Full Tilt Poker Sold to French Investors

cardriverx

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Not really since depositing was such a pain in the ass. Also most online players played more than 1 table (I played up to 16) and we like to always top up and we like to have an extra BI in case the table fish stacks us, and ...

No way to play 100nl with $100 online. Try again.

I'm not saying that it would have been reasonable - you are correct. I'm just saying what one would say from the other perspective.

Are you still writing off that 7k? What do you think the % is that a deal will be made/we get our money back?
 
TeUnit

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not very nice

Originally Posted by Aldito
Sweet, might get my $2.50 back! I still get a lol out of people who left large sums of money on FTP after black Friday

Really, says a lot about you
 
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WVHillbilly

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Are you still writing off that 7k? What do you think the % is that a deal will be made/we get our money back?
No idea. Haven't really followed all the goings on for a while now. I'd say whatever percentage FTP $$s are being brought for on 2+2 is likely pretty accurate.
 
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tcummo

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Hope it works out for WVH.
I only had $200+ on there but none of it was my money anyway.
Good Luck m8
 
WVHillbilly

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Hope it works out for WVH.
I only had $200+ on there but none of it was my money anyway.
Good Luck m8
Thanks. I never thought of it as actual money. It was my BR, or a tool to try to make money. I mean I started with a $50 deposit and never added any money out of my bank account or anything but it still sucks to have it taken away. Those $$ were hard earned and I put lots of time into it. Oh well, such is life.
 
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fletchdad

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Thanks. I never thought of it as actual money. It was my BR, or a tool to try to make money. I mean I started with a $50 deposit and never added any money out of my bank account or anything but it still sucks to have it taken away. Those $$ were hard earned and I put lots of time into it. Oh well, such is life.


Wish I could say this. At the beginning of this year is when I started playing seriously, and deposited 600$ ran it up to over 1000, and lost it all to FT license loss....... Yea, it was a BR for me as well, but did the deposit around February to start a poker plan, got that gig I spoke about in the other thread, so as of end of May was tied up in work and then boom. I was distracted with life and didnt even think too much about my BR at Tilt, so it is my fault as well, as a European player, I could have withdrawn (maybe) but thats all moot now.

Anyway GL to all of us who have $s, €s or whatever moneeeezzzz is there.
 
tenbob

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Rumours flying around today in ireland that FTP are about to let go 500 staff tomorrow.
 
zjohnzzz

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not hearing a lot since announcement of sale
 
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cheaptrix

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Negotiations with the DoJ are not something that reach a final conclusion very quickly, I would imagine.

true, i would imagine nobody is getting a dime until the DOJ releases funds... the dingbat that coined the phrase "ponzi scheme" in regards to FTP didn't understand or refused to acknowledge the fact that the illegally (imo) seized funds make up the shortfall in FTP's records.
 
OzExorcist

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...the illegally (imo) seized funds make up the shortfall in FTP's records.

No, they don't make up the shortfall, and it's not even close. Full Tilt owes somewhere north of $300 million - over $100 million of that is funds they credited to players without any way to withdraw them from the customer bank accounts. And that's just one example. So no, the seized funds don't make up the shortfall.
 
Charade You Are

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No, they don't make up the shortfall, and it's not even close. Full Tilt owes somewhere north of $300 million - over $100 million of that is funds they credited to players without any way to withdraw them from the customer bank accounts. And that's just one example. So no, the seized funds don't make up the shortfall.

The AGCC claims the DOJ seized or froze $331M in FTP assets. Can't find any corroboration. Since they have been seizing $ since at least 2007 from payment processors and they seized $42M from the crooked payment processor FTP was using, 331M doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.
 
alaskabill

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The AGCC claims the DOJ seized or froze $331M in FTP assets. Can't find any corroboration. Since they have been seizing $ since at least 2007 from payment processors and they seized $42M from the crooked payment processor FTP was using, 331M doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.


I believe the AGCC is just taking Full Tilt's word basically for what was seized. It is in FT's interest to make it appear that the DOJ has all of the the money. Most estimates I have seen believe that the amount seized, while large, was not anywhere near 300 million.

Full Tilt treated players deposits as though they were profits to be spent. That isn't the DOJ's fault. Also, re: their claim of 300 million in seizeures, since 2006 that would work out to 60 million per year average seized. If they were losing 60 million a year to seizures, I doubt that they would have stayed in the US market.

The two big issues are the crediting of deposits that they couldn't collect and the paying out of virtually any money they received as dividends. Again, neither of these decisions were made by the DOJ but by the professor, Jesus and Ray "Lobster boy" Bitar.
 
Charade You Are

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As described more fully below, in or about thesummer of 2010, Full Tilt Poker’s payment processing channels were so disrupted that the company faced increasing difficulty attempting to collect funds from players in the United States......As a result, Full Tilt Poker soon developed a massive shortfall between the money owed to United States players and the money actually collected from United States players, with Full Tilt Poker having credited approximately $130 million in phantom money to U.S. players’ online accounts that was never actually collected from players’ bank accounts. Full Tilt Poker never disclosed this shortfall to the public.

So according to the DOJ, in less than a year, FTP was owed $130 million in uncollected deposits and they didn't stop crediting accounts. Not sure they were smart enough to notice $60 million.:rolleyes:

Forbes estimated FTP made $100M in profit on $500M in revenue a year. Some estimates place profits as high as $245M. Since the US was 50-60% of FTP's business, they may have felt the risk was still worth it.

Interesting article on FTP's numbers: http://www.pokercurious.com/blogs/zimba/full-tilt-pokers-numbers-examined
 
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poker d player

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Ohhh - this sounds like great news for all of us! I finally have hope that I will see my $2k again - and everyone else will get their money back!

I agree ... it "sounds" like great news. I sure would like to get my $$ back too !! I'll believe it when I see it. I'm sure we would all like to see them get it up again if just to get our $$ back.
 
OzExorcist

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The AGCC claims the DOJ seized or froze $331M in FTP assets. Can't find any corroboration. Since they have been seizing $ since at least 2007 from payment processors and they seized $42M from the crooked payment processor FTP was using, 331M doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

That's dating all the way back to 2007 though - they can't seriously be expecting to recover funds that were seized that far back?

The more relevant figures, IMO, are their financial situation on or about Black Friday, which looked more like this:

As of March 31, 2011, Full Tilt Poker owed approximately $390 million to players around the world, including approximately $150 million owed to players in the United States. At that time Full Tilt Poker had only approximately $60 million on deposit in its bank accounts. (http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/09/ftp-civil-amended/)​
 
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No, they don't make up the shortfall, and it's not even close. Full Tilt owes somewhere north of $300 million - over $100 million of that is funds they credited to players without any way to withdraw them from the customer bank accounts. And that's just one example. So no, the seized funds don't make up the shortfall.

from what i have read, FTP had about $60 million in assets on BF. over $331 million has been illegally seized over the years.
they owe about $390 million to player accounts, IICR.

That's dating all the way back to 2007 though - they can't seriously be expecting to recover funds that were seized that far back?

why not? clearly they can get that money back if they can prove it was illegally seized.
but more importantly the DOJ may decide to release those funds in the interest of poker players.
 
absoluthamm

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why not? clearly they can get that money back if they can prove it was illegally seized.
but more importantly the DOJ may decide to release those funds in the interest of poker players.
The government is not going to allow Tilt to draw money from players bank accounts that weren't successful in being drawn from in the first place just because FT was doing something they shouldn't have been doing.

That would be the equivalent of the law forcing druggies to pay up on debts to their dealer after he was arrested for wrong-doing
 
alaskabill

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from what i have read, FTP had about $60 million in assets on BF. over $331 million has been illegally seized over the years.
they owe about $390 million to player accounts, IICR.



why not? clearly they can get that money back if they can prove it was illegally seized.
but more importantly the DOJ may decide to release those funds in the interest of poker players.

It is not clear at all that the DOJ's seizures were illegal. I despise the UIGEA but under that law the DOJ maintains that doing transactions for online poker involving American citizens is illegal and while I hope they don't win they certainly might.

Any money they seized pre Black Friday would have been money that processors were handling for Americans and in their view clearly illegal. If Full Tilt had kept funds properly segregated the seizures of American related payment processors would have never affected ROW players. The only reason ROW players can't get paid is because Full Tilt paid out your deposits in the form of dividends and spent it like operating capital.

Pre Black Friday seizures should never have directly affected ROW accounts and the Black Friday seizures wouldn't have affected the accounts if Full Tilt had been operating in a legitimate fashion.

The DOJ has demonstrated clearly, in their dealings with poker stars that any money that the sites can show come from ROW activity will be unfrozen. The DOJ unfroze more poker stars money about a month ago. The problem is FT can't document where the money that they have came from and of course the big problem is they spent/stole most of the money so even if the DOJ unfroze everything and kept only American processor seized funds FT still couldn't pay everyone back.
 
dmorris68

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It is not clear at all that the DOJ's seizures were illegal. I despise the UIGEA but under that law the DOJ maintains that doing transactions for online poker involving American citizens is illegal and while I hope they don't win they certainly might.
Yeah, I'm not always a fan of the DOJ but I do respect their position regarding the law. It's their job to enforce the law as it is written, and I'm okay with that. If what the poker sites are doing is clearly illegal, then the DOJ is certainly acting within its authority to step in, whether we like it or not as poker players.

That said, the argument that it was an illegal seizure under the UIGEA stems from the fact that nowhere in the UIGEA is poker ever mentioned. In fact the UIGEA itself doesn't define ANY gaming as illegal -- as I understand it, the "Unlawful Internet Gaming" reference in the UIGEA is referring to gaming that has been ruled unlawful by precedent and existing laws, such as the Wire Act. The UIGEA was merely an enforcement legislation that laid out the consequences for financial institutions to accept deposits related to whatever internet gaming had already been determined unlawful.

That brings the next argument, which is that existing legislation such as the Wire Act was focused on things like interstate bookmaking and games of chance, and certainly pre-dated any concept of online gaming. The DOJ has been stretching the Wire Act to a great degree in trying to apply it to online poker, and thus far there hasn't been a court judgment either way. If it turns out that a court rules the Wire Act nor any other existing federal legislation applies to online poker, then by definition the UIGEA can't apply to online poker either -- in which case the seizures executed under the UIGEA would have been unlawful.

In reality, unlike many chance games, poker has never specifically been mentioned in any federal legislation. Once the skill argument is settled in our favor -- and so far courts have agreed that poker is a skill game more than a chance game -- it will be even harder to apply any existing legislation such as the Wire Act to online poker.

However there are also legal "safe harbor" protections which can set out that legal actions taken in "good faith" under vague or unclear laws, which are later clarified by court rulings, are allowed to stand. Meaning that even if online poker is found to be exempt, that alone may not be enough to guarantee reversal of the seizures and actions taken against the sites as of Black Friday. Courts could rule that the DOJ acted in good faith based on their interpretation of the law as it was written at the time, and allow it to stand.
 
Mentor

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from what i have read, FTP had about $60 million in assets on BF. over $331 million has been illegally seized over the years.
they owe about $390 million to player accounts, IICR.

http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/10/agcc-331m-wrong-159m/

The Alderney Gambling Control Commission’s report that the US Department of Justice had seized $331 million from Full Tilt Poker over almost four years is false. Subject: Poker believes that the real number is about $159 million. Approximately $35-$45 million was seized from FTP on April 15th.
This caused the AGCC to release this statement:

http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/userfiles/frontpage/FTP_statement.pdf

The underlying evidence in the hearing clearly demonstrated that $331 million was the total of funds unavailable to Full Tilt, of which DOJ seizures formed only a part.
 
alaskabill

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dmorris I agree with you. my main point was that the poster above was making a strong statement about the legality of their action that has yet to be clearly decided yet. I hope it is determined that the seizures were wrong and all of the money can be returned but stating at this time that they were "clearly illegal" is wrong imo.
 
dmorris68

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Regarding legality of the seizures, we also have to remember that UIGEA violations weren't the only legal issues involved. Money laundering could still stand as a legal justification to seize funds. Even if the UIGEA/Wire Act/etc. were found not to apply to online poker, it's not going to be hard to prove the alleged lengths to which sites went around those laws to hide poker transactions, which forms the basis of the money laundering charges. So they might stick even if UIGEA violations are ultimately thrown out, because the obvious intent of the defendants were to bypass the laws as they were interpreted at the time.
 
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