Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Figaroo2]

I was given these recently re playing from the blinds

I think it was Fknife gave me these, I think they were for 6 max but there isn't really any difference, apologies if it wasn't. Top is a polarised 3 betting range against a button opener and the bottom a calling range. Personally I prefer to move the suited hands one row left at FR in both charts. The calling range must also be against LP opener calling that wide. I'm not sure its too wide K6s K7s Q7s Q8s Id rather have in my 3bet range.
During my leakbuster review it said I was preforming better 3 betting small pairs from the blinds rather than calling with them, so I'm currently doing that unless its an EP/MP raise.
In your 7% chart Rhom why wouldn't you 3 bet AK AQ? I'd also dump using the unsuited small aces.

 

[rhombus]

In your 7% chart Rhom why wouldn't you 3 bet AK AQ? I'd also dump using the unsuited small aces.

OOPs my mistake I was copying a balanced 3 betting Range from a video and forgot to add LOL full range was nearly 16% admittedly from a tournament player but thought could do well at Cash as well. I was taking out hands to get to around 7%

Wondered at the time as i didnt have to take out many of them, but agree with you about takng out the offsuit low aces. Heres how it should look like

 

[rhombus]

full list was

 

[hutzpaf]

Have you tried Equilab charts

 

[Figaroo2]

whats your 3betting range from the blinds and how does it differ from different positions?

Should it be higher in the blinds especially from Aggro Late position Openers

for me a good 7% 3Bet range would be something like. Thoughts on 3Betting Range Good/Bad????

Rhom we talked about this before. Have a review of Johns good post here

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...er-vol-i-study-group-227214/post-2665590.html

The flopzilla charts were posted by Mottom.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...er-vol-i-study-group-227214/post-2661984.html
who i ive noticed hasnt been posting recently...come back buddy...your input was always welcomed

 

[Figaroo2]

Have you tried Equilab charts

Yeah that looks about right for a linear 3bet list. But I agree with John about not getting locked into specific lists and tables. In extreme If someone is folding 100% to 3 bets then atc will do and its finding the right balance for each villian.

 

[hutzpaf]

Yeah that looks about right for a linear 3bet list. But I agree with John about not getting locked into specific lists and tables.

Agree, It's only the basic guideline.

 

[John A]

Hey guys, I've been traveling this week. I'm going to be back in a couple of days.

What I wanted to ask / address was any votes on specific topics we should address? I'd be happy to dive as deep as we can into a topic and focus some energies on that for a bit (as well as keep it open for general questions and hand reviews).

 

[Figaroo2]

Playing from the BB is causing me the most issues in particular appropriate aggression levels in 3bet pots when we get called and we are oop.


Bet sizing versus fish. Once he raised on the turn this always looked good, I just put him all in hoping that it wasn't A5.
A few hands before this he had called down a reasonable sized bluff with Q high on a 44T77 board when I had 22 and got counterfeited so I knew he was a station.

IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $12.92 (129.2 bb)
Hero (BB): $10 (100 bb)
UTG: $13.20 (132 bb) 71/14/26 in 35 hands whale
MP: $5.60 (56 bb) 57/5/27 in 61 hands fish
CO: $11.20 (112 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3:spade: 3:club:
UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.35) 5:club: 3:diamond: 5:heart: (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks
I was thinking I might as well go ahead and lead out, if they have a 5 I'll hear about it however, this is a very tough board to connect on so I decided that checking one street and allowing them to catch something on this board might be more fruitful.

Turn: ($0.35) 8:club: (3 players)
Hero bets $0.28, UTG raises to $0.56, MP folds, Hero raises to $1.62, UTG calls $1.06

River: ($3.59) A:club: (2 players)
A good card might give him a flush I expect to get called here by this player
Hero bets $8.28 and is all-in, UTG calls $8.28

Results: $20.15 pot ($1.34 rake)
Final Board: 5:club: 3:diamond: 5:heart: 8:club: A:club:
Hero mucked 3:spade: 3:club: and won $18.81 ($8.81 net)
UTG showed 5:spade: 6:heart: and lost (-$10 net)

 

[John A]

Looks fine. I'd probably re-raise the turn larger. Might as well over shove, especially with your read. He either has 5x or nothing else he's calling with and it sounds like he'll pay off. NH.

 

[Figaroo2]

These are the sort of hands that are hurting me.

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
Hero (SB): $25 (100 bb)
BB: $25.40 (101.6 bb)
UTG+2: $29.26 (117 bb)
MP1: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
MP2: $25 (100 bb)
MP3: $27.89 (111.6 bb)
CO: $25.58 (102.3 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A:diamond: J:diamond:
5 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.50, BB folds, BTN calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.25) 7:diamond: 7:spade: 8:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $3.75, BTN calls $3.75

Turn: ($12.75) T:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $3.50, BTN raises to $13.09, Hero folds

Results: $19.75 pot ($0.89 rake)
Final Board: 7:diamond: 7:spade: 8:heart: T:spade:
Hero mucked A:diamond: J:diamond: and lost (-$9.75 net)
BTN mucked and won $18.86 ($9.11 net)

Villain is a decent reg slightly on the tight side but still 25% steal. I felt ahead of his range here.
John...Tried that smaller turn raise you suggested but not sure if its appropriate here, I can't see what it represents tbh. Looks like I might as well have checked the turn with the gutshot and overs and hope he checks behind to get a free card. When I shove in these spots I always seem to get stacked.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $25.10 (100.4 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $27.89 (111.6 bb)
MP1: $25.58 (102.3 bb)
MP2: $34.46 (137.8 bb)
Hero (MP3): $29.94 (119.8 bb)
CO: $25.05 (100.2 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A:diamond: T:diamond:
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, 2 folds, SB raises to $2.25, BB folds, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.75) A:club: 7:heart: 8:spade: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.27, SB calls $2.27

Turn: ($9.29) 6:spade: (2 players)
SB bets $4.75, Hero calls $4.75

River: ($18.79) 7:spade: (2 players)
SB bets $15.83 and is all-in, Hero folds (I can't work out what he is repping here with a 3bet, check, donk lead ,shove line?)

Results: $18.79 pot ($0.85 rake)
Final Board: A:club: 7:heart: 8:spade: 6:spade: 7:spade:
SB mucked and won $17.94 ($8.67 net)
Hero mucked A:diamond: T:diamond: and lost (-$9.27 net)

I have 2k of hands against this decent reg who just is a 3 bet monkey from the SB and never seems gives up once he's raised. I've stacked him a few times in preflop raising wars.
Notes say last time went to showdown against me after he 3bet from the SB he had A2o.
I had already 4bet 3 times in 52 hands at this table so decided to call here bearing in mind he can get pretty light. Maybe 4bet or fold this hand even so?

 

[John A]

These are the sort of hands that are hurting me.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
Hero (SB): $25 (100 bb)
BB: $25.40 (101.6 bb)
UTG+2: $29.26 (117 bb)
MP1: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
MP2: $25 (100 bb)
MP3: $27.89 (111.6 bb)
CO: $25.58 (102.3 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A♦ J♦
5 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.50, BB folds, BTN calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.25) 7♦ 7♠ 8♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $3.75, BTN calls $3.75

Turn: ($12.75) T♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $3.50, BTN raises to $13.09, Hero folds

Results: $19.75 pot ($0.89 rake)
Final Board: 7♦ 7♠ 8♥ T♠
Hero mucked A♦ J♦ and lost (-$9.75 net)
BTN mucked and won $18.86 ($9.11 net)

Villain is a decent reg slightly on the tight side but still 25% steal. I felt ahead of his range here.
John...Tried that smaller turn raise you suggested but not sure if its appropriate here, I can't see what it represents tbh. Looks like I might as well have checked the turn with the gutshot and overs and hope he checks behind to get a free card. When I shove in these spots I always seem to get stacked.

Yeah, not the right spot to bet the turn, especially small. If he's calling on this board, it's unlikely he's folding that turn unless it was purely a naked or A high float, and if it was, then the small bet just sets him up perfectly for a bluff raise. I'd have c/f'd the turn w/o better info.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $25.10 (100.4 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $27.89 (111.6 bb)
MP1: $25.58 (102.3 bb)
MP2: $34.46 (137.8 bb)
Hero (MP3): $29.94 (119.8 bb)
CO: $25.05 (100.2 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A♦ T♦
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, 2 folds, SB raises to $2.25, BB folds, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.75) A♣ 7♥ 8♠ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.27, SB calls $2.27

Turn: ($9.29) 6♠ (2 players)
SB bets $4.75, Hero calls $4.75

River: ($18.79) 7♠ (2 players)
SB bets $15.83 and is all-in, Hero folds (I can't work out what he is repping here with a 3bet, check, donk lead ,shove line?)

Results: $18.79 pot ($0.85 rake)
Final Board: A♣ 7♥ 8♠ 6♠ 7♠
SB mucked and won $17.94 ($8.67 net)
Hero mucked A♦ T♦ and lost (-$9.27 net)

I have 2k of hands against this decent reg who just is a 3 bet monkey from the SB and never seems gives up once he's raised. I've stacked him a few times in preflop raising wars.
Notes say last time went to showdown against me after he 3bet from the SB he had A2o.
I had already 4bet 3 times in 52 hands at this table so decided to call here bearing in mind he can get pretty light. Maybe 4bet or fold this hand even so?

I'd just check the flop then in that case since you have position, and just pot control since it will be hard to stack off with just top pair here and win. I don't mind the flop bet, but that's just how I'd approach it. He likely had 7x, 8x, or some kind of draw / combo that the turn helped. So he either rivered a flush or 7x or 76. He probably bets 87 on the flop. Any ways, I think you played it fine. I'd just have checked the flop.

 

[rhombus]

Hand 1 hits his calling range with all the middling cards, also if he did have small pocket pair he wouldnt fold either.

I would have tried to get to showdown

Hand 2

River: ($18.79) 7♠ (2 players)
SB bets $15.83 and is all-in, Hero folds (I can't work out what he is repping here with a 3bet, check, donk lead ,shove line?)

Maybe something like KsJs - would 3Bet pre,
Call on flop with backdor Flush
Donk Lead Turn with flush draw
Then shove River once he hits

 

[Figaroo2]

Thanks Rhom, hand 2 yes I like the thinking of the half pot lead on the turn with the flush draw to set the price. That makes sense if he'd checked again I could price him out totally, not that I would have bet any more than half pot myself there on the turn with tp and a gutshot.

 

[John A]

So no one wants to take me up on a new focused topic? I'll pick one if no one has anything, but thought I'd throw it out there first.

 

[Figaroo2]

So no one wants to take me up on a new focused topic? I'll pick one if no one has anything, but thought I'd throw it out there first.

Playing from the BB is causing me the most issues in particular appropriate aggression levels in 3/4bet pots. Knowing when should we give up and when should we barrel/shove?

 

[rhombus]

So no one wants to take me up on a new focused topic? I'll pick one if no one has anything, but thought I'd throw it out there first.

Breakdown of individual HUD Stats or some Filters to check out?????

 

[rhombus]

also when to Bet/Fold

 

[John A]

Playing from the BB is causing me the most issues in particular appropriate aggression levels in 3/4bet pots. Knowing when should we give up and when should we barrel/shove?

That's funny. I was going to suggest 3-bet ranges from BB vs open button and open SB.

 

[rhombus]

Im a calling machine.

In general against average player (no reads) at what point do you fold

i.e. Villain raises from Button you have A8s and call
Flop Q82r Villain Bets I call
Turn Q826 Villain Bets I call
River Brick Villain Bets I call

Villain random Q like QJ

Im constantly running into these spots, is it unlucky or maybe fold to triple barrels unless they are aggros

 

[Figaroo2]

Im a calling machine.
In general against average player (no reads) at what point do you fold
i.e. Villain raises from Button you have A8s and call
Flop Q82r Villain Bets I call
Turn Q826 Villain Bets I call
River Brick Villain Bets I call
Villain random Q like QJ
Im constantly running into these spots, is it unlucky or maybe fold to triple barrels unless they are aggros

Its such a dry board Id assume he has it after the 3rd barrel. (3rd packet of info that says betting for value. Plenty of AQ KQ here as well as QJ)
I'm having a terrible time as well at the moment, running cold and bad and just getting run over, then trying to force something to happen which makes it worse.

 

[Figaroo2]

Classic, tilting hand,. I know I should fold the turn here, but calling a 4 bet with that garbage oop, give me a fing break.
I was already tilted before this hand after an all in suckout by a fish. At least I was semi sensible and had dropped down to 5nl deep.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05, $0.01 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $21.83 (436.6 bb) 31/16/30 loose and not very aggressive.
BB: $5.89 (117.8 bb)
MP: $5.78 (115.6 bb)
CO: $15.48 (309.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $12.67 (253.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A:spade: A:diamond:
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, SB raises to $0.40, BB folds, Hero raises to $1.30, SB calls $0.90

Flop: ($2.70) 7:diamond: 7:club: T:heart: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.29, SB calls $1.29

Turn: ($5.28) 6:diamond: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.53, SB raises to $7.59, Hero calls $5.06 (I'm like nooooooooo dont call...........click call just to prove I can't be as unlucky as to run into something in a 4 bet pot on that board,,,,i expected to see TT tbh

River: ($20.46) 2:club: (2 players)
SB bets $11.64 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.48 and is all-in

Results: $25.42 pot ($1 rake)
Final Board: 7:diamond: 7:club: T:heart: 6:diamond: 2:club:
SB showed 8:heart: 9:diamond: and won $24.42 ($11.75 net)
Hero showed A:spade: A:diamond: and lost (-$12.67 net)

 

[rhombus]

Classic, tilting hand,. I know I should fold the turn here, but calling a 4 bet with that garbage oop, give me a fing break.
I was already tilted before this hand after an all in suckout by a fish. At least I was semi sensible and had dropped down to 5nl deep.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05, $0.01 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $21.83 (436.6 bb) 31/16/30 loose and not very aggressive.
BB: $5.89 (117.8 bb)
MP: $5.78 (115.6 bb)
CO: $15.48 (309.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $12.67 (253.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A♠ A♦
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, SB raises to $0.40, BB folds, Hero raises to $1.30, SB calls $0.90

Flop: ($2.70) 7♦ 7♣ T♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.29, SB calls $1.29

Turn: ($5.28) 6♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.53, SB raises to $7.59, Hero calls $5.06 (I'm like nooooooooo dont call...........click call just to prove I can't be as unlucky as to run into something in a 4 bet pot on that board,,,,i expected to see TT tbh

River: ($20.46) 2♣ (2 players)
SB bets $11.64 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.48 and is all-in

Results: $25.42 pot ($1 rake)
Final Board: 7♦ 7♣ T♥ 6♦ 2♣
SB showed 8♥ 9♦ and won $24.42 ($11.75 net)
Hero showed A♠ A♦ and lost (-$12.67 net)

at first sight its like WTF then realised you are over 250 blinds deep. When really deepstacked suited connectors go way up in value and hands like AK and to a degree AA go way down

although as played especially at this level majority of time you have his AT JJ QQ KK crushed

PS nothing wrong with dropping I'm at 1c/2c NL ZOOM LOL

going through my database and trying to win at every level from 1c/2c currently about even at $2nl although small sample

 

[John A]

Im a calling machine.

In general against average player (no reads) at what point do you fold

i.e. Villain raises from Button you have A8s and call
Flop Q82r Villain Bets I call
Turn Q826 Villain Bets I call
River Brick Villain Bets I call

Villain random Q like QJ

Im constantly running into these spots, is it unlucky or maybe fold to triple barrels unless they are aggros

Yeah, even though it's a general question, I hear this kind of statement a lot. So I have some general suggestions, being the reasonably decent poker coach that I am. lol

If you think there's a reasonable chance you have the best hand, then min raise the turn for value and for cheaper showdown. This looks a little bit like an oxymoron at first, but it's great for mid strength hands where you are borderline on whether you're best, and you're not facing some over aggro opponent that it's not just better to call down with.

I'll use your example above to demonstrate. Your opponent will likely bet the turn with all Qx, most 8x, some gut shots, and other mid pairs like 99+. If you min raise the turn, you'll get some worse 8x to call, some mid pairs will fold (albeit a small % of the time), weak Qx and even high one pair hands will just call all the time, and hand that are stronger will re-raise and you can fold. 98% of the time when your opponent just calls, they'll check the river. If you improve, you can bet, if not, you can go for a cheaper showdown.

You take control of the hand, add more aggression to your game (because then you can also do this for value w/ bigger hands), and control the pot better. Min raising the turn is cheaper than calling the river.

Now, you're only doing this if you were planning on calling the river. If you weren't then bluff raise or fold of course.

Another option is just raising the flop (when in position). In this case, sometimes you can get better hands to fold, and then you can check the turn and see 2 more cards. Most of the time, unless your opponent has a monster, they will check 2 streets after you raise the flop.

Both of those are options to control the pot better. Which option you use depends on flop texture and opponent. Versus regulars, min raising the turn is effective. Versus weaker players, raising the flop smallish is effective.

I hope that helps.

 

[John A]

Classic, tilting hand,. I know I should fold the turn here, but calling a 4 bet with that garbage oop, give me a fing break.
I was already tilted before this hand after an all in suckout by a fish. At least I was semi sensible and had dropped down to 5nl deep.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05, $0.01 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $21.83 (436.6 bb) 31/16/30 loose and not very aggressive.
BB: $5.89 (117.8 bb)
MP: $5.78 (115.6 bb)
CO: $15.48 (309.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $12.67 (253.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A♠ A♦
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, SB raises to $0.40, BB folds, Hero raises to $1.30, SB calls $0.90

Flop: ($2.70) 7♦ 7♣ T♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.29, SB calls $1.29

Turn: ($5.28) 6♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.53, SB raises to $7.59, Hero calls $5.06 (I'm like nooooooooo dont call...........click call just to prove I can't be as unlucky as to run into something in a 4 bet pot on that board,,,,i expected to see TT tbh

River: ($20.46) 2♣ (2 players)
SB bets $11.64 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.48 and is all-in

Results: $25.42 pot ($1 rake)
Final Board: 7♦ 7♣ T♥ 6♦ 2♣
SB showed 8♥ 9♦ and won $24.42 ($11.75 net)
Hero showed A♠ A♦ and lost (-$12.67 net)

So you're still consistently under betting the pot. You're in a 4-bet pot deep, your opponent is going to have some kind of hand on that board unless he has AQ and is just giving up, and then it doesn't really matter what you bet, but Ax is unlikely. So bet the flop bigger. In a 3-bet pot w/ 100bb stack sizes, then that sizing is acceptable because you can still get it in by river.

Secondly, 4-bet larger. You're too deep to not make this a large value raise. This is really one of the biggest mistakes in the hand. If you don't 4-bet large here, you're allowing a lot more drawing hands that will put you in weird spots this deep. You'll win a small pot, but lose a large one more often than not w/ that kind of sizing.

Shove the turn. There's way more combos of worse hands that will still call (if he raised), than better ones. I don't love stacking off that deep with a one pair hand, but it's small stakes, and you still have QQ+, maybe JJ that will felt here.