luckyfish98
Legend
Platinum Level
Yes i also think that there are no winners from those who played because everything is covered by 10% fee, imagine how much everyone pays fee on all their money in their whole life
becauce we pay not only from winnings but also from losses, those 10%
In the best case scenario, someone lucky stays at zero in the long run
This is a profitable business exclusively for poker game owners!
and even those who believe that they are only playing freerolls, do not even notice that they are being lured and do not notice that they are starting to pay their money, because it is human nature that a person never has enough and needs more and more
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black and
Legend
Loyaler
It is difficult to say what these statistics actually look like. Perhaps only employees of poker sites have access to such information. In my opinion, it's quite possible that 3-5% of players actually have income from the game. It can't be that absolutely all 100% of players only lose money.
luckyfish98
Legend
Platinum Level
short-term, of course, but I'm talking about every player for the entire length of his life
poker sites are already happy if the advertised % is higher
B
benitwapasu
Visionary
Silver Level
Well I would think the number would be a bit higher because there are probably quite a few lousy players like myself that just freeroll and might make a profit of just a hundred dollars all year but never have a losing year----maybe if I consider the extra electricity I use from playing on a computer I would qualify as a losing player!
amatola
Legend
Platinum Level
If you sharkscope villains, you occasionally get these guys with a profitable slope for thousands of mtts at the micros anyway.
BelFish
Legend
Loyaler
Guys, it's very simple))
The real picture is something like this:
If we look at the sample of players who play exclusively in freerolls, then there are 100% winning players))
If we look at a sample of cheaters in offline poker, then there, too, the percentage of winning players is close to 100%))
And if you look at players of various disciplines of online poker, then even if the number of players who win at least something is close to 15%, then those who can really live exclusively on poker money will definitely be no more than 3%. I would say that this is a realistic figure... I have also heard about some percentage close to this about traders on the stock exchange...
R.Melnyk77
Visionary
Platinum Level
Why do you think this is a myth? Just because you don't have proof of it doesn't mean it can't be real. I think it's just about 10% of players are profitable players.
At least the fact that 90% of players only lose money is more likely to be true
okeedokalee
Glory To Ukraine
Loyaler
I'm up about $7,000 if you consider that to be winning.
I guess when people say winning, they mean big. I know a guy whose brother is up $260,000, saw the proof on Sharkscope. However he may have invested a huge amount elsewhere. Most gamblers have multiple sources of betting. Cards, horses sports...
That was me before I saw the light. Long term you will lose. I restrict by gambling these days to micro stakes and freerolls, just partaking for fun, and have no worries, trying to cover losses.
It also makes watching sport much more enjoyable not having money at risk.
I guess when people say winning, they mean big. I know a guy whose brother is up $260,000, saw the proof on Sharkscope. However he may have invested a huge amount elsewhere. Most gamblers have multiple sources of betting. Cards, horses sports...
That was me before I saw the light. Long term you will lose. I restrict by gambling these days to micro stakes and freerolls, just partaking for fun, and have no worries, trying to cover losses.
It also makes watching sport much more enjoyable not having money at risk.
AKShark
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I think the answer is very complex. it depends on:
- pokersite
- rake paid
- buy-in
- game type
- etc.
dreamer13
Legend
Platinum Level
There are about 70,000 people playing pokerstars right now. But only three percent of them are playing in the black. The majority of players, about 80 percent, are playing in the red, the rest are breaking even. Those three percent who are playing in the black are the "regulars", people who play a lot.
istbno
Rock Star
Platinum Level
It's not a myth; studies and data from various poker sites suggest that only about 5-10% of players are long-term winners. This statistic is due to several factors: rake (the fee taken by the house), variance, and the skill gap between players. Many recreational players lose money over time, while a small percentage of skilled, disciplined players manage to consistently win. It's essential to have a strong understanding of strategy, bankroll management, and the psychological aspects of the game to be among the winners.
s0ftdumps
Rock Star
Platinum Level
The truth about poker, especially in the online and underground scenes, is murky. While we often see the big winners celebrated, there's no doubt that the majority of players end up losing more than they win, particularly after factoring in the rake and fees. The glamorous stories of poker millionaires don’t always reveal the grind, the losses, and the hidden costs. It's also true that in unregulated or illegal gambling environments, the transparency about losses is practically nonexistent, making it even harder to get a clear picture. At the end of the day, poker might be more about managing losses and surviving the variance than about consistently "winning." The house always has its cut, and for many players, that's where a significant portion of their bankroll goes.
pirateglenn
Legend
Platinum Level
I struggle to believe its greater than 5% however without knowing the exact data its based on and over what period of time its collated, its impossible to be precise.
casinos and in particular the online boom that has gripped Poker over the past X amount of years would surely suggest a trend and lets face it - operators want us to believe we have a real chance of winning, thats why RTP % and ROI %was created (return to player and return on investment).
I often smile and feel like everytime a new casino gets built, its like the field of dreams - "if you build it, they will come" .
casinos and in particular the online boom that has gripped Poker over the past X amount of years would surely suggest a trend and lets face it - operators want us to believe we have a real chance of winning, thats why RTP % and ROI %was created (return to player and return on investment).
I often smile and feel like everytime a new casino gets built, its like the field of dreams - "if you build it, they will come" .
thetick33
Legend
Loyaler
this is a deeper ? to me than what your asking....?s you have to ask is how to avoid being put into a category...meaning i have rules to poker to every type of poker every game every tournament etc...i look over my play i continue learning ...back in day had 50 poker rooms played 4 tables at a time on different rooms freerolls at least half and wanted to play 8 tournaments a day at least...basically at that number i always won...so the deeper part is if this is the case? why put all your eggs in one basket? unless your elite? so is this spot on? probably close....if you play both cash and tournaments especially cause same guys get you at the tables cause you keep going back to those tables etc...so those guys wind up getting it back who sit there at 10/20 or whatever and clean house all day every day...if look at acr you see same guys winning the big events but they are also doing 3 man rooms all day and playing cash they are machines have up to 36 rooms...had a buddy did that made 1.5 million over a couple years....i cant play that many but ya....get in get out dont let them see you coming etc...i will say i played ub tilt others and kept playing on pros rooms for a couple years and came out about even well better then even....but not winning like a big nice 4k tournament it was a struggle helped confidence and game but ya till you can get up to 3-6 or something with pros? you will probably lose a lot over time...if you can hang and have very strict rules ? you can win...but a big key i see last advice is people who sit there worried about min cashing in tournaments hell no if you can and got the funds go for it enough to make it worth your while the min cashes help but not like a bing !!!
eberetta1
Legend
Loyaler
I think you hit the nail on the head. At a bare minimum 95 percent of poker players lose money.I think the distribution is roughly the following:
80% of players lose money.
10-15% of players do not spend but do not earn.
5% have a stable profit from the game.
Personally, I belong to those players who have a profit from the game, but this profit is the money I win in tournaments, in which I take part exclusively thanks to the money I win in our CardsChat freerolls. So I would like to thank the community and the entire CardsChat team for my additional income
Poker Orifice
And Still...
Platinum Level
I made a Day2 in a micro WCOOP on Sunday. In the final 25 players, less than 20% were losing players... and over 80% were winning players over the long run but this is just on Pokerstars... I am not sure how they are doing elsewhere but I would surmise it is likely very much the same.
Also, on average, we are talking between 10,000 & 60,000+ MTT's apiece (and again, this is just the games they have played on Pokerstars).
And fwiw, of those 20% who were losing players, some of them are no longer losing players after the score they had from just that one MTT today.
Keep in mind... this is just Tournament play, on 1 site. Stats. taken from 1 tournament and from players who have made it to the final 25. Perhaps those 20% who 'were' losing players some are actually winning cash game players?
Also, fwiw, I don't play Tournaments very often (this weekend's short session of a dozen tournaments was only my 2nd MTT session in months), but when I do, and when I've gotten deep'ish' (in the money) in one, I can tell you that at the MTT stakes I play in ($5 - $33) 65% to 75% of the players at the table are longterm winning players. Those are facts.
Also, on average, we are talking between 10,000 & 60,000+ MTT's apiece (and again, this is just the games they have played on Pokerstars).
And fwiw, of those 20% who were losing players, some of them are no longer losing players after the score they had from just that one MTT today.
Keep in mind... this is just Tournament play, on 1 site. Stats. taken from 1 tournament and from players who have made it to the final 25. Perhaps those 20% who 'were' losing players some are actually winning cash game players?
Also, fwiw, I don't play Tournaments very often (this weekend's short session of a dozen tournaments was only my 2nd MTT session in months), but when I do, and when I've gotten deep'ish' (in the money) in one, I can tell you that at the MTT stakes I play in ($5 - $33) 65% to 75% of the players at the table are longterm winning players. Those are facts.
Poker Orifice
And Still...
Platinum Level
There are plenty of winners. Even still to this day there are MANY who are able to earn a living from online play (even at the low buyin levels for many).
What you view as all of us being losers for paying a 10% fee to online poker rooms, I see as an opportunity to play poker with other people from all around the World.... AND if I 'choose' to put in more work, I can actually win money at it (the amount of work is up to me, the dedication and work ethic is up to me).
I'm not sure why you suggest the rooms are 'illegal'? Is this what you need to do in order to feel better about not putting in the effort (studying) to become a consistently winning player over the longterm? Or is this what you feel the need to do in order to justify playing 100's of fruitless freerolls day after day? Personally I don't begrudge a business owner for providing a business that I CHOOSE to partake in. Not only partake in my own case... for me I 100% APPRECIATE these poker rooms as they give me the ability to play poker from my home! You don't have to play if you don't want to... I'm not sure why you are wanting to blame them for your own shortcomings... at least this is how I perceive your posts.
Do you also eat at McDonalds every single day but then go and complain about how much they are charging you for a burger that isn't even healthy for you to eat? But then you go there and eat another burger right after complaining about it and then go there again the next day and the next? There are alternatives. McDonalds doesn't force you to go there. Are you upset that McDonalds makes a fortune as well? Perhaps nobody should be allowed to run a business or at least not at a profit and if they do, they should have to donate that money to all of those folks who aren't interested in doing the work... the studying... the Hand Review.. the proper game selection... the bankroll management... and more studying.,.. and putting in decent volume... and RINSE & REPEAT a gazillion times.
I can tell you another thing... of all the winning players that I personally know, not a single one of them complains about the pokersites. Imagine that. Also, not one of them comes off sounding like they hate the game (believe it or not, they ALL have an incredible passion for the game!... imagine that!)
Have you ever considered that perhaps this game is just not for you? If you choose to continue to play &/or you KNOW you're going to keep playing, why not put in some effort towards getting better at the game? I mean if you're planning on playing anyways, why not try to win while doing so? (or at least attempt to give yourself a shot at it).
Poker Orifice
And Still...
Platinum Level
How can you be so sure? Who are you including in your sample of players that helps you to come to this conclusion?