him bail for being a wealthy flight risk and by the time he ran out of tears, BINGO… instant evidence with names, dates, amounts and accounts.
According to rumours that are slowly gaining credibility, little Danny got greedy and started siphoning off his own rake from Full Tilt and poker stars to the tune of $100 million dollars! Allegedly, someone in one of those organizations, thinking they were going to have some fun and get some revenge, tipped the Feds off that Danny would be hangin' at the high stakes tables in Vegas last year. I don't think I'm too far off the mark when I say that this will go down in the annals of poker history as the Ultimate Bad Beat!
Rumour has it that the Feds had already corralled a handful of payment processors before Danny's arrest. I feel very bad for these guys if those rumours are true, because the minute the Feds picked up Danny T, they immediately forgot about any of those bottom-feeders and it will be a looooong time before they ever the light of day!
The UIGEA and the World Trade Organization:
The WTO ruled on January 25th, 2007, that the UIGEA is in violation of US treaty obligations to Antigua by not granting full market access to online gambling companies based in that island nation. The ruling against the US was confirmed again by the WTO five days later. On June 19th, 2007, Antigua filed a $3.4 billion trade sanction claim against the US and additional requests to ignore US patent and copyright laws. This came one day after the EU filed similar compensation demands against the US.
The Bush Administration settled both cases out of court, granting favors and sanctions to Antigua and the EU in "other sectors" and to this date, the United States has kept the terms of the agreements undisclosed under the guise of "national security". ("Gee, guys… If we let the public know how we're using their tax dollars to hide our unconstitutional lawbreaking, they'd whomp the tar out of us! I wouldn't feel secure a'tall!") Essentially, the US broke a legally binding worldwide treaty, but paid off the injured parties to shut them up and make them go away. Do you begin to get a clearer picture of how justice works in New America?
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brank
Back in!
Silver Level
Most likely will never happen as Quebec and BC both have joint online gaming sites already established and legal.
R
ruhrohdingdong
Rising Star
Silver Level
While I believe the person directly responsible for the seizures was appointed by President Bush, the Obama administration has not stopped him and Obama's appointee Eric Holder currently heads the Department of Justice. Usually the DoJ is not super political in nature so anyone arguing that it's a left/right thing is pretty far off although if you want to get into specifics it was Obama's administration who seized money in the past and it was Obama's administration who decided to make those arrests/issue those indictments. That said there are far more Democrats on our side than Republicans although there are certainly anti-poker dems and some in the GOP who are pro-poker.
If they are getting money to US players (and if they're not you obv wouldn't play) they risk the exact same thing that happened to the big 3. I really think CC needs to reconsider the ad on the top of the page as they will be indirectly responsible if the DoJ does decide to seize some more money and the sites decide to run because it's not profitable without the US market.
No not at all. Here is a post from skallagrim who is a lawyer who works for the ppa:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=26079960&postcount=7 said:
It's not even a loophole. Online poker is not unlawful internet gambling period. There is no crime against playing online poker. Unfortunately the DoJ has an edge because quite simply they are the DoJ. But if this case is heard with any fairness whatsoever or unless the DoJ has a new take on the law that no lawyer has ever had and no judge or jury has ever ruled on they will rule that online poker is not unlawful internet gambling. Which is actually why I think there is a decent chance they settle out of court because the DoJ probably doesn't want a ruling on that question to actually happen because it would confirm that they are interpreting the law wrong.
Sucks for Americans. Land of the free, eh?
Might be some juicy games though for us Brits
ok I know there's the
and you're joking but also wanted to comment how bad it was for games.1. idk if you've noticed but there are a ton of US fish
2. I'm not sure if this is still the case but going to fulltiltpoker.com to download the software directed to an FBI page scaring people with vague laws. How many fish after seeing that are going to go to the trouble to find out where to download the real FTP and then put real money on it and play with? Even the non-US fish probably got a little scared in seeing that on what used to be their favorite poker site. And I'm sure Stars is similar.
TheNoob
Visionary
Silver Level
Thanks man. That was a very specific answer to my question.
I do admit to a little confusion though, regarding this:
The DOJ is not going to target players because it is not a Federal crime to play.
Not a crime to play, as such, but the comment in the FBI warning (again, to
the legally untrained) makes it sound like you commit a crime as soon
as you "knowingly accept, in connection with participation of another person
in unlawful Internet gambling, credit, electronic fund transfers, or checks".
So, not a crime to make the wager but becomes a crime when you win
that wager and accept the payment from whoever lost?
D
DREW0
Rock Star
Silver Level
"knowingly accept ......in unlawful internet gambling......." No one has defined POKER as unlawful internet gambling. We have be playing with the hope that if challenged Poker would be termed a game of skill and not ganbling.
pfb8888
Legend
Silver Level
why cant ft ,ps and ub continue to let us play?
because they are holding our money hostage as a bargaining chip vs the us govt? and if they didnt freeze our account we would launder it through friends or moneyswapping sites?
because they are holding our money hostage as a bargaining chip vs the us govt? and if they didnt freeze our account we would launder it through friends or moneyswapping sites?
