Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[braveslice]

I still don’t get 3betting medium pairs. Typically medium pair is 2 street value at best, even against fish right? So raising pre we already use one value round and we have one left for 3streets. That makes is a bit hard to play? Now I don’t say it’s wrong it’s just something I have not figured yet. The profit you show with these is second to pocket aces =) so it can’t be too wrong. About the profit, when looking the tables it seems you seem to make profit from big blind, that can’t be?

“3betting 33 44 I can definitely recommend doing this”

Yes actually I have been trying to implement this to my play because it’s sounds reasonable to do and also you have given it high marks on other topics. I have failed miserably though. Reflex is to call, and thinking is to call, hard to change =) But I will change it for sure. Against min raises not so sure.

I need to check profit, but given all the range I don’t think it’s ok to compare table wise, but vs position.

 

[Figaroo2]

Profit in the BB is relative our figures are for raises and calls NOT including folds....If you folded every hand your loss rate in the BB would be -100bb/100 hands. My rate in the blinds is about -40/100 in the BB and -20 in the sb. The target is -30 and -15 in BB and SB or better. I know I still have work to do in this area.
Regarding the 3betting mid pairs this is more about 3betting being better than calling because you have the iniative and cbetting will still be a profitable play. When you cold call in the blinds you have no initiative and are oop which is a recipe for burning money.
There is a line where too much 3betting becomes unprofitable we need to find what is optimal for the games we play in, there is nothing wrong with 3betting 15% if it's profitable and no one is adjusting. I noticed in that other recent thread that you were only 3betting 5.ish% at 6 max. I would suggest that you need to increase that up to at least 7-8% and you will see an immediate increase in profits

 

[Alucard]

Don't you have to be a bit tighter with your 3 betting range while playing zoom? Because of the likeliness the villain has a good preflop hand than in a normal ring?

And how do you calculate the profits and losses like that? I use PT4. Is there an option?

 

[Figaroo2]

Well personally when I play zoom if it folds quickly to me on the button and I have nits in the blinds I'm opening probably 70% of hands, 100% if they are insanely tight. So you shouldn't assume late position raisers are any stronger than normal.
And conversely if I see someone in the blinds with 7%+ 3betting stats I will open quite a bit tighter and release my marginal hands. So if you have a low 3bet% you are inviting steals and vice versa.
What I notice regularly is guys that 3bet a lot from the blinds but still have no 5bet shove range and I light 4bet these guys all the time and it nearly always gets through. The really good players have a 3-5% 5bet shove range.
I do tend to give EP/MP openers more credit in zoom.

 

[Alucard]

Guys here's a situation I do not quite understand that much.

How would you play a Flush draw with 2 suited cards on the flop?
I generally follow doug polk's guide to playing flush draws 2017.

But it doesn't say that much about what to do when facing huge aggression.

If I call a flop bet and the turn comes a brick, I'm in a tough spot. I've seen some people in here recommends that you should raise big & shove the turn if that happens. But what is the mos profitable play EV+ wise?

Here's a situation I faced today. But I think I have more equity since a gutshot is on the board as well.

I'd generally not lead a flush draw against one opponent unless I got two overcards or a potential straight draw according to Doug's guide, And here I though it'd be better to isolate or get value early on if possible. But facing the shove what is the right play?

Spoiler

888 Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 17.42, PFR: 4.36, 3Bet Preflop: 1.44, Hands: 578)
SB: 105.5 BB (VPIP: 34.21, PFR: 9.65, 3Bet Preflop: 2.13, Hands: 115)
BB: 72.5 BB (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
Hero (UTG): 211 BB
CO: 76.5 BB (VPIP: 23.31, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 133)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Th Qh
Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop : (12 BB, 4 players) 8h 3s Jh
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 7 BB, BTN raises to 95.5 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, Hero calls 88.5 BB

Turn : (203 BB, 2 players) 5s

River : (203 BB, 2 players) 9s

BTN shows 8c 8d (Three of a Kind, Eights)
(Pre 51%, Flop 65%, Turn 77%)

Hero shows Th Qh (Straight, Queen High)
(Pre 49%, Flop 35%, Turn 23%)

Hero wins 190.5 BB

 

[braveslice]

Yeah, 3betting should be close theory optimal =) what that means I don't know.

 

[braveslice]

So for general comments (please be rude) this is my BU stats around 800 hands per position, overall negative 42bb/100

First all positions open vs

After checking my BB vs BU I find out that it’s the position I play way too fishy. I know they have nothing, but also they know I have nothing =) So win rate is greatly altered by me being anything between agro fish to passive fish.

My 3bet range in % against BU open:

 

[Figaroo2]

Guys here's a situation I do not quite understand that much.
How would you play a Flush draw with 2 suited cards on the flop?
I generally follow doug polk's guide to playing flush draws 2017.
But it doesn't say that much about what to do when facing huge aggression.
If I call a flop bet and the turn comes a brick, I'm in a tough spot. I've seen some people in here recommends that you should raise big & shove the turn if that happens. But what is the mos profitable play EV+ wise?
Here's a situation I faced today. But I think I have more equity since a gutshot is on the board as well.
I'd generally not lead a flush draw against one opponent unless I got two overcards or a potential straight draw according to Doug's guide, And here I though it'd be better to isolate or get value early on if possible. But facing the shove what is the right play?

Spoiler

888 Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 5 players
BTN: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 17.42, PFR: 4.36, 3Bet Preflop: 1.44, Hands: 578)
SB: 105.5 BB (VPIP: 34.21, PFR: 9.65, 3Bet Preflop: 2.13, Hands: 115)
BB: 72.5 BB (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
Hero (UTG): 211 BB
CO: 76.5 BB (VPIP: 23.31, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 133)
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Th Qh
Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB calls 2 BB
Flop : (12 BB, 4 players) 8h 3s Jh
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 7 BB, BTN raises to 95.5 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, Hero calls 88.5 BB
Turn : (203 BB, 2 players) 5s
River : (203 BB, 2 players) 9s
BTN shows 8c 8d (Three of a Kind, Eights)
(Pre 51%, Flop 65%, Turn 77%)
Hero shows Th Qh (Straight, Queen High)
(Pre 49%, Flop 35%, Turn 23%)
Hero wins 190.5 BB

Well as shown you only had 35% equity on the flop (which I confirmed) so you should have folded.
It was a terrible shove by the villian. He was relying on you being strong and not folding and you got lucky. Players at 2nl often massively shove all in with nutted hands hoping that inexperienced players can't lay down hands like top pair top kicker or overpairs. These big overshoves shoves are nearly always for value

The problem here is that a few of your outs are 'dirty'
You have nine flush outs and four 9 outs but you can't double count the 9 of hearts and the 3 of hearts gives him a boat.
Also here he could have a better flush draw than you, if he had any nut flush draw with the ace of hearts you are in even worse shape than if he had a set.

 

[Figaroo2]

Here is an interesting article. I remember watching this webinar some time ago and trying to incorporate the check raise bluff but had forgotton about it. I see no reason why it can't be used in cash games. J Little has a decent following so you might expect to start seeing this at the tables. spot the deliberate error early in the piece.
http://floattheturn.com/wp/blog/assassinato-big-blind-check-raise-strategy/

 

[Figaroo2]

So for general comments (please be rude) this is my BU stats around 800 hands per position, overall negative 42bb/100
First all positions open vs

After checking my BB vs BU I find out that it’s the position I play way too fishy. I know they have nothing, but also they know I have nothing =) So win rate is greatly altered by me being anything between agro fish to passive fish.

My 3bet range in % against BU open:

Well clearly your results are better when you're 3betting rather than calling. (apart from the button?!)
This is expected but the fact that you are losing in all positions when just cold calling is obviously concerning and suggests to me that you are too fit and fold. I suggest you float more in position against 1 and done merchants who cbet but won't double barrel unimproved. Out of position you can try the check raise flop bluff or the lead over bet turn against stealers and loose players.
With the 3bet hands spread you seem to be more heavy unsuited rather than suited. I think you'd be better the other way around as picking up flush draws gives you extra equity for barrelling the turn.

 

[braveslice]

Thx Fig, just to be sure I was clear enough. Those are my BU stats against open from UTG to SB 6max. This is a bit confusing really, how come my calls are all negative overall -40bb would suggest that is not the case. I should only 3bet from oop lol.

 

[Figaroo2]

Thx Fig, just to be sure I was clear enough. Those are my BU stats against open from UTG to SB 6max. This is a bit confusing really, how come my calls are all negative overall -40bb would suggest that is not the case. I should only 3bet from oop lol.

How can SB stats be included here if it is your button stats versus other positions that have opened in front of you?
The SB can't open b4 you and you can't 3bet v SB it would be a 4bet

 

[braveslice]

How can SB stats be included here if it is your button stats versus other positions that have opened in front of you?
The SB can't open b4 you and you can't 3bet v SB it would be a 4bet

Lol it can't. Sorry I am currently drinking small whiskey bottle. I meant my position is big blind, after all that was the John's advice to talk about.

 

[Figaroo2]

Thoughts on the river here?

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $36.52 (146.1 bb)
BB: $10 (40 bb)
UTG+2: $28.15 (112.6 bb)
MP1: $29.47 (117.9 bb)
MP2: $35.02 (140.1 bb)
Hero (MP3): $32.08 (128.3 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $39.62 (158.5 bb) VPIP: 17, PFR: 17, 3B: 5, AF: 3.0, Hands: 58

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T

T

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, CO folds, BTN raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.85) J

8

2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($4.85) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.39, BTN raises to $5.10, Hero calls $3.71

River: ($15.05) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $10.78,
Hero?
I'm like...what's this bet sizing after he checks the flop through?? There are plenty of draws around this flop and I block the straights on the end, his betting makes no sense.

 

[Figaroo2]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25 (100 bb)
Hero (BB): $36.63 (146.5 bb)
UTG+1: $24.60 (98.4 bb)
UTG+2: $35.23 (140.9 bb)
MP1: $26.36 (105.4 bb)
MP2: $10 (40 bb)VPIP: 16, PFR: 14, 3B: 5, AF: 3.7, Hands: 569
MP3: $10.65 (42.6 bb)
CO: $27.11 (108.4 bb)
BTN: $27.80 (111.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8

8

3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.75, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 9

J

2

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $1.02, Hero raises to $2.50, MP2 folds

Results: $3.64 pot ($0.16 rake)
Final Board: 9

J

2

Hero mucked 8

8

and won $3.48 ($1.71 net)
MP2 mucked and lost (-$1.77 net)

Not sure about this... we have showdown value, better hands call, worse hands fold but we do realise our equity against overcards but our backdoors are pretty weak and its going to be tough to call another barrel if we just call.
This was off the back of the check raise bluff stuff, any thoughts? I'm thinking maybe with weaker hands maybe 33 44 55

 

[braveslice]

Well clearly your results are better when you're 3betting rather than calling. (apart from the button?!)
This is expected but the fact that you are losing in all positions when just cold calling is obviously concerning and suggests to me that you are too fit and fold. I suggest you float more in position against 1 and done merchants who cbet but won't double barrel unimproved. Out of position you can try the check raise flop bluff or the lead over bet turn against stealers and loose players.
With the 3bet hands spread you seem to be more heavy unsuited rather than suited. I think you'd be better the other way around as picking up flush draws gives you extra equity for barrelling the turn.

Oh my god I’m actually losing from BU massively by calling against every position but BU How can that even be possible? My total call 2bet from big blind is -80bb/100 (I guess I win multiway), so even that stat does not make sense. Also this month shows positive result from every position. And yes my WWSF is fish like, like you guessed.

 

[braveslice]

This is getting scary. This year hero called big blind 576 times and paid 16.95 dollars, 169.5 bb rake.

That is hero paid rake 29.44bb/100 when he called from big blind. If this is true you can’t call from big blind like ever. Is there a bug in poker tracker?

 

[Figaroo2]

The other thing of note in those Braveslice stats was that the VPIP is near enough the same UTG MP CO which is all around 17, I'd suggest trimming a couple of % off of EP, to 14-15% MP similar but then increasing your CO opening range up a fair amount around 27-30% seems ok. Button you maybe can get your vpip up around 40. but again you need to have the postflop game in place otherwise its pointless playing more hands.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $36.52 (146.1 bb)
BB: $10 (40 bb)
UTG+2: $28.15 (112.6 bb)
MP1: $29.47 (117.9 bb)
MP2: $35.02 (140.1 bb)
Hero (MP3): $32.08 (128.3 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $39.62 (158.5 bb) VPIP: 17, PFR: 17, 3B: 5, AF: 3.0, Hands: 58

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T

T

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, CO folds, BTN raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.85) J

8

2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($4.85) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.39, BTN raises to $5.10, Hero calls $3.71

River: ($15.05) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $10.78,
Hero?
I'm like...what's this bet sizing after he checks the flop through?? There are plenty of draws around this flop and I block the straights on the end, his betting makes no sense.

Looks like AJ

 

[braveslice]

The other thing of note in those Braveslice stats was that the VPIP is near enough the same UTG MP CO which is all around 17, I'd suggest trimming a couple of % off of EP, to 14-15% MP similar but then increasing your CO opening range up a fair amount around 27-30% seems ok. Button you maybe can get your vpip up around 40. but again you need to have the postflop game in place otherwise its pointless playing more hands.

Just to be sure, this is my Big Blind range vs open from named position. I'm quite sure your preferred style is not 40% defense from big blind vs button?

Yes "UTG MP CO which is all around 17"looks wrong, but before I understand if calling is even possible profitably I just tighten up hugely. My 3bet % was 12% last 2 sessions because I couldn’t call!! (So from big blind I would guess around 17% ) but well I honestly don't know what to do next. 30bb/100 rake is too massive. One needs to be super player to have edge like that with positional disadvantage and range disadvantage. I could call at 2NL I hope

 

[braveslice]

Noob friendly discussion about BB defense, interesting because cash and tourneys are compared.

https://www.upswingpoker.com/big-blind-defend-strategy-mtt-vs-cash/

 

[John A]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $36.52 (146.1 bb)
BB: $10 (40 bb)
UTG+2: $28.15 (112.6 bb)
MP1: $29.47 (117.9 bb)
MP2: $35.02 (140.1 bb)
Hero (MP3): $32.08 (128.3 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $39.62 (158.5 bb) VPIP: 17, PFR: 17, 3B: 5, AF: 3.0, Hands: 58

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T

T

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, CO folds, BTN raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.85) J

8

2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($4.85) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.39, BTN raises to $5.10, Hero calls $3.71

River: ($15.05) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $10.78,
Hero?
I'm like...what's this bet sizing after he checks the flop through?? There are plenty of draws around this flop and I block the straights on the end, his betting makes no sense.

You bet small on the turn to induce this correct? I'd follow through and call it off on the river at this point. But yeah, his betting makes no sense. It would be a really bad bluff if it was a bluff.

He could maybe check 8x on the flop just for pot control I guess. If I were assigning a range it would be whiffed flush, air, 8x, and maybe a discounted AJ.

 

[John A]

Noob friendly discussion about BB defense, interesting because cash and tourneys are compared.

https://www.upswingpoker.com/big-blind-defend-strategy-mtt-vs-cash/

Yeah, if you notice, I'm in the comment section there.

And these are the intelligent (lemming) responses...

Well... equity needed to call = 19.6%, 72o equity vs range = 31.39%. (31.39% - 10%) > 19.6%. It's all in the article, they just don't use the fixed 10% disadvantage (which you shouldn't either imo)\



Like · Reply · Aug 5, 2017 1:19am
Mike Brady · Works at Potato Chips
Every hand realizes equity differently, and very few realize less than 66% of their raw equity, especially against a very loose button range.

A somewhat decent player can profitably defend 72o quite easily.

So based on what these people are taking away, you should defend w/ 72o and essentially all hands, and there's no positional equity disadvantage.

lol

Doug's site says it's true, so it must be true.

Just another bad piece of training site advice (and I like Doug and upswing). But this article is po-po imho. The actual data from players doesn't back up the raw equity conclusions they are making.

 

[Figaroo2]

You bet small on the turn to induce this correct? I'd follow through and call it off on the river at this point. But yeah, his betting makes no sense. It would be a really bad bluff if it was a bluff.

He could maybe check 8x on the flop just for pot control I guess. If I were assigning a range it would be whiffed flush, air, 8x, and maybe a discounted AJ.

I don't know why I bet that sizing on the turn, just hoping to fold out his overcards and realise my equity or at least charge any flush draws something I suppose.
I certainly wasn't betting small in order to induce a bluff. I think in hindsight if I'm going to lead out here on the turn I needed to bet at least 60% pot. How would you have played the turn here?

When he raises the turn I still don't think he's very strong here after the flop check, it feels like he's just messing around so I called to evaluate the river.

AJ would make sense for the flop check as he should be putting a fair amount of QQ in my range, but makes no sense on the end. It's a 3 bet pot he shouldn't have much if any 8x. JJ actually makes the most sense to me. I did fold the hand in confusion tbh.

 

[John A]

I don't know why I bet that sizing on the turn, just hoping to fold out his overcards and realise my equity or at least charge any flush draws something I suppose.
I certainly wasn't betting small in order to induce a bluff. I think in hindsight if I'm going to lead out here on the turn I needed to bet at least 60% pot. How would you have played the turn here?

When he raises the turn I still don't think he's very strong here after the flop check, it feels like he's just messing around so I called to evaluate the river.

AJ would make sense for the flop check as he should be putting a fair amount of QQ in my range, but makes no sense on the end. It's a 3 bet pot he shouldn't have much if any 8x. JJ actually makes the most sense to me. I did fold the hand in confusion tbh.

8x is squarely in his range, more so than AJ. People 3-bet suited connectors a ton now a days. AJ makes more sense than JJ. And betting AJ on the end after you just call the raise is highly possible. It's not at the top of my range for this guy. It would go 8x, whiffed flush, AJ, 9T, JJ, 33, in that order for me.