Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[John A]

Classic, tilting hand,. I know I should fold the turn here, but calling a 4 bet with that garbage oop, give me a fing break.
I was already tilted before this hand after an all in suckout by a fish. At least I was semi sensible and had dropped down to 5nl deep.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05, $0.01 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $21.83 (436.6 bb) 31/16/30 loose and not very aggressive.
BB: $5.89 (117.8 bb)
MP: $5.78 (115.6 bb)
CO: $15.48 (309.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $12.67 (253.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A♠ A♦
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, SB raises to $0.40, BB folds, Hero raises to $1.30, SB calls $0.90

Flop: ($2.70) 7♦ 7♣ T♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.29, SB calls $1.29

Turn: ($5.28) 6♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.53, SB raises to $7.59, Hero calls $5.06 (I'm like nooooooooo dont call...........click call just to prove I can't be as unlucky as to run into something in a 4 bet pot on that board,,,,i expected to see TT tbh

River: ($20.46) 2♣ (2 players)
SB bets $11.64 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.48 and is all-in

Results: $25.42 pot ($1 rake)
Final Board: 7♦ 7♣ T♥ 6♦ 2♣
SB showed 8♥ 9♦ and won $24.42 ($11.75 net)
Hero showed A♠ A♦ and lost (-$12.67 net)

So you're still consistently under betting the pot. You're in a 4-bet pot deep, your opponent is going to have some kind of hand on that board unless he has AQ and is just giving up, and then it doesn't really matter what you bet, but Ax is unlikely. So bet the flop bigger. In a 3-bet pot w/ 100bb stack sizes, then that sizing is acceptable because you can still get it in by river.

Secondly, 4-bet larger. You're too deep to not make this a large value raise. This is really one of the biggest mistakes in the hand. If you don't 4-bet large here, you're allowing a lot more drawing hands that will put you in weird spots this deep. You'll win a small pot, but lose a large one more often than not w/ that kind of sizing.

Shove the turn. There's way more combos of worse hands that will still call (if he raised), than better ones. I don't love stacking off that deep with a one pair hand, but it's small stakes, and you still have QQ+, maybe JJ that will felt here.

 

[Figaroo2]

Great advice, both of the last posts thanks John.

 

[Figaroo2]

I only got one feedback on this hand in the forum and that was to check the turn. Do we agree?
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 14/11/2

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

Hero (SB): $25.62 (102.5 bb)
BB: $10.29 (41.2 bb)
UTG+1: $30.48 (121.9 bb)
UTG+2: $25.18 (100.7 bb)
MP1: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
MP2: $25.35 (101.4 bb) Villain is marked as a reg 354 hands, slightly on the tight side, fold to 3bet 80% fold to cbet 86%. 0% 4bet
MP3: $25.67 (102.7 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $27.26 (109 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T

T

3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.75, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BB folds, MP2 calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.25) 3

8

9

(2 players)
Hero bets $3.75, MP2 calls $3.75

Turn: ($12.75) J

(2 players)

Okay so we 3 bet because he folds too much to 3 bets and he hangs around. We c- bet because he folds to cbets too much and he hangs around.
Now we pick up an open ended draw.
I'm tempted to shove but I think we are behind here. As he has never 4bet before its likely he plays all his premium pairs this way.
Checking doesn't seem right, we have $19ish behind each.
Line suggestions please

 

[rhombus]

Great advice, both of the last posts thanks John.

+1 great advice on mine as well

 

[rhombus]

I only got one feedback on this hand in the forum and that was to check the turn. Do we agree?
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 14/11/2

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

Hero (SB): $25.62 (102.5 bb)
BB: $10.29 (41.2 bb)
UTG+1: $30.48 (121.9 bb)
UTG+2: $25.18 (100.7 bb)
MP1: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
MP2: $25.35 (101.4 bb) Villain is marked as a reg 354 hands, slightly on the tight side, fold to 3bet 80% fold to cbet 86%. 0% 4bet
MP3: $25.67 (102.7 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $27.26 (109 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T

T

3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.75, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BB folds, MP2 calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.25) 3

8

9

(2 players)
Hero bets $3.75, MP2 calls $3.75

Turn: ($12.75) J

(2 players)

Okay so we 3 bet because he folds too much to 3 bets and he hangs around. We c- bet because he folds to cbets too much and he hangs around.
Now we pick up an open ended draw.
I'm tempted to shove but I think we are behind here. As he has never 4bet before its likely he plays all his premium pairs this way.
Checking doesn't seem right, we have $19ish behind each.
Line suggestions please

If you are willing to just shove, think betting is best maybe $7.50 and call his shove if he has QQ KK AA.

The suggestion about checking I think is to realise your equity i.e. Bet then fold but no way can you fold. I agree with you about checking being bad as you want value from AQ AK

If he has KK or AA you have 10 outs, call it 9 in case he has QQ which only gives you 8 outs. so about 4/1which gives you about the right odds.

 

[John A]

Great advice, both of the last posts thanks John.

Yw... I hope it helps.

So what about BB defending ranges. We'll start with SB opens 3 BBs. What's our calling and 3-betting range?

 

[Figaroo2]

I've made the decision to cut right down on my play whilst I feel so tired. Since 10th July I have done crazy hours at work. Volume is a 3rd of what it is normally and when I'm playing I'm not playing well. Too much fit and fold and no patience, my brain literally doesn't want to think about working out, its all auto pilot. So its just the freerolls and a bit of study, I just got Moorman's book for my birthday. 52 this week.....
So I'll have a slow think about those ranges against the SB but they will be pretty wide. Something like a polarised 20% 3 bet range with some flat calling with some of the higher offsuit and lower suited broadway combos

 

[John A]

I only got one feedback on this hand in the forum and that was to check the turn. Do we agree?
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 14/11/2

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

Hero (SB): $25.62 (102.5 bb)
BB: $10.29 (41.2 bb)
UTG+1: $30.48 (121.9 bb)
UTG+2: $25.18 (100.7 bb)
MP1: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
MP2: $25.35 (101.4 bb) Villain is marked as a reg 354 hands, slightly on the tight side, fold to 3bet 80% fold to cbet 86%. 0% 4bet
MP3: $25.67 (102.7 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $27.26 (109 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T

T

3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.75, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BB folds, MP2 calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.25) 3

8

9

(2 players)
Hero bets $3.75, MP2 calls $3.75

Turn: ($12.75) J

(2 players)

Okay so we 3 bet because he folds too much to 3 bets and he hangs around. We c- bet because he folds to cbets too much and he hangs around.
Now we pick up an open ended draw.
I'm tempted to shove but I think we are behind here. As he has never 4bet before its likely he plays all his premium pairs this way.
Checking doesn't seem right, we have $19ish behind each.
Line suggestions please

I don't understand the underlined part. Any ways, as played I'm c/fing the turn. If he floats AK, this kind of opponent probably checks behind on the turn often enough. Anything else he's called on the flop kills you on the turn. There's nothing he's folding out.

Also, if he folds too much to 3-bets, why 3-bet? I don't get the logic. You have a solid valiue hand. He's tight and raising from somewhat early position. Why not call pre and play poker? Why push out his weaker range with a 3-bet? He's not folding out better ever. If you said he calls 3-bets too much, then I like it.

 

[icecold24k]

I am a little late to the party here but I am becoming more serious about bettering my play. I currently play at Microstakes and was wondering is it to late for me to join this study group or do I need to wait? What do I need to do to join?

 

[John A]

I am a little late to the party here but I am becoming more serious about bettering my play. I currently play at Microstakes and was wondering is it to late for me to join this study group or do I need to wait? What do I need to do to join?

Just download polished poker, it's free (link is in my signature below), And jump in at any time. Welcome...

 

[Figaroo2]

Also, if he folds too much to 3-bets, why 3-bet? I don't get the logic. You have a solid value hand. Why not call pre and play poker? Why push out his weaker range with a 3-bet? He's not folding out better ever. If you said he calls 3-bets too much, then I like it.

I understand what you are saying.
I would normally call with TT here, mainly because I don't want to get 4 bet and lose the equity of the hand.
In this hand playing TT out of position and without the initiative seems to be making the hand more difficult than it needs to be compared to just taking it down pre with a 3bet especially when he was folding to 3 bets around 80% if memory serves.
Same applies on the flop, fold to cbet 80%+. As this hand usually gets murky and difficult often with two overcards by the turn I'm happy to take it down pre or on the flop and get out of there.
Actually the fact that he is so predictable makes this an easy check fold on the turn does it not. On the other side of the coin I suppose if it hadn't been 3bet I might have seen a cheaper river card. Also note I'm trying to 3bet more generally and call a bit less so there is a bit of experimenting still going on in this area and I'm still trying to find the right balance.
For info I went back to check the result he had QQ

 

[Figaroo2]

playing from the BB

Ok so here is a hand from this evening.
Not a huge sample but our villain is a little loose aggressive and his steal is 83% so far , so we flat to keep in his weaker stuff and because so far he has folded to a couple of 3bets.

Is this better? Should we just keep raising on the flop? I wanted to see what he would do on the turn and his bet looks semi bluffly, along with his high aggression%, what do we think of the turn shove?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $23.38 (93.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $26.30 (105.2 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $25 (100 bb)
MP3: $26.53 (106.1 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $25.97 (103.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J♥ J♦
4 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, SB folds, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) T♦ 8♥ 7♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1, BTN raises to $3.57, Hero calls $2.57

Turn: ($8.74) 2♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $8.50, Hero raises to $21.98 and is all-in, BTN calls $13.15 and is all-in

River: ($52.04) 8♠ (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $52.04 pot ($2 rake)
Final Board: T♦ 8♥ 7♠ 2♣ 8♠
Hero showed J♥ J♦ and won $50.04 ($24.07 net)
BTN mucked T♣ 9♣ and lost (-$25.97 net)

 

[John A]

Ok so here is a hand from this evening.
Not a huge sample but our villain is a little loose aggressive and his steal is 83% so far , so we flat to keep in his weaker stuff and because so far he has folded to a couple of 3bets.

Is this better? Should we just keep raising on the flop? I wanted to see what he would do on the turn and his bet looks semi bluffly, along with his high aggression%, what do we think of the turn shove?

It's totally and completely different than the other hand if you're trying to compare it to that one. Here I'd prefer a 3-bet, but I don't mind the flat.

If he's loose and aggressive, then I'd just 4-bet the flop so you can easily shove blank turns. Why the small CR also?

 

[Figaroo2]

It's totally and completely different than the other hand if you're trying to compare it to that one. Here I'd prefer a 3-bet, but I don't mind the flat.
If he's loose and aggressive, then I'd just 4-bet the flop so you can easily shove blank turns. Why the small CR also?

Yes I agree its different in terms of position and ranges but not in terms of his fold to 3bet which is 100% so far (two folds checking his stats, that's why I posted the screenie of his stats bearing in mind we are talking about blind play at the mo)
I just don't like a 3bet here when he is 100% fold to 3bet so far and likely light on the button and even more likely to fold.
Its my style to rope a dope an aggressive player rather than get into raising wars pre with JJ,
I'd be saving my 3bets here for QQ+ and the weak end of the polarised range rather than a tricky value hand like JJ.
As his post flop agg is high I'm expecting him to bet the flop so the intention was to CR on the flop but his 1bb bet and re-raise threw me enough to check the turn and see what he was up to. My small CR was to be honest, lets think of the correct wording,,,, a 'confused pot sweetner'. I didn't stop to think about what he was repping it just confused me.
The blank turn and his rather obvious over agg semi bluff was the evidence I needed to gii on the turn against his range. He's not folding having committed that much and I'm not waiting for the river when he might miss his draws and give up.
JJ is sort of my cut off in this spot against this sort of player. I would 3bet JJ here against players who fold less to 3bets.

 

[John A]

Yes I agree its different in terms of position and ranges but not in terms of his fold to 3bet which is 100% so far (two folds checking his stats, that's why I posted the screenie of his stats bearing in mind we are talking about blind play at the mo)
I just don't like a 3bet here when he is 100% fold to 3bet so far and likely light on the button and even more likely to fold.
Its my style to rope a dope an aggressive player rather than get into raising wars pre with JJ,
I'd be saving my 3bets here for QQ+ and the weak end of the polarised range rather than a tricky value hand like JJ.
As his post flop agg is high I'm expecting him to bet the flop so the intention was to CR on the flop but his 1bb bet and re-raise threw me enough to check the turn and see what he was up to. My small CR was to be honest, lets think of the correct wording,,,, a 'confused pot sweetner'. I didn't stop to think about what he was repping it just confused me.
The blank turn and his rather obvious over agg semi bluff was the evidence I needed to gii on the turn against his range. He's not folding having committed that much and I'm not waiting for the river when he might miss his draws and give up.
JJ is sort of my cut off in this spot against this sort of player. I would 3bet JJ here against players who fold less to 3bets.

Fig... you have 58 hands on the guy (and who knows how many at that point). 100% fold to 3-bet is meaningless.

 

[rhombus]

with regard to stack sizes SPR etc just wondering when it becomes easy fold

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $9.85 (98.5 bb)
BB: $11.48 (114.8 bb)
UTG: $11.16 (111.6 bb)
MP: $10.95 (109.5 bb)
CO: $10.41 (104.1 bb)
BTN: $13.21 (132.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T

A

2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.90, BB folds, CO calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.90) A

T

K

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.30, CO raises to $3, Hero ????????

 

[Figaroo2]

River call efficiency

I saw a question about river call efficiency and I noticed it on the far right of the overall report on HM2.
I too don't understand exactly what it represents?
It would be interesting to know what level is a good level.

 

[John A]

with regard to stack sizes SPR etc just wondering when it becomes easy fold

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $9.85 (98.5 bb)
BB: $11.48 (114.8 bb)
UTG: $11.16 (111.6 bb)
MP: $10.95 (109.5 bb)
CO: $10.41 (104.1 bb)
BTN: $13.21 (132.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T

A

2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.90, BB folds, CO calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.90) A

T

K

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.30, CO raises to $3, Hero ????????

I don't have any exact equation for you on what's appropriate for every hand using Ed's little formulas because I don't agree with it 100%. It varies a lot depending on table stakes and opponents. But in general, at this level, if you're raised then you should just have a hand. I have no issue shoving this flop since AK will 4-bet a reasonable amount of time, and AJ/AQ might just donk raise here. It really 100% depends on the opponent in this spot.

 

[rhombus]

I don't have any exact equation for you on what's appropriate for every hand using Ed's little formulas because I don't agree with it 100%. It varies a lot depending on table stakes and opponents. But in general, at this level, if you're raised then you should just have a hand. I have no issue shoving this flop since AK will 4-bet a reasonable amount of time, and AJ/AQ might just donk raise here. It really 100% depends on the opponent in this spot.

Ok it was just a general question. Think SPR was about 4.5 before I bet 1.30.

If SPR is calculated before any action on the Flop. (Eff 8.95/Flop 1.90 ~ 4.7) what does it then become once a bet is made.

Is it just to calcualte whether a shove is good if called and what equity you need

i.e. 8.95+8.95+1.90 =19.80
100/(19.80/9.85 + 1) = 31.1% needed

or do you need to calcualte a new SPR once 1.30 has gone in lol

 

[rhombus]

I saw a question about river call efficiency and I noticed it on the far right of the overall report on HM2.
I too don't understand exactly what it represents?
It would be interesting to know what level is a good level.

couple of links which might help

River Call Efficiency shows you how much you win in a hand on average when you call - per dollar. If pot on river is $1.00 and opponent bets $1.00 and you call, you called $1.00 to win $2.00 in pot. If you win, river efficiency would show 2 here. If you lose, river efficiency shows 0 since you havent won anything by calling.

If you always faced PSB on river, then seeing River Efficiency at 2 would mean you won every time you called such bet.

If you face 1/2 PSB on river, and won every time you called, you would see River efficiency at 3. ( Call $1 to win $3)

http://forums.holdemmanager.com/general-support/438681-river-call-efficiency.html

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=197930

 

[John A]

I saw a question about river call efficiency and I noticed it on the far right of the overall report on HM2.
I too don't understand exactly what it represents?
It would be interesting to know what level is a good level.

It's the amount of dollars you call on the river vs. your return. It's a simple ratio. I think somewhere around 1.1+ is considered good.

 

[Figaroo2]

It's the amount of dollars you call on the river vs. your return. It's a simple ratio. I think somewhere around 1.1+ is considered good.

I dragged mine across in the report, these are my stats for this year, as you can see its in a $ amount rather than a ratio.
All I'm looking for is feedback as to whether or not I'm calling appropriately on the river.

John there is a guy posting in this thread asking for help after getting crushed, he starts ok then goes into freefall. I've tried but obviously your input would be valuable. Maybe a potential client?
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/100nl-journey-destroying-aggro-land-272012/

 

[rhombus]

where did you find your stats

Just looked at mine under Leakbuster Overall and can see River Call Efficiency but not the $ one.

Mines 0.97 so guess my assumptions were correct im a non believing fish lol

 

[rhombus]

It's the amount of dollars you call on the river vs. your return. It's a simple ratio. I think somewhere around 1.1+ is considered good.

in leakbuster it says 1.2-1.8

 

[rhombus]

above was for 6Max for FR loks like 1.2-1.9 although i hardly ever play FR