Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Figaroo2]

folding to 5 bet shove

Real borderline one this right in my gray area...comments welcome.

Full Tilt, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

CO: $5.67 (56.7 bb) 41 hands vp24 pf24 ag10 3b 15
Hero (MP2): $12.68 (126.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Ac Js
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, MP3 folds, CO raises to $1.20, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.80, CO raises to $5.67 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $5.75 pot
CO mucked and won $5.75 ($2.95 net)

In hindsight I wish I'd called as he went on to 3bet and shove a ton and was right aggro preflop with no real post flop skills.
This was a few hands after my previous posting same table. It felt like a tight fold especially when I was getting good odds. I have him marked not to 4 bet for next time.

 

[John A]

So, what are working on next?

Sorry, holiday hangover. I have lots of things in store for this thread. If you aren't crushing in the next couple of months, you can blame Figaroo2 for all your issues. Fair enough?

I want to close the 3-bet section out, and then we're going to go into 4-bet. Then I'm going to spell out an effective winning strategy. I've been thinking and writing about this for awhile now, and I'm going to list out all the common leaks I see when I coach. There's a ton of consistent ones.

 

[A9ofHearts]

Sorry, holiday hangover. I have lots of things in store for this thread. If you aren't crushing in the next couple of months, you can blame Figaroo2 for all your issues. Fair enough?

I want to close the 3-bet section out, and then we're going to go into 4-bet. Then I'm going to spell out an effective winning strategy. I've been thinking and writing about this for awhile now, and I'm going to list out all the common leaks I see when I coach. There's a ton of consistent ones.

I'm looking forward to it

 

[Fisi]

Sorry, holiday hangover. I have lots of things in store for this thread. If you aren't crushing in the next couple of months, you can blame Figaroo2 for all your issues. Fair enough?

Haha, that's fine with me

I want to close the 3-bet section out, and then we're going to go into 4-bet. Then I'm going to spell out an effective winning strategy. I've been thinking and writing about this for awhile now, and I'm going to list out all the common leaks I see when I coach. There's a ton of consistent ones.

That is great, looking forward

 

[John A]

John please can you check this hand and advise on river bet sizing

Full Tilt, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

MP2: $17.35 (173.5 bb) 61 hands vp 25 pf19 Ag 4.7 3b 16, appears to be a decent reg, he had played maybe 4 of the last 10 hands and won most
MP3: $9.37 (93.7 bb)
CO: $17.64 (176.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10.26 (102.6 bb) I had been playing tight 16/10 3b 4.5%

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Td Kd
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.80, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.75) Kc Ah Qs (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.90, MP2 raises to $2, Hero calls $1.10

Turn: ($5.75) 5h (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks

River: ($5.75) 2c (2 players)
MP2 checks, I'm not really sure what he has here, but the check must be a good sign. So it has to be a decent sized bet here for max pressure right? I wasn't sure whether full pot might have looked a bit bluffy which is why I went with around 70%
Hero bets $4.02, MP2 folds

Results: $5.75 pot ($0.28 rake)
Final Board: Kc Ah Qs 5h 2c
MP2 mucked and lost (-$2.80 net)
Hero mucked Td Kd and won $5.47 ($2.67 net)

Are you sure he's capable of folding something like AJ/AT? I mean, I think if you were planning on turning your hand into a bluff, and applying max pressure, this wasn't the scenario or way to play it. You want to be the person raising and having position, not calling a flop raise. But any ways, as played, since it's a rainbow flop then betting about 80% or more on the river as a bluff is ideal. Your opponent probably has a weak Ax, but just make sure you're picking your opponents really carefully. REALLY.

 

[John A]

Real borderline one this right in my gray area...comments welcome.

Full Tilt, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

CO: $5.67 (56.7 bb) 41 hands vp24 pf24 ag10 3b 15
Hero (MP2): $12.68 (126.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Ac Js
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, MP3 folds, CO raises to $1.20, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.80, CO raises to $5.67 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $5.75 pot
CO mucked and won $5.75 ($2.95 net)

In hindsight I wish I'd called as he went on to 3bet and shove a ton and was right aggro preflop with no real post flop skills.
This was a few hands after my previous posting same table. It felt like a tight fold especially when I was getting good odds. I have him marked not to 4 bet for next time.

Well, you can't fold once you put over 50% of effective stacks in. This is a pretty critical error. And against this guy who is 3betting a lot, I'd just call and look to get it in on a lot of flops.

 

[Rhinelander]

I'd like to take part in this study group. Is there anything else I have to do except for following the thread and read/study your book?

 

[John A]

I'd like to take part in this study group. Is there anything else I have to do except for following the thread and read/study your book?

It's open to join. You can participate here, ask questions from the book. Post hands of things you're attempting to try / change about your game, etc..

Welcome.

 

[sidgucci]

Did anyone watch the PCA live streaming yesterday? So impressed with the commentary from Isaac Haxton, Lex Velhuis, and Tom Hall.

The hand that I wanted to discuss was the battle between Mike "Timex" McDonald and Madis Muur. They are at the final table and 7 handed.

Madis Muur (Ac Ks) $7.3 million (Small Blind)
Timex (Qh Qd) $6.7 million (Button)

Blinds: $30k/$60k

Timex min raises from the button to $125k
Muur 3-Bets to $310k
Timex 4-Bets to $700k
Muur 5-Bets to 1.275 million
Times 6-Bet Shoves All-In
Muur Folds QQ preflop

With both players being so deep, does anyone else think Timex overplayed the AKo at these stack sizes? I compare this hand similarly to his KJ vs 99 when he was heads-up which ended up being the game changer and costing him the 2nd EPT title. Obviously long, long day and tournament and I'm sure fatigue plays a major factor.

 

[John A]

I didn't watch all of it. I rarely watch poker on TV honestly. I'm a little confused... does Muur have AK or Timex?

 

[A9ofHearts]

@JohnA could you please reply to my PM?

 

[sidgucci]

I didn't watch all of it. I rarely watch poker on TV honestly. I'm a little confused... does Muur have AK or Timex?

Got the hands reversed.......Timex has the AKo and Muur was holding QQ

rewatching the stream again today and later in the broadcast Isaac Haxton said he liked the play of Timex and had no problem with his re-raises. Haxton's only criticism was on Muur investing more than 20% of his stack and then folding and essentially turning the 3rd best hand in poker into a bluff.

 

[John A]

Got the hands reversed.......Timex has the AKo and Muur was holding QQ

rewatching the stream again today and later in the broadcast Isaac Haxton said he liked the play of Timex and had no problem with his re-raises. Haxton's only criticism was on Muur investing more than 20% of his stack and then folding and essentially turning the 3rd best hand in poker into a bluff.

It's a little too hard to judge spots like this honestly. That's partly why I don't watch TV poker. There are so many other things occurring before this "critical" hand happens. I think in general, yes, calling would be better, but I'm sure he has his reasons.

Thanks for posting it though.

 

[dj11]

At most FT's, showing the willingness to get it all in is necessary. AK vs XX is one of those spots where you can show that willingness. QQ vs XX should also be one of those spots.

At almost any FT I have been at I would never have folded the QQ, but I might have folded the AK.....

caveat.....I am not a pro.........

 

[sidgucci]

It's a little too hard to judge spots like this honestly. That's partly why I don't watch TV poker. There are so many other things occurring before this "critical" hand happens. I think in general, yes, calling would be better, but I'm sure he has his reasons.

Thanks for posting it though.

At most FT's, showing the willingness to get it all in is necessary. AK vs XX is one of those spots where you can show that willingness. QQ vs XX should also be one of those spots.

At almost any FT I have been at I would never have folded the QQ, but I might have folded the AK.....

caveat.....I am not a pro.........

Agree with you regarding the challenge of trying to analyze one particular hand among a MTT where there are so many other variables/hand history to consider. Nevertheless, I was surprised to see Timex have the willingness to get it all in with AK in position with such a deep stack at that stage of the tournament.

 

[sidgucci]

Quick Question and/or confirmation needed with regards to tournament play and applying pressure with 3Bets & 4Bets by stack sizes.

I know from reading Elky's Raisers Edge that with 30 - 40 bb you should rarely call a reraise. Therefore, if I apply the 3-Bet Quasi Range and use this approach in position or defend from the blinds, I should really be targeting this same stack size because it will essentially be putting my opponent to a Shove/Fold decision since their flat calling range should be extremely narrow.

Is this the correct line of thinking? Are there any good resources out there that address this type of tournament theory?

 

[swingro]

I put my stats here for comments and thanx in advance for your comments.
BTW JhonA. sorry about the licence talk on the other post. I will buy it soon myself .

 

[John A]

Quick Question and/or confirmation needed with regards to tournament play and applying pressure with 3Bets & 4Bets by stack sizes.

I know from reading Elky's Raisers Edge that with 30 - 40 bb you should rarely call a reraise. Therefore, if I apply the 3-Bet Quasi Range and use this approach in position or defend from the blinds, I should really be targeting this same stack size because it will essentially be putting my opponent to a Shove/Fold decision since their flat calling range should be extremely narrow.

Is this the correct line of thinking? Are there any good resources out there that address this type of tournament theory?

Correct. You need to find sizes that make sense based on your commitment threshold. It's a math thing. I'm sure you've heard of the 1/3rd rule. In general, if you get 1/3rd of effective stacks in, you have to call with just about any 2. Of course there are exceptions, but it's a rough and dirty rule.

 

[sidgucci]

Correct. You need to find sizes that make sense based on your commitment threshold. It's a math thing. I'm sure you've heard of the 1/3rd rule. In general, if you get 1/3rd of effective stacks in, you have to call with just about any 2. Of course there are exceptions, but it's a rough and dirty rule.

Yep, I've known for the last year or so that if I have to make a call that requires 30% or more of my stack, the decision comes down to shove/fold.

The key "ah hah" moment is applying your 3-Bet Quasi Range lesson which has widen my hand range and applying pressure to my opponents in tournaments whenever I have a deep enough stack to resteal and get them to this shove/fold decision.

I've been saying this since day one from reading your ebook ---- THANK YOU! I can't express how much your e-book has motivated me to improve. Since reading your e-book, it has given me confidence. I purchased and practice quite a bit with the Ace Poker equity Trainer. I have been studying and analyzing my past MTT/Cash hand histories and really putting in the time away from the felt. I am confident all of this hard work will lead me to become a profitable poker player after several years of grinding with nothing to show for it. Trust Your Struggle!

 

[John A]

I put my stats here for comments and thanx in advance for your comments.
BTW JhonA. sorry about the licence talk on the other post. I will buy it soon myself .
View attachment 56632

No problemo man. Trust me, it will be worth it, especially when Leak Buster 4 is out.

As far as your stats... It's a really really small sample, but... You can 3-bet way more from the CO and button. You want most of your 3-bets coming from position, and right now the button isn't bad, but your 3-betting from the blinds is more than the CO and pretty close to your button numbers.

Your 4-bet range is really low too. I don't know how your games run, but there has to be some opponents who are 3-betting to much, and you can add in some 4-bet bluffs. I do have a video on this as well.

Your aggression is really low from every position except early. It's especially clear that you're not being aggressive enough from the button because aggression and turn cbetting is really low.

It's kind of hard to get really really good information from such a small sample. You ran well because over 26% wtsd and almost 58% w$sd means you got pretty hot.

Your Vpip/pfr ratio look pretty good though, as does your flop cbetting. Most of it is coming from position, except for the BB, which is pretty normal.

Play some more hands though and post another stat section.

 

[John A]

Yep, I've known for the last year or so that if I have to make a call that requires 30% or more of my stack, the decision comes down to shove/fold.

The key "ah hah" moment is applying your 3-Bet Quasi Range lesson which has widen my hand range and applying pressure to my opponents in tournaments whenever I have a deep enough stack to resteal and get them to this shove/fold decision.

I've been saying this since day one from reading your ebook ---- THANK YOU! I can't express how much your e-book has motivated me to improve. Since reading your e-book, it has given me confidence. I purchased and practice quite a bit with the Ace Poker Equity Trainer. I have been studying and analyzing my past MTT/Cash hand histories and really putting in the time away from the felt. I am confident all of this hard work will lead me to become a profitable poker player after several years of grinding with nothing to show for it. Trust Your Struggle!

You're welcome man! Always appreciate your kind words. I'm glad you've gotten a lot out of it. I was really hoping the workbook would be pretty close to done by now. I have so many projects going on that it stalled now. I have something pretty big going on that is taking a lot of time. BUT... it will get done soon.

Keep me updated on your progress. It's always good to hear!

 

[4BlaBla]

AQo equity vs 3Bet calling range

At the start of CHapter 7: 3-Betting you are saying that "removing a lot of your opponent's small pairs and marginal hands increases your equity with a high un-paired hand like AQo, but decreases with a big pair (JJ)".

The thing is that in your equity simulator AQo has :

57.64% vs calling a CO open of 29.5 and
48.97 % vs CO 3-Bet calling range,

So the equity is decreasing actually. I'm a little bit confuse here.

 

[John A]

Is this in the kindle version or regular pdf? There was some error here I fixed in the revision. I can't remember off the top of my head. Let me know though and I'll re-check it.

 

[4BlaBla]

Is this in the kindle version or regular pdf? There was some error here I fixed in the revision. I can't remember off the top of my head. Let me know though and I'll re-check it.

pdf version, page 74, first paragraph

 

[John A]

Thanks. I'll take a look at this again. I do remember changing this during one of the edit revisions, so I'll make sure it's completely clear.